60 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

I'm currently getting hammered on Racing Comments because I quoted something I heard on Sky recently. At some point, I'm certain I heard it said that at one point in history, races could not be run on circuits with a lap time less than one minute.

Can someone bail me out with the period when this rule was in force? And when did it end?

[Rob G]

I vaguely remember that as well, but I can't remember when or where it applied. At first I was thinking Dijon-Prenois between the 1974 and '77 races, but it might have been when they went back to Kyalami, or it might have been some other time and place, maybe much, much later.

Edited by Rob G, 29 August 2020 - 18:53.

[ensign14]

First time at Dijon, practice was under a minute for half the field.  Next time they went there, there was an extension.

 

Might not have been a hard and fast rule, but perhaps someone had a word that short circuits were a bit Mickey Mouse.

[BRG]

Perhaps there isn't a rule as such, just a decision to not race at such short tracks.  Unless a global pandemic disrupts all the carefully laid plans

[2F-001]

I thought there had been a rule (post 72 at least) that the circuit couldn't be less than two miles long (rather than a lower lap time limit) - but I don't know quite where I got that from...

 

Short Dijon was just over, as is 'extended' Monaco. Although I think the use of the land reclaimed from the harbour to enable the run from Tabac to re realigned (and skirt the other side of the swimming pool) was as much to do with providing space for wider, safer pitlane facilities than actually lengthening the circuit (?).

Edited by 2F-001, 29 August 2020 - 19:41.

[cpbell]

I'm currently getting hammered on Racing Comments because I quoted something I heard on Sky recently. At some point, I'm certain I heard it said that at one point in history, races could not be run on circuits with a lap time less than one minute.

Can someone bail me out with the period when this rule was in force? And when did it end?

I thought it was still in effect until I heard that the expected pole time on the Bahrain Outer Circuit was 55 seconds...

[E1pix]

I have a faint recollection that circuits had to be 2.5 miles or greater to hold a F1 Grand Prix... but it could have been two.

I may be confusing this with motorbike GPs, though. I do recall that Laguna Seca in California had to extend their original-layout circuit from 1.9 miles to host FIM motorcycle races. I think it went to 2.2 miles which lends credibility to the “two-mile” minimum, at least for bikes.

[GazChed]

Wasn't the Grand Prix loop at Donington Park constructed to increase the lap length from just under two miles to two and a half miles and allow Tom Wheatcroft to apply to hold a Grand Prix ? From the re-opening of the circuit in 1977 it held European Formula Two championship races but to hold a World Championship Grand Prix I am sure it had to be extended.

[john aston]

I think it was a convention rather than a rule in period . Doubtless there is now a 56 page Directive on such matters

[pete53]

I have a faint recollection that circuits had to be 2.5 miles or greater to hold a F1 Grand Prix... but it could have been two.

I may be confusing this with motorbike GPs, though. I do recall that Laguna Seca in California had to extend their original-layout circuit from 1.9 miles to host FIM motorcycle races. I think it went to 2.2 miles which lends credibility to the “two-mile” minimum, at least for bikes.

A 2.5 mile  minimum would have ruled out Monaco, so it must have been less if there was any regulation on lap distance.

[GazChed]

Looking at a list of Grand Prix circuit lengths, I think a limit on the length of road circuits was brought in sometime in the eighties but didn't apply to street circuits due to their slower average speeds. No road circuit shorter than 2.5 miles/4 kilometres has held a World Championship Grand Prix since the mid eighties e.g. Brands Hatch, Dijon, Jarama.

[E1pix]

That seems right, the street circuit clause also applying to Long Beach when hosting F1.

[Risil]

Wasn't the Grand Prix loop at Donington Park constructed to increase the lap length from just under two miles to two and a half miles and allow Tom Wheatcroft to apply to hold a Grand Prix ? From the re-opening of the circuit in 1977 it held European Formula Two championship races but to hold a World Championship Grand Prix I am sure it had to be extended.

