257 replies to this topic

[chrcol]

SC restarts are one of the most dangerous parts of a grand prix, but we seeing SC's been deployed very aggressively in VSC situations, today we got a accident on a SC restart, should SC be safety decisions only, or carry on using them to hype up the race?

[Kev00]

Jesus Christ you can’t complain that SC restarts are dangerous.

Do you also want rolling starts with cars 5 seconds apart?

[RPM40]

That was a very unnecessary safety car. Why were they wheeling it all the way back into the pits?

[chrcol]

Kev00 They are more dangerous than vsc restart you have all the cars close to each other.

Edited by chrcol, 06 September 2020 - 13:59.

[Peat]

That was a very unnecessary safety car. Why were they wheeling it all the way back into the pits?

 

The gap Km stopped by was not big enough to put a car in. 

 

https://twitter.com/...0526979/photo/1

Edited by Peat, 06 September 2020 - 14:06.

[chrcol]

the car could have been pushed behind the barrier, just would have had to stay there until end of race.

[SenorSjon]

That is a place no one crashes, they could have left it there and go on their merry way.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

That is a place no one crashes, they could have left it there and go on their merry way.

There is always a first time...

[Lights]

The gap Km stopped by was not big enough to put a car in. 

 

https://twitter.com/...0526979/photo/1

 

These gaps should be designed in a way that drivers (in control of their car) can retire their car safely without the need of a SC, VSC, or even yellow flag.

Edited by Lights, 06 September 2020 - 14:17.

[Jazza]

You can’t have cars parked on the side of the track. It’s too dangerous.

You can however have a dozen cars parked in the middle of the track during a qualifying lap. That’s fine.

[Peat]

These gaps should be designed in a way that drivers (in control of their car) can retire their car safely without the need of a SC, VSC, or even yellow flag.

 

They are at the new tracks. Monza is old and has physical constraints. 

[absinthedude]

That is a place no one crashes, they could have left it there and go on their merry way.

 

That's what they said when they left a car on the trackside at Monteral in 2007....or down the escape road at Long Beach in 1980.

 

As for safety cars adding to danger. Utter tosh. 

Edited by absinthedude, 06 September 2020 - 15:23.

[chrcol]

You can’t have cars parked on the side of the track. It’s too dangerous.

You can however have a dozen cars parked in the middle of the track during a qualifying lap. That’s fine.

Isnt behind a barrier off track? if it isnt then by your definition we have people taking photos and marshall's standing on track.

 

Also safety needs to be consistent you cant claim putting a car behind a barrier is any more dangerous than having SC restarts, I have watched F1 for 25 years and the amount of times I have seen chained SC's because restarts causing an accident is probably at least a couple of dozen.

 

To me its clear VSC is safer than SC, the only one single advantage of SC, is when you need that large gap with no cars passing by at all.  e.g. when needing to remove debris off the track.

Edited by chrcol, 06 September 2020 - 15:36.

[ensign14]

SC restarts are one of the most dangerous parts of a grand prix, but we seeing SC's been deployed very aggressively in VSC situations, today we got a accident on a SC restart, should SC be safety decisions only, or carry on using them to hype up the race?

I've said for ages the SC is a danger.  Senna's death was thanks to the SC.  If you need an SC, you really need a red flag.

[Myrvold]

Isnt behind a barrier off track?

 

Then the car needs to fit in the opening, which it apparently didn't.

[chrcol]

That's what they said when they left a car on the trackside at Monteral in 2007....or down the escape road at Long Beach in 1980.

 

As for safety cars adding to danger. Utter tosh. 

So 2 incidents in 27 years? whilst crashes on SC restarts are far more frequent.

 

I didnt suggest the car be left trackside, I just suggested a SC wasnt needed to move it behind the barrier, 20 years ago, that car would have been removed without a SC.  probably a crane could have lifted it over the entire fence, but F1 no longer seems to have those cranes anymore.

[chrcol]

I've said for ages the SC is a danger.  Senna's death was thanks to the SC.  If you need an SC, you really need a red flag.

 

Yep it was I remember that also.

[Spillage]

To be honest I don't really see why it couldn't have been covered by a VSC. Actually I don't really know why Magnussen didn't just coast down the pitlane. Still, it gave us a hell of a race.

[chrcol]

Then the car needs to fit in the opening, which it apparently didn't.

 

from the photo posted its clear it can fit.

[smitten]

I just don't understand why, if they need a SC to move the Haas, they didn't wait for the SC to do its job and collect the field before moving it?

[Jazza]

Isnt behind a barrier off track? if it isnt then by your definition we have people taking photos and marshall's standing on track.

Also safety needs to be consistent you cant claim putting a car behind a barrier is any more dangerous than having SC restarts, I have watched F1 for 25 years and the amount of times I have seen chained SC's because restarts causing an accident is probably at least a couple of dozen.

To me its clear VSC is safer than SC, the only one single advantage of SC, is when you need that large gap with no cars passing by at all. e.g. when needing to remove debris off the track.

