1589 replies to this topic

[statman]

Finally some good news! The FIA is planning to outlaw the "party mode". Official letter has been sent apparently.

 

"the performance settings used by teams in qualifying must be the same as those used in the race. The requirement could be enforced using the existing parc ferme regulations which restrict set-up changes between the two sessions."

 

Rencken:

 

https://www.racefans...ttings-in-2021/

Edited by statman, 12 August 2020 - 13:11.

[Myrvold]

Ok. Focusing on the right things as usual I see.

[F1matt]

Good luck to the FIA enforcing this one. 

[Diablobb81]

I have to admit i have no clue wtf FIA is on about.

Unless they mean that you could use only one setting for quali and race. Because if you have different settings you can just not use quali setting in race and still comply. So the "clampdown" achieves nothing (might be the FIA motto).

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 August 2020 - 13:18.

[TomNokoe]

Banning something that's been perfectly legal and without question in F1 for decades, and was far more prominent last year, but of course it was the "wrong team" benefitting

Good luck policing software that may or may not be used.

One thing I've learnt over the hybrid era, if you try and stop Mercedes, they will come back at you twice as hard.

What's next? Banning teams who produce X amounts of downforce

Edited by TomNokoe, 12 August 2020 - 13:18.

[Marklar]

Well, just use the highest mode in the race once, then it's enabled for qualifying, no?

Or do teams have to race on the same engine mode all weekend?

 

 

Banning something that's been perfectly legal and without question in F1 for decades, and was far more prominent last year, but of course it was the "wrong team" benefitting

Good luck policing software that may or may not be used.

One thing I've learnt over the hybrid era, if you try and stop Mercedes, they will come back at you twice as hard.

What's next? Banning teams who produce X amounts of downforce

this

and when this also wont help the narrative that tHe FiA dOeS nOtHiNg tO sToP mErCeDeS will continue to live on 

[Diablobb81]

and when this also wont help the narrative that tHe FiA dOeS nOtHiNg tO sToP mErCeDeS will continue to live on

Yes, everything is about stopping Merc even if it comes 6 years later.

Sensitive bunch.

FIA sure tried to stop Merc all these years.

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 August 2020 - 13:23.

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t see the point of this rule change or how it benefits anyone.

[Marklar]

Yes, everything is about stopping Merc even if it comes 6 years later.

Sensitive bunch.

FIA sure tried to stop Merc all these years.

FRIC ban, the trick suspension ban in 2017 and to some extent the aero rules in 2017 were a attempt to stop Mercedes. All quite natural of course, it's just that many in this forum dont like to admit that (so far) there was nothing that could stop them. And I dare to say this wont either. Given how this era went it wouldnt surprise me if they end up making Mercedes stronger that way.

[statman]

Unless they mean that you could use only one setting for quali and race. Because if you have different settings you can just not use quali setting in race and still comply. So the "clampdown" achieves nothing (might be the FIA motto).

 

This forum thought an FIA clampdown on Ferrari also meant nothing, guess it did.

 

You use the same in quali and race.

 

If you don't use a party mode in quali, you don't use it in the race --> tighter quali

If you use a party mode in quali, you will use it in the race --> detrimental to an engine over a race distance (unless you're going to race with the foot off the throttle)

[Clatter]

Finally some good news! The FIA is planning to outlaw the "party mode". Official letter has been sent apparently.

 

"the performance settings used by teams in qualifying must be the same as those used in the race. The requirement could be enforced using the existing parc ferme regulations which restrict set-up changes between the two sessions."

 

Rencken:

 

https://www.racefans...ttings-in-2021/

 

OK, so what about the scenario where they keep the mode, and also use it during the race? Would just a few laps use mean it's no longer a quali mode?

[Diablobb81]

If you use a party mode in quali, you will use it in the race --> detrimental to an engine over a race distance (unless you're going to race with the foot off the throttle)

But here is the problem. Will FIA force them to use quali mode in the race? For how long (1, 10 , 50 laps)?

[Clatter]

This forum thought an FIA clampdown on Ferrari also meant nothing, guess it did.

 

You use the same in quali and race.

 

If you don't use a party mode in quali, you don't use it in the race --> tighter quali

If you use a party mode in quali, you will use it in the race --> detrimental to an engine over a race distance (unless you're going to race with the foot off the throttle)

 

Is there a limit on the number of modes?

