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No more Rolls-Royce V8; any competition history ?


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#1 mariner

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 10:22

The RR , then Bentley alloy V-8 has ended its production run after 60 years, the world's longest running engine according to Bentley.

 

It  went from a  200 bhp naturally aspirated engine to a 505 bhp twin turbo unit with production by Cosworth along the journey.

 

But how many racing cars actually used it? 

 

I remember the Attilla G7 vcar which I am pretty sure had a RR engine as the UK press made a big thing of it.

 

Of course you would be sort of silly  to try to develop the RR engine when cheap US v-8's with unlimited tuning options were almost falling from the sky but did anybody beyond Attilla ever try please?


Edited by mariner, 16 August 2020 - 10:49.


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#2 sabrejet

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 12:14

Most famously the 1963 Marina sports racer used a Rolls V8 and is still around, still R-R powered.



#3 mariner

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 12:30

Big oops, for some reason I may ahve confused the Marina  and the Attila - I think 



#4 RCH

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 20:38

I seem to recall reading somewhere that BRM were planning to develop the Rolls Royce V8 for their Can-Am car but would use Chevvy units in the meantime... Presumably a ploy to imply an all British Can-Am car?



#5 BRG

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 21:18

The RR , then Bentley alloy V-8 has ended its production run after 60 years, the world's longest running engine according to Bentley.

 

It  went from a  200 bhp naturally aspirated engine to a 505 bhp twin turbo unit with production by Cosworth along the journey.

 

How do you know this stuff??  I thought RR only ever said that their engine's HP was 'adequate' !

 

Kitchiner planned a RR powered F5000 in 1972 apparently.  But it came to nothing.

 

I wonder if RR actively blocked efforts to use thier egnine in motor sport?  They were a bit precious about their image, famously objecting to John Lennon's psychedelic liveried car.



#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 16 August 2020 - 22:00

How do you know this stuff??  I thought RR only ever said that their engine's HP was 'adequate' !

 

Kitchiner planned a RR powered F5000 in 1972 apparently.  But it came to nothing.

 

I wonder if RR actively blocked efforts to use thier egnine in motor sport?  They were a bit precious about their image, famously objecting to John Lennon's psychedelic liveried car.

If Bonhams are to be believed, the Marina was quietly retired after pressure from the company.

 

https://www.bonhams..../13241/lot/334/

 

They were more than a bit sniffy about the Silver Shadow that ran in the 1970 World Cup Rally, threatening the dealer who sold it with losing his franchise.

 

https://www.motorspo...n-the-mountains

 

And they famously sued John Dodd for a trademark violation when he used an RR radiator on The Beast:

 

https://www.classicd...ted-rolls-royce



#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 03:58

Wasn't it about six litres?

 

So for F5000 it would need to be destroked as the best method of turning it into a 5-litre. But I suspect it might have been designed as a high-torque engine and therefore would be pretty small in the ports.



#8 john aston

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 06:27

I believe that the actual power figures had to be supplied by the manufacturer - was it to the German authorities ? But presumably the period press was still in such patriotic thrall to Rolls Royce that it would have been Bad Form  to have published them . I  dunno about 'adequate' , 200bhp from 6.2  litres - that's not even Austin Cambridge bhp/litre '

 

I have seen a Rolls V8  in competition though - in the engine room of a shonky old Shadow at the banger racing at Barnard Castle last year . I am no RR buff , but it was an unedifying sight . As is banger racing in general,  really - I always feel like I should wash my hands after my rare visits  



#9 jcbc3

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 08:57

.... I  dunno about 'adequate' , 200bhp from 6.2  litres - that's not even Austin Cambridge bhp/litre '
 
...


OT: The 8.2 litre Cadillac of 1976 had a grand output of 190 hp.

#10 Terry Walker

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 09:26

The RR V8 engine was of course not meant for sheer performance, but for the ability to waft a car weighing way over two tonnes without mechanical stress or effort, and to pull tall gearing. Max power came in around 4,000 rpm I recall, but mountains of torque, which is what was needed. 200 bhp was about right for the early 6.23 litre editions, not much more for the first 6.75 litre versions due to all the old style pollution abating stuff that was fitted.  Mine has a pair of 2-inch SUs, same size was fitted to the 2-litre Rover 2000TC I once owned.(!)  Bentley Turbos have raced in the UK.