I'm fairly sure that the Donington Park circuit was extended at the FIM's request in order to host the motorcycle Grand Prix in 1987. That would go along with what E1Pix remembers about Laguna Seca. Having strict rules about lap lengths is also a bit more logical for bike racing, as the top Grand Prix riders from that period frequently complained in the strongest terms about the difficulty and safety of lapping much slower riders on production race bikes.

[68targa]

I am sure there is a rule that specifies a minimum track length must be 3.5 kms (2.178) miles for F1 WDC races.  So the forthcoming Bahrain alternative circuit just makes it at 3.5 and a bit kms. 

According to F1's own website they predict a lap time of around 55 secs. 

[Barry Boor]

Which is exactly why I brought it up on Racing Comments.

 

Personally, I find that ludicrous.  Mercedes will be lapping people after ten laps!

[68targa]

Yes, and they are going to call it a 'Grand Prix' - they should have held back to back races at Spa and add 10 laps. It is an emergency year after all. !

[wolf sun]

...or Francorchamps anti-clockwise!

[john aston]

If they want  a new venue , handy for most teams , and which has run  F2 , F5000 and domestic F1 I reckon Mallory Park. Sub 30secs lap for Lewis? Better than poxy Bahrain , and far better bacon cobs 

[Henk Vasmel]

Which is exactly why I brought it up on Racing Comments.

 

Personally, I find that ludicrous.  Mercedes will be lapping people after ten laps!

Surprisingly, the length of the lap does not play a role in when cars are lapped. If a car is 5% slower than the leader, it will be lapped after 20 laps, never mind the length of these laps. With a one minute lap, that will be after 20 minutes and with a two minute lap, it will be after 40 minutes, so you will see lapping sooner and more often with shorter laps, How many laps are planned for Bahrain? Must be around a 100, I would guess.

[Barry Boor]

Allegedly, 87.

[opplock]

Surprisingly, the length of the lap does not play a role in when cars are lapped. If a car is 5% slower than the leader, it will be lapped after 20 laps, never mind the length of these laps. With a one minute lap, that will be after 20 minutes and with a two minute lap, it will be after 40 minutes, so you will see lapping sooner and more often with shorter laps, How many laps are planned for Bahrain? Must be around a 100, I would guess.

 

That only works if cars do not spread out on 1st lap. If you start 20 cars somewhere like Lydden Hill the last place man is 1/3 of a lap behind after 1 lap.    

[wolf sun]

A GP at Lydden...now there’s a thought. That would tempt me back to watching Effwun again.

[Michael Ferner]

There definitely used to be a minimum lap length for motorcycle Grand Prix racing, I think it was 3.5 kms. It wasn't always strictly adhered to, however, as I recall they raced at Nogaro Jarama, Karlskoga, even at the Nürburgring Betonschleife! But some tracks were lengthened to conform to this rule, I think Misano was, along with Donington and Laguna Seca.

[Sterzo]

The FIA used to issue a "yellow book," summarising the rules. I have one from the seventies which, to my rage and shame, I can't find in the loft. If anyone has a neat row in their library, they would answer the question. I recall one guideline on circuit design, "corners should not interfere with each other," which would surely render the Nordschleife illegal.

[Tim Murray]

I’ve had a look through a couple of my FIA Yellow Books (1971 and 1979). I couldn’t find any reference to minimum circuit length, but I might have been looking in the wrong sections. The 1979 book is the most recent I have.

[Sterzo]

Ah, thank you - sorry to send you on the proverbial wild goose chase.

[Tim Murray]

Not at all - I did the search yesterday but didn’t post then as I hadn’t found anything useful.

[BRG]

 I recall one guideline on circuit design, "corners should not interfere with each other," 

What does that even mean?

 

I still suspect that, rather than a written rule, it was just a gentlemen's agreement between the FIA and the promoter that tracks shouldn't be too short or too long.  The former so that the massive F1 grid ( as it was once upon a time) wouldn't trip over themselves, and the latter so that the fans saw the cars more often - which was one of the reasons for shortening Hockenheim, wasn't it?

[MartLgn]

I'm currently getting hammered on Racing Comments

Barry, what on earth are you doing on racing comments? you don't belong there?

[Blue6ix]

Back then in Dijon-Prenois and Kyalami they actually had too short lap times which for the latter was one of the many reasons why they didn't return to race there in 1986 or in 1987.