[statman]

But here is the problem. Will FIA force them to use quali mode in the race? For how long (1, 10 , 50 laps)?

 

the whole race

 

race = quali, quali=race

[Marklar]

This forum thought an FIA clampdown on Ferrari also meant nothing, guess it did.

 

You use the same in quali and race.

 

If you don't use a party mode in quali, you don't use it in the race --> tighter quali

If you use a party mode in quali, you will use it in the race --> detrimental to an engine over a race distance (unless you're going to race with the foot off the throttle)

Well, there are three different interpretation here

1.) Is it "I use mode X in qualifying, thus I also have to use each of those modes also in the race" -> this wont change anything
2.) Is it "I use mode x in qualifying over a distance of Y %, this means I also have to use it over the same Y % distance in the race"  -> this could be indeed interesting as you can actively gamble on using more power for less reliability, but I cant imagine how you can even do it without messing up (actually now thinking about it, knowing F1 it's surely this then)
3.) Is it "I have to use mode X and only mode X in qualifying and race" -> this one will also not change anything because the teams will then just readjust their engine modes and the team with the strongest one will likely still have the strongest one, what it could change though is the reliability of the engines in general

[statman]

Is there a limit on the number of modes?

 

It's pretty simple

 

If you use Mode 1 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 1 for the entire race

If you use Mode 2 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 2 for the entire race

If you use Mode 3 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 3 for the entire race

etc.

 

So it comes down to teams to decide what is efficient or not. As you can see when Merc take a pole, they immediately have to dial back the settings after crossing the line, because the engine had a "kick up the backside" during that lap.

[ArchieTech]

But teams have lots of modes they use during the race which they switch between. Remember Lando's onboard from Austria where he was instructed to use various combinations of Scenario 7, Scenario 8 and Overtake modes.

 

Unless the FIA are outlawing changing modes during the race I do not see how they can write the regulation to cover what they're trying to ban. What's the practical difference between having an engine mode that's used sparingly during the race, but switched on for your whole qualifying lap?

[Clatter]

Well, there are three different interpretation here

1.) Is it "I use mode X in qualifying, thus I also have to use each of those modes also in the race" -> this wont change anything
2.) Is it "I use mode x in qualifying over a distance of Y %, this means I also have to use it over the same Y % distance in the race"  -> this could be indeed interesting as you can actively gamble on using more power for less reliability, but I cant imagine how you can even do it without messing up (actually now thinking about it, knowing F1 it's surely this then)
3.) Is it "I have to use mode X and only mode X in qualifying and race" -> this one will also not change anything because the teams will then just readjust their engine modes and the team with the strongest one will likely still have the strongest one, what it could change though is the reliability of the engines in general

 

No2 wouldn't have much effect. They likely only use the party mode for 1 or 2 laps, so the number of race laps would be insignificant. They could also use the mode when they are in cruise mode and maintaining position, so it wouldn't be particularly harmful to the engine. The only way I can see it working is if they only have the one mode available at all times. How many modes do they currently have?

[Flyhigh]

I don’t see the point of this rule change or how it benefits anyone.

Didn´t you just watch the Silverstone Grand Prix where in qualy Mercedes were like over a second faster than everyone else, no contest, and in the race, Verstappen was able to beat them, showing an amazing disparity in performance?  To me this is a good a rule, so many things have to be the same in qualy and the race, tyres in q2, etc. Why let teams just run wild with party engine modes creating all sorts of disparities to the race. 

And people complain about this too, whatever FIA does people will complain. 

[Clatter]

It's pretty simple

 

If you use Mode 1 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 1 for the entire race

If you use Mode 2 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 2 for the entire race

If you use Mode 3 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 3 for the entire race

etc.

 

So it comes down to teams to decide what is efficient or not. As you can see when Merc take a pole, they immediately have to dial back the settings after crossing the line, because the engine had a "kick up the backside" during that lap.

 

I agree, but that's a bigger change than just saying "no quali mode".

[TomNokoe]

It's pretty simple

 

If you use Mode 1 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 1 for the entire race

If you use Mode 2 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 2 for the entire race

If you use Mode 3 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 3 for the entire race

etc.

 

So it comes down to teams to decide what is efficient or not. As you can see when Merc take a pole, they immediately have to dial back the settings after crossing the line, because the engine had a "kick up the backside" during that lap.