#11 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 09:59

Decades ago I saw one of those engines in bits. Peter Nightingale a one time member here was rebuilding one. 

It did not look anything special inside. my observation was then that it was a slugger and not a performer.  Probably a 70s one as SUs seemed to feature!

5000?  A bloody slow one if it had happened. They are 4.1" by 3.6". Thanks Wikipedia! They would have had to run a very short stroke. And found some heads that flowed as well.

And fitting that grille may have caused earo issues!



#12 D-Type

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 13:45

"Enough" power?  Apparently they quoted figures for the marine version.
And to keep the record straight - John Dodd's "Beast" had a R-R Meteor engine not a Merlin.  The Meteor was an unsupercharged, derated version of the Merlin used in tanks etc. 



#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 13:58

That saved about a thousand 5/16" UNF nuts...

 

Lee, at 4.1" bore, they'd need about 2.9" stroke (a guess, I admit) so that wouldn't be so bad. But I'm sure the ports would hamper it dreadfully.



#14 RogerFrench

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 16:23

R-R weren't happy with the Sultan of Johore, whose Shadow was painted and decorated like a Malaysian cop car, complete with siren, loudspeaker, roof lights etc. I saw it several times, usually at the golf club.

#15 D-Type

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 18:32

R-R weren't happy with the Sultan of Johore, whose Shadow was painted and decorated like a Malaysian cop car, complete with siren, loudspeaker, roof lights etc. I saw it several times, usually at the golf club.

If it was the Sultan of Johore, wouldn't this be "one of his Rolls-Royces"?



#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 20:19

If it was the Sultan of Johore, wouldn't this be "one of his Rolls-Royces"?

According to this page, the Johore royal car collection includes more than forty Royces ...



#17 opplock

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 22:09

R-R were not amused when a Palmerston North businessman ordered that they fit a towbar to his new car. Local legend had it that the letter sent in reply politely informed him that no car would ever leave the R-R factory with such an accessory attached. 



#18 john aston

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 06:20

And now they are the company  who will pimp your ride in snakeskin and mink , with diamond highlighting , if your budget is in inverse proportion to your taste,.Which is foreseeable amongst some of its clientele .  Anyway it is still  better than some pompous arse at Crewe  telling  you that  a towbar was beyond the pale .... and what did they make of John Lennon's psychedelic respray of his RR I wonder ?


Edited by john aston, 18 August 2020 - 06:21.


#19 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:00

I've seen a couple of Bentley Turbos race at the annual BDC bash at Silverstone, I think both owned by brothers? 



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#20 Stephen W

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:42

Gas Monkey Garage in Dallas removed the suspension on a Roller they bought for a couple of thousand dollars and fitted it with an airbag system.



#21 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 08:08

I'm sure power was "adequate" for their primary usage, however I can't imagine it was anywhere near desirable for motor racing.



#22 Roger Clark

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 09:00

And now they are the company  who will pimp your ride in snakeskin and mink , with diamond highlighting ,

They are a 17 year old company with no connection to the past apart from a licence to use a name and a few other trademarks. 



#23 2F-001

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 10:20

I think that's rather the point, isn't it? It's a traditional doctrine that's had it's day.

 

And we've seen a 30's Bentley with a towbar hauling a current day race car - a far more practical attitude!   :yawnface:

 

It always seems a little awkward when a manufacturer feels it can dictate what someone does with a item they have bought and own; say, for example, a clothing and accessories brand taking a dim view of the type of people who sport their products and patterns - having gladly taken their money beforehand without caveat. 