The car clearly wasn’t behind a barrier. That’s why the safety car was brought out to move it...

But consistency is what I’m complaining about. A car sitting on the grass to the side of the track needs to be moved for safety reasons. But during practice and qualifying cars are stopping on the actual race track with others flying past at full speed and that’s apparently safe.

The FIA continue to concern themselves with some safety issues whilst turning a blind eye to others.

[ANF]

from the photo posted its clear it can fit.

Upright?

[Beri]

SC restarts are one of the most dangerous parts of a grand prix, but we seeing SC's been deployed very aggressively in VSC situations, today we got a accident on a SC restart, should SC be safety decisions only, or carry on using them to hype up the race?

I might have missed it, but what accident was there after the SC restart?

[ExFlagMan]

the car could have been pushed behind the barrier, just would have had to stay there until end of race.

 

I a not sure two marshals would have been able to push the car into that gap - F1 cars are not very easy to push, especially backwards and from the photo there does not seem to be a lot of room there anyway.

[ExFlagMan]

These gaps should be designed in a way that drivers (in control of their car) can retire their car safely without the need of a SC, VSC, or even yellow flag.

 

Not sure how you design that without having the armco overlap the wrong way round - maybe you could post a simple diagram.

[TheFish]

I might have missed it, but what accident was there after the SC restart?

Leclerc smashed into the barrier, easy to forget.

Today gave us a great race, so I don’t mind it, but it really seemed like a situation designed for a VSC? Close the pits still, if for some reason it has to go down there instead of backwards.

[Kalmake]

I've said for ages the SC is a danger.  Senna's death was thanks to the SC.  If you need an SC, you really need a red flag.

Red flag is more danger now that they do a standing start after.

 

I think marshal safety needs to take precedent over the downsides of more crashes and randomizing the race.

[Izzyeviel]

So 2 incidents in 27 years? whilst crashes on SC restarts are far more frequent.

 

I didnt suggest the car be left trackside, I just suggested a SC wasnt needed to move it behind the barrier, 20 years ago, that car would have been removed without a SC.  probably a crane could have lifted it over the entire fence, but F1 no longer seems to have those cranes anymore.

 

There's a been alot more than that...and our luck ran out in 2014... freak accidents happen.

[absinthedude]

Any accident after a safety car rolling start is going to be less violent than a car at full speed ploughing into a car left trackside. "It'll never happen" or "it's a once in a decade thing" don't wash.

 

As for Senna...cheap, low blow. And factually incorrect. While the restart may have played a part, those in the know including the only man alive to have driven that car in anger through Tamburello reckon Senna's strange line through the curve caused him to lose control. Senna even warned Hill not to take that line. 

 

In the distant past, cars were actually left trackside because "nobody ever hits them". And sometimes they got hit. People got maimed. Others like Kubica were lucky. Pre safety-car it wasn't considered worth red flagging a race unless the track was actually blocked....races continued with burning cars, drivers trapped inside dying off the racing line but still on the tarmac. So gradually procedures changed. It is surely safer to have a SC period, move a car to safety, then restart. that is pretty much the raison d'etre of the safety car. SC restarts are far less dangerous than standing starts, which themselves need not be dangerous if the procedures are followed.

 

The SC is also there to protect the marshalls, give them time and track space to do their jobs safely. Remember too there are fewer marhsals in 2020 due to Covid, maybe the equipment to rapidly move the Haas would have been there in 2019 but not today. In the circumstances the SC was the right choice. 

Edited by absinthedude, 06 September 2020 - 16:10.

[KWSN - DSM]

Not adding danger, they should however not be used period.

[chrcol]

I just don't understand why, if they need a SC to move the Haas, they didn't wait for the SC to do its job and collect the field before moving it?

 

That is a very good point, further supports my idea that the SC was brought on for entertainment reasons.

 

If it was brought on for the gap, then they would have waited for the gap to form.

[Gareth]

To be honest I don't really see why it couldn't have been covered by a VSC. Actually I don't really know why Magnussen didn't just coast down the pitlane. Still, it gave us a hell of a race.

The fact that the marshalls were allowed on to the track to push the car before the field had formed up behind the SC proves that it could have been handled under a VSC and that the FIA only went SC to spice up the race.

[chrcol]

There's a been alot more than that...and our luck ran out in 2014... freak accidents happen.

 

It applies the other way as well, one day the luck will run out and a crash on a SC restart will be a fatality or crippling injury.

 

Also more crashes means more times a steward needs to clear a car, isnt that adding danger to them?

 

I have no issues for a SC been brought out when its done for safety reasons, my issue is when a safety protocol is been abused for entertainment.

Edited by chrcol, 06 September 2020 - 16:20.

[absinthedude]

I thought there had been an announcement that the VSC would not be the preferred option in races from 2020 onwards. 

[BobbyRicky]

I think having red-lights on a racetrack is even more dangerous! Should get rid of them as well.