 

But teams have lots of modes they use during the race which they switch between. Remember Lando's onboard from Austria where he was instructed to use various combinations of Scenario 7, Scenario 8 and Overtake modes.

 

Unless the FIA are outlawing changing modes during the race I do not see how they can write the regulation to cover what they're trying to ban. What's the practical difference between having an engine mode that's used sparingly during the race, but switched on for your whole qualifying lap?

 

I'd be amazed if it was statman's interpretation. That has many more effects than just qualifying modes.

[Gareth]

Didn´t you just watch the Silverstone Grand Prix

I just watched the Sliverstone GP where the performance on Sunday for Merc was limited by the tyre life, not engine modes.

 

Did you watch a different one?

[Gareth]

But teams have lots of modes they use during the race which they switch between. Remember Lando's onboard from Austria where he was instructed to use various combinations of Scenario 7, Scenario 8 and Overtake modes.

 

Unless the FIA are outlawing changing modes during the race I do not see how they can write the regulation to cover what they're trying to ban. What's the practical difference between having an engine mode that's used sparingly during the race, but switched on for your whole qualifying lap?

Agreed - unless this is a ban on engine modes fullstop, I don't see how it works.

 

But then I can't see how they could bring a ban on engine modes in under the guise of existing parc ferme rules, as the article indicates the FIA thinks it can.

[Marklar]

No2 wouldn't have much effect. They likely only use the party mode for 1 or 2 laps, so the number of race laps would be insignificant. They could also use the mode when they are in cruise mode and maintaining position, so it wouldn't be particularly harmful to the engine. The only way I can see it working is if they only have the one mode available at all times. How many modes do they currently have?

its different from team to team. Merc has about 16 engine modes, and for each of them another 10 sub modes each or something lol

 

 

Didn´t you just watch the Silverstone Grand Prix where in qualy Mercedes were like over a second faster than everyone else, no contest, and in the race, Verstappen was able to beat them, showing an amazing disparity in performance?  To me this is a good a rule, so many things have to be the same in qualy and the race, tyres in q2, etc. Why let teams just run wild with party engine modes creating all sorts of disparities to the race. 

And people complain about this too, whatever FIA does people will complain. 

Mercedes' advantage in quali doesnt only come from the engine though. They have the most efficient race engine too (which is why I think this rule change will backfire badly lol). It's largely about the tyres, and let's be honest the last Silverstone race was a outlier due to the tyres. The races before Silverstone they were pulling huge gaps by the first pitstop and then turned the engine way down.

[statman]

Well, there are three different interpretation here

1.) Is it "I use mode X in qualifying, thus I also have to use each of those modes also in the race" -> this wont change anything
2.) Is it "I use mode x in qualifying over a distance of Y %, this means I also have to use it over the same Y % distance in the race"  -> this could be indeed interesting as you can actively gamble on using more power for less reliability, but I cant imagine how you can even do it without messing up (actually now thinking about it, knowing F1 it's surely this then)
3.) Is it "I have to use mode X and only mode X in qualifying and race" -> this one will also not change anything because the teams will then just readjust their engine modes and the team with the strongest one will likely still have the strongest one, what it could change though is the reliability of the engines in general

 

1.) You say mode X, but then you say "each of those modes" You qualify with a certain mode, which you then you have to use in the race. No more, no less. That's also the idea of the parc ferme rules they mention. You're sort of stuck.

2.) You mean equating quali runs as a percentage over the length of a race? That would be unhelpful, then you would get into sort of fanboost type of stuff. I don't read that in the article.

3.) What do you mean by readjust? Not able to change it is how the FIA plan to regulate it under Parc Ferme rules. And they will have some sort of monitoring tool to determine the output of the engines, parameters etc.

[dissident]

What's the point of adding layers upon layers of rules?

 

This adds nothing whatsoever to the sport. Let the teams use their engines as they please.

[Requiem84]

Sigh, this will negatively impact the races as well.

 

If you can only run 1 engine mode in the race, overtaking will be much harder. The strategic use of engine modes in the race is what makes the races more dynamic. If you want to overtake, you can use those higher engine modes etc.

 

Austria 2019 would have never happened with these new rules for instance...