#24 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 10:40

It's a little-known fact that at one point after they purchased the bankrupt Bentley company, Rolls Royce did actually consider returning the marque to competition. In 1938 the 4½ litre V12 Lagonda was gaining road car sales from Bentley and in October of that year Earl Howe used one of Lagonda's demonstrators, which already had 40000 miles on the clock, to set off what would become something of a duel, averaging just over 101mph in an hour at Brooklands, despite having to change a blown tyre during the run. His fastest lap was clocked at 108 and he apparently averaged 105 in one 21-lap stint. Bentley may also have been a bit miffed when Dick Seaman - who did of course already have Lagonda connections - took the Duke of Kent on a high speed run round Donington Park in a V12 Lagonda before the GP. Sid Ivermee had been running at Brooklands at the same time as Howe, in an older 6-cylinder Lagonda, and had averaged 98 mph.

 

Alan Good then announced at Christmas that Lagonda would return to Le Mans in 1939 - the team to be managed by none other than WO Bentley! Seaman and Howe were originally announced as two of the drivers, but that was eventually vetoed by Mercedes Benz (although it seems Dick wasn't all that keen). Rolls Royce's response was to send the Embiricos Bentley to be extensively road tested on some of the fastest European motor roads of the day - and it was then enthusiastically written up in The Autocar. In February it was also used in a one-hour endurance run at Montlhéry; driven by the company's French agent Walter Sleator it managed 107.42mph. Amongst the few spectators was George Eyston, who had been approached by Rolls Royce with a view to him possibly running a Bentley team at Le Mans to oppose the Lagondas, although the short time scale would defeat him, just as it nearly did Lagonda - one of the cars they raced had never turned a wheel before it set off from the factory for the cross-Channel ferry and both were still being finished in the Le Mans paddock!

 

Meanwhile, Bugatti had got involved and in early June, Robert Benoist, in what was described as a stock T57C, averaged 113.46mph at Montlhéry in an hour. Not to be outdone, Eyston responded by taking the Embiricos to Brooklands the following month and upping the one hour figure to no less than 114.62mph, with one lap estimated at 120. Rolls Royce were sufficiently encouraged by this to lay preliminary plans for a team of similar sports saloons to run at La Sarthe in 1940 ...



#25 BRG

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 11:32

R-R were not amused when a Palmerston North businessman ordered that they fit a towbar to his new car. Local legend had it that the letter sent in reply politely informed him that no car would ever leave the R-R factory with such an accessory attached. 

I seem to recall that when the first Porsche 911 Turbo came out, the handbook said that no tow hook could be fitted as the car was not intended for towing.

 

Although with the turbo lag and sudden power boost of those days, towing might have been an interesting activity.  Oops, the trailers come off!

 

 .... and what did they make of John Lennon's psychedelic respray of his RR I wonder ?

"John Lennon bought a 1964 Mulliner Park Ward Phantom V, finished in Valentines black. Everything was black except for the radiator, even the wheels. Lennon asked for the radiator to be black as well but Rolls Royce refused."    Pictures here

 

Gas Monkey Garage in Dallas removed the suspension on a Roller they bought for a couple of thousand dollars and fitted it with an airbag system.

They also molested a Ferrari F40 (bought as a wreck) in an attempt to 'improve' it.   Texans, eh, what can you do with them?



#26 jcbc3

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 21:12

So, as the Rolls Royce engine disappear, the XK reappear: https://media.jaguar...xk-engine-block



#27 Stephen W

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 07:02

Many years ago a large council in the North West were selling a Rolls Royce mayoral car. At the auction a local garage were the winning bidder. The garage owner contacted Rolls Royce asking about springing and upgrading the rear springs in particular as he wanted to convert the car to a recovery tow truck. The story goes that a representative of the company rang up and made an appointment to see the garage owner and when he arrived purchased the car because "Rolls Royce do not make tow trucks".



#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 07:34

Many years ago a large council in the North West were selling a Rolls Royce mayoral car. At the auction a local garage were the winning bidder. The garage owner contacted Rolls Royce asking about springing and upgrading the rear springs in particular as he wanted to convert the car to a recovery tow truck. The story goes that a representative of the company rang up and made an appointment to see the garage owner and when he arrived purchased the car because "Rolls Royce do not make tow trucks".