 

Even though Kyalami had a race contract for those years in 1985 when it was most famously terminated about right after or shortly after the 1985 South African Grand Prix.

 

And Dijon-Prenois of course had that problem for a year earlier in 1985 after the year of 1984 even with it's already extended track when comparing that to the original one back in the 1970s.

[cpbell]

Barry, what on earth are you doing on racing comments? you don't belong there?

Anyone with any sort of historical perspective who knows that modern F1 isn't the be-all-and-end-all that most RC posters think it is get  hammered over there.

[opplock]

Back then in Dijon-Prenois and Kyalami they actually had too short lap times which for the latter was one of the many reasons why they didn't return to race there in 1986 or in 1987.

 

 

 

In 1985 the pole time at Kyalami was 62.366 seconds. Track length 2.55 miles (from Autocourse). The lack of an SA Grand Prix from 86 was surely due to the anti Apartheid movement finally catching up with F1. Renault and Ligier both boycotted the 1985 GP as required I believe by French law. 

[Blue6ix]

In 1985 the pole time at Kyalami was 62.366 seconds. Track length 2.55 miles (from Autocourse). The lack of an SA Grand Prix from 86 was surely due to the anti Apartheid movement finally catching up with F1. Renault and Ligier both boycotted the 1985 GP as required I believe by French law. 

 

Yes it was so.

 

Though if held in 1986 and up to the year of 1987 as per contract, the pole time was already very close to be under a minute so if F1 would've remain in there, they most likely could have had a track extension.

 

Though from which part, that remained as a mystery.

 

And eventually track got worse by some extent with it's new circuit layout, being said only be a little better than Monaco and Hungaroring in those early 1990s.

 

It even had a seldomly used nickname back then and that was Jerez of Africa/African Jerez.

 

Because those two tracks were meant to be medium-fast circuit and with really good and right setup those two had some possibility to actually be quite fast.

 

And because of the supposed lack of overtaking opportunities, but when they weren't that bad like Hungaroring or especially Monaco.

 

Albeit that meaning really hadn't coining on both of them.

 

Especially starting from the 1994 for Jerez and because 'Nieu' Kyalami from the years of 1992-1993 just hadn't that right amount speed spirit with it's quite short sprinting straights and somewhat cramped and tight corners.

 

Unlike it's predecessor 'Oud' Kyalami.

 

Though 'Nieu' Kyalami were good to be used for as a testing purpose track back then.

 

And finally they didn't had their supposed 1994 South African Grand Prix, because of the promotor bankruptcy issues or possible one of that since race fee was apparently too high even for their meagre scale and when compared for the Grand Prix at time.

Edited by Blue6ix, 03 September 2020 - 15:07.

[E1pix]

What does that even mean?

For one, I took it to mean a corner cannot share a common wall that ties the outsides of two turns together.

Say a car crashed into such a wall. The safety crews would effectively be against what is now the outside wall shared by cars aiming at it from the other side. There’d be no place for marshals to mitigate issues from a location anywhere near the wall, either.

Edit: Another example is if a car plows into a shared wall, it’d send chards and bits and chunks into oncoming traffic.

But the worst of it? Where would photographers be able to shoot from? ;-)

Then again, much more likely is I’m dead wrong, and it’s just a reference to lending a friend one epic Pink Floyd album.

Edited by E1pix, 03 September 2020 - 15:38.

[Sterzo]

I think it was a poorly-worded, badly-translated attempt to say that corners should be separated by straights, rather than existing in an unbroken sequence. It's what happens when you set a group of people the task of coming up with some rules. Boy, will they come up with rules, whether you want them or not. Fortunately, everyone ignored it.

[MCS]

There was of course a tiny little circuit called Longridge once upon a time.  A lap was less than half a mile and just ten starters were allowed.  It made for some great racing and a Formula One BRM P153 was the lap record holder.

 

See Peter McFadyen's site:  https://petermcfadye...-geoff-lambert/

[LucaP]

I think it was a poorly-worded, badly-translated attempt to say that corners should be separated by straights, rather than existing in an unbroken sequence. It's what happens when you set a group of people the task of coming up with some rules. Boy, will they come up with rules, whether you want them or not. Fortunately, everyone ignored it.