[dissident]

It's pretty simple

 

If you use Mode 1 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 1 for the entire race

If you use Mode 2 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 2 for the entire race

If you use Mode 3 in quali, you will be stuck in Mode 3 for the entire race

etc.

 

So it comes down to teams to decide what is efficient or not. As you can see when Merc take a pole, they immediately have to dial back the settings after crossing the line, because the engine had a "kick up the backside" during that lap.

 

But a qualy mode is more than one setting.

 

A qualy mode consists of many different things:

 

- ICE setting

- Deployment strategy

- Recovery setting

 

... and other stuff involving the MGU-H.

[Marklar]

1.) You say mode X, but then you say "each of those modes" You qualify with a certain mode, which you then you have to use in the race. No more, no less. That's also the idea of the parc ferme rules they mention. You're sort of stuck.
2.) You mean equating quali runs as a percentage over the length of a race? That would be unhelpful, then you would get into sort of fanboost type of stuff. I don't read that in the article.
3.) What do you mean by readjust? Not able to change it is how the FIA plan to regulate it under Parc Ferme rules. And they will have some sort of monitoring tool to determine the output of the engines, parameters etc.

You dont qualify only with one engine mode tho, they usually run different engine modes in Q2 than in Q3 for example.

With re-adjusting I mean that if it was only one engine mode they would re-adjust their engine modes before it to still get the maximum out of it, given that Merc has the most powerful and efficient engine I can already tell you what the outcome likely will be.

I'm not sure if your interpretation is correct, because then it's not a quali mode clampdown but a general engine mode clampdown which has way more implications than only qualifying.

[dissident]

Sigh, this will negatively impact the races as well.

 

If you can only run 1 engine mode in the race, overtaking will be much harder. The strategic use of engine modes in the race is what makes the races more dynamic. If you want to overtake, you can use those higher engine modes etc.

 

Austria 2019 would have never happened with these new rules for instance...

 

Plus the teams will want to run the engines as hard as possible which means further reduced running.

[Myrvold]

Didn´t you just watch the Silverstone Grand Prix where in qualy Mercedes were like over a second faster than everyone else, no contest, and in the race, Verstappen was able to beat them, showing an amazing disparity in performance?  To me this is a good a rule, so many things have to be the same in qualy and the race, tyres in q2, etc. Why let teams just run wild with party engine modes creating all sorts of disparities to the race. 

 

Let's say it was all down to engine-modes.

 

Wouldn't Silverstone 2 be very boring without the "party mode" in qualifying? Would it not be a bigger chance of everyone qualifying in their race pace spot and thus make for a worse race? I mean, in theory, having way bigger differences between qual and race should lead to people qualifying out of race pace position, while, having race and qual being very similar will lead them to qual in race pace position?

[genius83]

So, FIA is opening another Can of Worms for finding something fishy.

[Danyy]

Sigh, this will negatively impact the races as well.
 
If you can only run 1 engine mode in the race, overtaking will be much harder. The strategic use of engine modes in the race is what makes the races more dynamic. If you want to overtake, you can use those higher engine modes etc.
 
Austria 2019 would have never happened with these new rules for instance...

I don’t see how it will affect overtaking because as it stands today both cars can use engine modes to counter so it cancels itself out anyway.

[MasterOfCoin]

I don't see the point, a faster engine is still a faster engine...qualy mode or not....

[smitten]

And if it rains? And where does an engine mode end and a gearbox mode start?

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a knee-jerk reaction to something that isn't a problem and will just add more complexity to the rules.  We should be making them simpler, not harder for the casual viewer to understand.

[ANF]

Have customer teams been able to use the same engine performance settings as Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault?

Edited by ANF, 12 August 2020 - 14:23.

[Requiem84]

I don’t see how it will affect overtaking because as it stands today both cars can use engine modes to counter so it cancels itself out anyway.

 

In theory yes, in practice car A might be able to run the harder engine mode and car B might not at that specific moment in the race. 

 

Going back to Austria 2019, Verstappen won there because the Honda did much better in terms of cooling and he could run the PU very hard that race, allowing him to catch everyone and overtake them all. 

 

Mercedes had to back off their PU's and also Ferrari couldn't run full beans.

 

By allowing the different PU modes, the strategies and use will be diversified, leading to more differences of pace in the race. 