They might not have made them but ... circa 1948, Bell's Garage, Kingston.gettyimages-500286141-2048x2048.jpg



#29 Macca

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 08:39

Barry Sheene had a Shadow registered BS7 which he used to tow a caravan round Europe in the mid- to late ‘70s for his paddock accomodation at bike GPs (at a time when some privateer riders in the lesser classes were still sleeping in Transit vans).

Paul M

#30 Allan Lupton

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 12:02

Whilst the V8 engine that is the subject of this thread may not have been much used (or much use) in competitions, let it not be forgotten that in 1906 the Hon C.S. Rolls drove a Rolls-Royce to victory in the Tourist Trophy.

Rolls was a sporting gentleman and it is tempting to speculate about the competition potential of the Rolls-Royce company, had he not been killed aviating in 1910. In due course Henry Royce certainly provided a suitably competitive engine for the Schneider Trophy aeroplanes.



#31 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 02:28

Gas Monkey Garage in Dallas removed the suspension on a Roller they bought for a couple of thousand dollars and fitted it with an airbag system.

A You tuber fitted an LS Chev in one,, and welded up the star gears in the diff.

Potential drift or burnout car!



#32 Michael Ferner

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 07:59

Burnout car? Is that for people suffering from emotional exhaustion? I can't imagine these people need a special car!


Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 August 2020 - 08:01.


#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 10:07

So what's the feenes definition of a drift car then?

 

And does it fit the RR tradition?



#34 jcbc3

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 10:25





#35 BRG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 10:46

The only time I ever drove a RR was in the car park of a Heathrow Airport hotel.  It had a gravel surface and I was happily sliding the Roller round when I looked up to see the horrified faces of several hotel guests staring out of their windows at the unedifying  sight. 

 

We were there for the start of some event or other and we also ran down to Hounslow to get lunch for the rest of the team.  More horrified glances from passers-by as we double-parked it outside McDonalds while one of us popped in to get a bunch of takeaways.


Edited by BRG, 21 August 2020 - 10:47.


#36 Fatgadget

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 11:34

The only time I ever drove a RR was in the car park of a Heathrow Airport hotel.  It had a gravel surface and I was happily sliding the Roller round when I looked up to see the horrified faces of several hotel guests staring out of their windows at the unedifying  sight. 

 

We were there for the start of some event or other and we also ran down to Hounslow to get lunch for the rest of the team.  More horrified glances from passers-by as we double-parked it outside McDonalds while one of us popped in to get a bunch of takeaways.

Did the owner of said Roller know what you were up ?



#37 BRG

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Posted 21 August 2020 - 15:14

Did the owner of said Roller know what you were up ?

A friend brought it along.  He worked at H R Owen at the time.  I think it was probably  a trade-in, if the exalted end of the market in those days had such plebeian practices.



#38 doc knutsen

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 10:09

So, as the Rolls Royce engine disappear, the XK reappear: https://media.jaguar...xk-engine-block

A snip at just over fourteen thousand... Hey, I have got four 3.8 cylinder blocks acquired over the years, sitting in my workshop. I'm rich! :rotfl:



#39 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 11:19

Burnout car? Is that for people suffering from emotional exhaustion? I can't imagine these people need a special car!

Far better than Banger racing which seems to be the end of quite a few. 

Or Clarkson parking one in his pool!

A couple of Hells Angels I know have had them as drive cars as well. 

I believe one of them took it to a drag street meet.

People call Caddys land yachts, The same is due to big Brit prams!



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#40 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 11:25

A snip at just over fourteen thousand... Hey, I have got four 3.8 cylinder blocks acquired over the years, sitting in my workshop. I'm rich! :rotfl:

For those bucks you can buy a lot of aftermarket Chevs. The way people have fixed oil leaks, at least here in Oz for decades.

All you have to do then is fix Lucas,, the prince of darkness.

One presumes RR are afflicted with that as well. I have seen a couple with one bright and one dull headlight.



#41 mariner

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 14:13

It's a bit of topic but the picture of the RR breakdown crane above reminds me of a quirk in the UK "construction and use" rules plus MOT regulations , which exempts mobile cranes from many things including an MOT .

 

They are supposed to be kept below 60 mph but as I read the regs you could probably take a CanAm car with a big wing out back , and using wet tyres register it as "mobile crane" as long as you fitted a block and tackle able to lift loads from the  wing! 