I think it means there should be some space between two corners in the sense that if you go off at turn 1, don' hit cars running through Turn 9 for example

[absinthedude]

Anyone with any sort of historical perspective who knows that modern F1 isn't the be-all-and-end-all that most RC posters think it is get  hammered over there.

 

A considerable number of RC posters think that 2020 is the "worst season evaaah", while at the same time claiming that no season prior to 2000 counts. I do post there, but they're a strange lot. Today someone claimed that nobody misses the Brabham team.

 

I recall the general belief that there was a rule regarding track length but I do not remember reading a rule. I always remember in the 80s that Monaco got an exemption but any new tracks had to be 2.5 miles long. 

 

Though I am rather looking forward to the "outer Bahrain circuit"....it will be something different for modern F1.

Edited by absinthedude, 04 September 2020 - 18:18.

[E1pix]

Thanks Sterzo and Luca, I guess we haven’t enough info regarding what was meant there.

Luca’s comment brings something to consider to mind. We had a karting incident in Colorado that surely applies to hazards of bits of a circuit facing each other. A rear wheel sheared off of a kart, bounced a good 100 yards, and sure enough hit another competitor I used to race with squarely on his helmet.

The poor guy languished in vegetation for close to a year, but finally died. Some called it “a blessing” but that’s a view I personally grapple with.

RIP, Rich Vito.

[LucaP]

Yes, that's what I meant, karting tracks are what came to mind exactly. Many seems to have that issue.

Vito - what a beautiful name (edit: whoops, must have been the surname)

Edited by LucaP, 04 September 2020 - 21:05.

[john aston]

A considerable number of RC posters think that 2020 is the "worst season evaaah", while at the same time claiming that no season prior to 2000 counts. I do post there, but they're a strange lot. Today someone claimed that nobody misses the Brabham team.

 

 Funny lot on other forums too . I can understand that if you are under 30 ,and most of your motorsport experience is sitting on your arse in front of a big TV , your historical perspective is likely to be paper thin . But the phenomenon I've mentioned recently  of " chronological snobbery " then kicks in - the belief that everybody and  everything - drivers, racing , teams etc  - is better, smarter and more gifted now than at any time in the  past , and that any personal testimony to the contrary is dismissed  as rose tinted.fake memory .   I am then told that races were rubbish because their wikipedia research shows that the gap between cars was greater than now and that some  of the drivers were hopeless -oh hold on, that was on here wasn't it .....?

Edited by john aston, 05 September 2020 - 07:59.

[Roger Clark]

If we’re talking about short lap times in the World Championship, would the Indianapolis 500 be a contender?  Lap speeds in the late 1950s We’re in the high 140s which would a very little over a minute. 

[Collombin]

Fastest leading lap in the 1960 Indy race was 1:01.59.

Hurtubise did a 1:00.16 qualifying lap but his run was much quicker than anything anyone else did. The one minute barrier didn't fall until 1962.

[absinthedude]

 Funny lot on other forums too . I can understand that if you are under 30 ,and most of your motorsport experience is sitting on your arse in front of a big TV , your historical perspective is likely to be paper thin . But the phenomenon I've mentioned recently  of " chronological snobbery " then kicks in - the belief that everybody and  everything - drivers, racing , teams etc  - is better, smarter and more gifted now than at any time in the  past , and that any personal testimony to the contrary is dismissed  as rose tinted.fake memory .   I am then told that races were rubbish because their wikipedia research shows that the gap between cars was greater than now and that some  of the drivers were hopeless -oh hold on, that was on here wasn't it .....?

 

Oh yes, the rose tinted glasses that I must wear.....then I point out that my video collection of old F1 races is rivalled only by FOM....and how I do regularly watch them, so it's not just rose tinted glasses. I've nothing against avocado toast but this recent notion of chronological snobbery is most odd. I did start watching F1 very young, aged 5 in 1978...and at my first opportunity I took books out from the library to learn about the history of F1...appropriately enough starting with a book on the motor car published in 1979 which had a large section on motor racing from the 1890s to 1978. Were I young today, of course Wikipedia would be my first port of call but I'd also be wanting to hear from the more mature posters on forums who remember past decades. 