[THEWALL]

SC restarts are one of the most dangerous parts of a grand prix, but we seeing SC's been deployed very aggressively in VSC situations, today we got a accident on a SC restart, should SC be safety decisions only, or carry on using them to hype up the race?

They should use them to artificially spice up races as long as races don’t naturally offer good racing.

[uzsjgb]

It applies the other way as well, one day the luck will run out and a crash on a SC restart will be a fatality or crippling injury.

 

A safety car restart is: cars accelerating out of a corner while following each other closely.

 

Which is actually what happened on every lap out of the Parabolica.

[PlatenGlass]

Was Leclerc's accident because of a safety car restart anyway? I don't really see the connection. He crashed at the end of the lap.

 

In any case, I've always been of the view that you should use the VSC where possible and only use the safety car when absolutely necessary - which is generally when people need to be working on the actual track and therefore need a nice big time gap where there will be no cars.

 

I remember someone went off down an escape road at Austria and they went full safety car for that - poor decision. There was no reason other than to spice up the action, which is not what the safety car's for.

[HerbieMcQueen]

SC restarts are one of the most dangerous parts of a grand prix, but we seeing SC's been deployed very aggressively in VSC situations, today we got a accident on a SC restart, should SC be safety decisions only, or carry on using them to hype up the race?

 

Favourite teams: merc/hamilton

 

To quote Sebastian Vettel in Shanghai - "I don't think I need to say anything here" 

[chrcol]

Was Leclerc's accident because of a safety car restart anyway? I don't really see the connection. He crashed at the end of the lap.

 

In any case, I've always been of the view that you should use the VSC where possible and only use the safety car when absolutely necessary - which is generally when people need to be working on the actual track and therefore need a nice big time gap where there will be no cars.

 

I remember someone went off down an escape road at Austria and they went full safety car for that - poor decision. There was no reason other than to spice up the action, which is not what the safety car's for.

 

yes his tyres were too cold and due to been packed up he was in close racing.

[Lights]

Not sure how you design that without having the armco overlap the wrong way round - maybe you could post a simple diagram.

 

The gap should simply be wider. 

 

 

On the other side of the track there's 10 meter wide overlap. Had Magnussen happened to drive on that side while retiring (I understand why he didn't) he would've been able to park his car out of sight/reach. The race would've gone on normally, Hamilton would've cruised to his 90th win and Gasly would've been content with 7th place.

 

It shouldn't be the case that a car like Magnussen's retiring causes a SC. If there's a crash, sure. If there's much debris on track, sure. But when a car just limps home to the pits and the team tell him to suddenly stop the car, a driver is going to look for a gap like this. And I find it so unnecessary that it almost always causes a safety car that can potentially completely change the race for everyone else.

 

All these gaps should be designed in a way that drivers can retire safely. Instead of 3 meters, make the gap 10 meters. I get that there's a grandstand in the way in this particular case, but then they should simply move that back.

[w1Y]

That safety car was utter bs and clearly the decision was overwritten by an attempt to close the pack. The penalties were correct but it should never have been a safety car. Vsc would have covered it easily.

We are now in a position where the sport is turning more into a farce

[uzsjgb]

The gap should simply be wider. 

 

Which wouldn't change anything, because the marshals would still have to push the car into the gap. Marshals on the track means safety car.

 

Weird to see so many people arguing that we should risk the marshal's lives for their entertainment.

[Kalmake]

Definitely VSC + closed pits should have sufficed to clear the car. There was still a large gap in the traffic too.

[uzsjgb]

Definitely VSC + closed pits should have sufficed to clear the car. There was still a large gap in the traffic too.

 

We just saw that drivers ignored closed pits. How can you suggest that as a safety measure?

[SophieB]

The fact that the marshalls were allowed on to the track to push the car before the field had formed up behind the SC proves that it could have been handled under a VSC and that the FIA only went SC to spice up the race.

The marshalls going out before the SC is a really good point.

[Kalmake]

We just saw that drivers ignored closed pits. How can you suggest that as a safety measure?

Two drivers did. Sometimes drivers ignore yellow flags or don't have seat belts on. I would suggest we keep using those measures still.

[potmotr]

I think the bigger question is why marshals can't quickly and easily roll a stopped F1 car about five metres back behind the barriers? Magnussen placed his car perfectly.

[w1Y]

May as well get rid of vsc now. It now gives the race stewards too much room to favour race decisions during the race. And if they choose this for a full safety car then there cant be any occasion where a vsc makes sense now.

Cock up by merc but that's a separate point.

[ExFlagMan]

The trouble with the VSC is that the cars are still coming round at odd intervals so any of the (reduced no of) marshals would need to be looking over their shoulders each time they heard an car engine to see if anything was coming too close for comfort.

 

 

With the current reduced no of marshals you do not have the normal luxury of having a spotter watching your backs

 

You also have to factor in that this incident was on the exit of a fast blind bend just to throw an added problem into the mix.