[ATM]

Didn´t you just watch the Silverstone Grand Prix where in qualy Mercedes were like over a second faster than everyone else, no contest, and in the race, Verstappen was able to beat them, showing an amazing disparity in performance? To me this is a good a rule, so many things have to be the same in qualy and the race, tyres in q2, etc. Why let teams just run wild with party engine modes creating all sorts of disparities to the race.

And people complain about this too, whatever FIA does people will complain.

It’s a good idea but policing it is going to be even harder than the budget cap.

[renzmann]

I've read the discussion here and obviously, this could mean anything.

 

Still, I think it's good they are doing this (no matter what it is they are doing exactly). The cars are exactly the same in 2021, so if they don't want a copy of 2020, they better change the circumstances of the season.

[Nemo1965]

I have a better idea: ban qualifying steering wheels. Every team and F1-driver is allowed to qualify with whatever setting they have, but once in parc-fermé all steering wheels have to be replaced with a FIA-approved minimum-steering wheel. Brake-balance, fuel setting, diff setting, what have you, all the buttons we (or the race-world) feel part of real racing, but no buttons for engine modes and 'click mode 144 B 6'.

[Danyy]

But a qualy mode is more than one setting.
 
A qualy mode consists of many different things:
 
- ICE setting
- Deployment strategy
- Recovery setting
 
... and other stuff involving the MGU-H.

And? You will have to stick to whatever your ICE, deployment, recovery and mgu-h setting was for qualifying for the race. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[P123]

I don’t see the point of this rule change or how it benefits anyone.

Merc clearly have the best mode, so may help close up things in qualifying?

 

Given though the teams use a variety of modes, I'm not sure it will actually have an impact as it's likely that such modes are still available for the races at present should they choose to use them.

[Danyy]

Merc clearly have the best mode, so may help close up things in qualifying?
 
Given though the teams use a variety of modes, I'm not sure it will actually have an impact as it's likely that such modes are still available for the races at present should they choose to use them.

If you could still use a higher engine mode in the race this ban wouldn’t make sense. I think the point is making teams run one mode throughout the race and qualifying.

[Chillimeister]

Have customer teams been able to use the same engine performance settings as Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault?

 

I thought the answer to that (in theory) was 'yes', but I'm not convinced that the Merc, Ferrari, and Honda customers have all the bells and whistles available to the works teams. So if this an attempt to level the playing field a little for the customer teams, I suppose its a good thing. Difficult to frame the regs though, they made a hash of the brake ducts and you would have thought those were straightforward compared to engine modes.

[w1Y]

Is this because ferrari lost theirs so now fia are helping them.

Bit of an odd thing to focus on

[P123]

If you could still use a higher engine mode in the race this ban wouldn’t make sense. I think the point is making teams run one mode throughout the race and qualifying.

Yeah, think you're right, although removes a fairly big strategic element for all and will likely be a huge advantage for whoever has the more efficient engine.  Goodbye to late race charges such as Norris's in Austria too.

[as65p]

What's the point of adding layers upon layers of rules?

 

This adds nothing whatsoever to the sport. Let the teams use their engines as they please.

 

Yep. I never got why they make it all so complicated and impossible to police anyway. Give them x kg of fuel per race, a bit less each season, and then let engineering genius puzzle out how to make the most of it. Easy to police, no cheating scandals.

[Aaaarrgghh]

Great. More unnecessary restrictions.

Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 12 August 2020 - 14:44.

[Muppetmad]

A solution to a problem that never existed: the epitome of FIA intervention.

[statman]

But teams have lots of modes they use during the race which they switch between. Remember Lando's onboard from Austria where he was instructed to use various combinations of Scenario 7, Scenario 8 and Overtake modes.

 

Unless the FIA are outlawing changing modes during the race I do not see how they can write the regulation to cover what they're trying to ban. What's the practical difference between having an engine mode that's used sparingly during the race, but switched on for your whole qualifying lap?

 

Yes, they use different modes during the race now but as far as I know they don't use quali modes during the race. I just googled and regarding the Merc engine I found:

 

The Mercedes engine uses three modes during the weekend, one for free practice, one for qualifying and one for the the race. Within these 3 modes various sub-settings can be used for different situations.

 

 

The sticking point from that letter for me is the phrase: the performance settings used by teams in qualifying must be the same as those used in the race

 

Keyword here: same. Which lead me to believe to my earlier described scenario.