 

One of my more interesting experiences at a kid was growing up on the same road as Ted Davis who had been test rider for Vincent motorcycles. I cannot claim to have known him well but when I was 10 or so he noticed my dad's three wheeled Morgan and came over to wax lyrical about what it was like to test the powerful bikes on tracks. As a child I wanted to ask him so much but he kept himself to himself quite a lot, but on the occasion of the 1993 Donington grand prix (by which time I was 20)  he sought me out specifically because he knew I'd be taping all the coverage and there'd been a piece on pre-war Donington he wanted to see. He talked a bit about the track and pointed out a sadly rusting set of Vincent bikes in his shed. I was just thrilled as a young man to have the chance to talk first hand to someone who had been there, and done that. Very occasionally he'd still don leathers and take a quick ride around the neighbourhood into the mid 90s for sure. 

 

I genuinely wonder if today's typical RC poster might simply dismiss someone like Mr. Davis as an old fogey. 

[cpbell]

I've nothing against avocado toast...

I have.  Avocados are a mistake.  

[10kDA]

 

I genuinely wonder if today's typical RC poster might simply dismiss someone like Mr. Davis as an old fogey. 

With no inclination to dig beneath the surface, I believe that's exactly what they would conclude. I see this attitude toward the past in many fields of interest, almost always from observers and rarely from participants. Usually when someone's individual rubber meets the road they realize generations of predecessors have been there, done that, and what was discovered is now part of current knowledge and practice.

[Dick Dastardly]

On RC a few years back, there was a thread about Spa....comments about having La Source hairpin just after the start...so I posted they should re-position the start / finish to where it used to be....between La Source and Eau Rouge.....the people who replied had obviously no idea of how Spa used to be....claiming my post to be ****ing stupid and they'd never hold the starts from there   

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 05 September 2020 - 13:38.

[absinthedude]

On RC a few years back, there was a thread about Spa....comments about having La Source hairpin just after the start...so I posted they should re-position the start / finish to where it used to be....between La Source and Eau Rouge.....the people who replied had obviously no idea of how Spa used to be....claiming my post to be ****ing stupid and they'd never hold the starts from there   

 

It is rather sad....I am reminded of "Old Tom Robertson" by The Byrds. A song about a once famed silent film director living his old age among children who just thought him a strange old man. "No-one cared to find out what he was all about".

 

Over lockdown I took many walks in local countryside....using 17 different cameras taking in 7 film formats plus glass plates....because that's how I roll.... I was photographing some horses in a field on an 1899 Kodak and a current Nikon DSLR and someone connected with the horses' owner couldn't fathom why.....in the end I just asked "why not?". 

 

The lack of respect for history and even comparatively recent past is rather shocking. A teacher I work with plays 90s music in her classroom....and the kids think it's 60s. But there is hope. I was playing Led Zeppelin's "When The Levee Breaks" a few months ago and a teenage boy came along singing along to it.

 

But I digress. F1 has visited a huge variety of tracks in it's long history. Certainly in recent years (post Jarama and Brands Hatch) 2.5 miles minimumor 4Km seems to be the norm...with only Spa now at 4 miles. 

Edited by absinthedude, 05 September 2020 - 16:23.

[FLB]

Nivelles-Baulers was another short lap, altought the lap times were over one minute in F1 (World championship) :

 

https://en.wikipedia...ivelles-Baulers

Edited by FLB, 05 September 2020 - 16:39.

[Tim Murray]

If a ‘short lap’ is considered to be one of less than 2.5 miles/4 km then Brands Hatch shouldn’t be included. When the long circuit was opened in 1960 its official length was 2.65 miles. The 1976 modifications reduced the length to 2.61 miles, and this was the official length when the last Grand Prix was held there in 1986. The current length is given as 2.43 miles; I assume this is mainly due to the reprofiling of Graham Hill Bend plus other mods to increase run-off areas etc.