#42 elansprint72

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 16:31

It's a bit of topic but the picture of the RR breakdown crane above reminds me of a quirk in the UK "construction and use" rules plus MOT regulations , which exempts mobile cranes from many things including an MOT .

 

They are supposed to be kept below 60 mph but as I read the regs you could probably take a CanAm car with a big wing out back , and using wet tyres register it as "mobile crane" as long as you fitted a block and tackle able to lift loads from the  wing! 

Continuing off topic (like much of the above!) when I was a kid, 60's, in Didsbury, Manchester UK; we had a weekly delivery of fresh eggs from a local chicken farmer; he used a huge 1920's RR hearse, with the bit that carries the coffin removed so, in effect, a van. We were near the start of his delivery round and it looked "full", so the back of this thing might have contained many hundreds of eggs; he used this vehicle to avoid breakages of his product!

 

Back on topic: Karl Ludvigsen wrote an excellent book on the V8, although my contacts at Bentley engineering had several quibbles regarding absolute accuracy. 

https://speedreaders...by_k_ludvigsen/

 

During the latter-day development they had, one or two, "grenade experiences" but were determined to make it work; which it eventually did. I can't help with the competition aspect.



#43 BRG

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 17:47

...so the back of this thing might have contained many hundreds of eggs; he used this vehicle to avoid breakages of his product!

Shirley he would have been better off using a 2CV?  They were made for the sole purpose of transporting eggs.



#44 opplock

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 19:09

It's a bit of topic but the picture of the RR breakdown crane above reminds me of a quirk in the UK "construction and use" rules plus MOT regulations , which exempts mobile cranes from many things including an MOT .

 

They are supposed to be kept below 60 mph but as I read the regs you could probably take a CanAm car with a big wing out back , and using wet tyres register it as "mobile crane" as long as you fitted a block and tackle able to lift loads from the  wing! 

 

Keeping below 60 isn't a problem with the Marden Motor Club's Model B Ford breakdown truck. Good for 45 on a downhill stretch. The classification as mobile crane makes life easier in many respects. I do like the idea of a CanAm crane.    



#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 19:12

Shirley he would have been better off using a 2CV?  They were made for the sole purpose of transporting eggs.

I thought it was so the farmer could take his wife to market on Saturday and his pig to church on a Sunday ...  ;)



#46 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 19:31

I thought it was so the farmer could take his wife to market on Saturday and his pig to church on a Sunday ...  ;)

Was his wife named Shirley?



#47 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 19:44

It's a bit of topic but the picture of the RR breakdown crane above reminds me of a quirk in the UK "construction and use" rules plus MOT regulations , which exempts mobile cranes from many things including an MOT .

 

They are supposed to be kept below 60 mph but as I read the regs you could probably take a CanAm car with a big wing out back , and using wet tyres register it as "mobile crane" as long as you fitted a block and tackle able to lift loads from the  wing! 

The RR in the picture also has no tax disc or number plate. Like many similar vehicles, it was presumably fitted with trade plates when it ventured out of the yard.



#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 August 2020 - 22:29

And then there was Peter Hitchin... and still is, in fact...

 

Some time in the sixties he drove a 1920s Rolls Royce hearse to Australia.

 

From what he told me the other week, it's the only possession he has left after a bout of illness and other problems.



#49 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 17:16

The Beast was mentioned above. I've just seen a post on Facebook from his son that its creator John Dodd passed away last week. Here's John, with the car in its original form. I only saw it once, as a static display at a radio control demonstration at Kempton Park racecourse in 1974. There was also an amazing RC Vulcan being flown ...

 

319310252-3412161962404905-5708166242001



#50 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 17:37

Dodd was only part-creator of ‘The Beast’. Paul Jameson built the rolling chassis and installed the RR Meteor engine, but sold the car to Dodd before fitting a body. Dodd then constructed a body and finished the whole thing off. Paul Jameson then went on to build this:

CF72-A7-C5-410-E-4074-A897-55792-E6-DEE4

which did have a proper RR Merlin in it.