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What would happen if F1 teams could copy other teams' cars?


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#1 RobNNN

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 13:24

In minute detail. Drawings, software, data, the whole thing.



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#2 Augurk

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 13:26

I'd say a protest would happen, then a penalty would be applied... maybe something like 15 points docked from the WCC and a reprimand for every race the copied car would be used.

 

Oh and possibly a bit of a farcical appeal to the decision by several teams that after a bit of backchanneling all get withdrawn. 



#3 Hati

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 14:38

Series would be better.



#4 Retrofly

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 14:48

They kind of do that already no?



#5 milestone 11

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 15:58

Have you been in hibernation?

#6 Paco

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 16:11

In minute detail. Drawings, software, data, the whole thing.

 

So spec.. we have that in many other series..



#7 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 16:55

Of course, if every team was able to copy the others' so exactly then they'd all have essentially the same performance. So teams would look to design their own cars in an attempt to build something better. While stealing other teams' designs is a bad thing, copying itself isn't. The best teams would always want to do their own thing to gain an advantage.

 

Here are a couple of historical examples. While the Ford-Cosworth DFV was the best engine to have most teams wanted to run it. But as soon as any potential better engine came along (Alfa Romeo for Brabham, or once turbos became reliable enough) then teams wanted that advantage back.

 

Similarly, almost the entire CART field ran Reynard chassis in 1998 and going into 1999. It became obvious to the top teams that it would be harder to win if everyone had the same package, so some like Ganassi switched to Lola to find a performance differentiator and hopefully get an advantage.



#8 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 17:29

At the end of the season, the cars should go into Parc Ferme and transported to another location. Over 9 days, each team gets a day to examine a specific team car.  Merc gets to examine Ferrari on Monday,Red Bull on Tues,etc.  No camera, video or 3d scanning of any kind is permitted, they can only measure, take notes, and make drawings. 



#9 Risil

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 17:42

What exactly are we copying? As I understand things, it's relatively simple to take loads of photos of bodywork and try and make your wings, engine cover etc look like the competition's. Not sure how you copy the internals without access to IP, which would more or less be customer cars.



#10 Rinehart

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 17:46

In minute detail. Drawings, software, data, the whole thing.


Assume the only car worth copying would be Merc in this case. I think all the top teams with infrastructure would be too proud to do it so I can’t see a situation where the best copy would be any better than the RP and frankly that’s fine by me. Proper teams shouldn’t be worried. If McLaren, Renault, Red Bull, Ferrari can’t run a car quicker than the copy, they should be blaming themselves.

#11 pdac

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 18:12

If F1 teams could copy other teams cars, the result would be there would be a couple of teams that were close to each other, at the front, and the rest would be close to each other a way back - because one team would have the best design, one would copy it correctly and the others would either make poor copies of the best car or would copy the wrong car.



#12 Nathan

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 03:35

^ Yup.  And there is the whole thing how to make it all work.  We always hear of teams hunting for setups to make the aero work.  Development over the season means after a few races performances start diverging.



#13 kumo7

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 06:43

F1 to lose the legend of technical competition, invention and out-law image of being wild and aggressive in building the car, exploring the frontier in go racing.

 

THen

 

F1 will be filled up with el-cheapo capital gamers who wants to make money, and call it the racing.



#14 Eff One 2002

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 06:46

In minute detail. Drawings, software, data, the whole thing.

You'd get what happened with Benetton and Ligier in 1995, I would have thought.



#15 Baddoer

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 06:59

Now there is a better idea: everyone draws it's own car but they race each other's based on random FIA lottery.

New every weekend.

 

How about that?



#16 Hakki069

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 12:56

In minute detail. Drawings, software, data, the whole thing.


Something close to what is called a spec series. Since everyone would just copy Mercedes lol

#17 Bloggsworth

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 13:08

You mean that they don't already?



#18 danmills

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 13:47

Get teams to release all design data at the end of the season. Keeps teams on their toes.

#19 pdac

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 16:16

Get teams to release all design data at the end of the season. Keeps teams on their toes.

 

The team budgets would go through the roof when they have to employ so many people to peruse the designs of all of the other teams and find the best ideas.



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#20 Rinehart

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 14:11

The team budgets would go through the roof when they have to employ so many people to peruse the designs of all of the other teams and find the best ideas.

Absolute nonsense. How can employing loads of people to actually DO the design and research including all the ideas than never make it, possibly cost more than copying the best ones (It's self explanatory that the best ones would be on the fastest cars so there would be no hunting for needles in haystacks as you suggest).  



#21 Rinehart

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 14:34

Get teams to release all design data at the end of the season. Keeps teams on their toes.

 

I'd go further than that (and first posted this idea about 10 years ago). I think it should be a rule that ANY designed item, to be allowed to be used on track, should FIRST have to be uploaded (blue prints) to an FIA public platform. 

 

The reasons for this are:

 

1. In nearly all other competitive industries, as soon as your "product" is launched, your competitors can buy/obtain a copy, examine it and incorporate aspects of it into designs of their products, even improving them. This is fundamental to the progress and continual improvement of our planet. So with this mechanism in sport, F1 the teams would be both collectively AND competitively creating better solutions faster that would eventually trickle down to consumer products, from cars to whatever other applications.

2. There would still be "first to market", "knowledge" and "maximised benefit"  advantages for any team be the originator of any design, which would doubtless usually be the bigger/faster teams. A copying team looking to incorporate that design would still need to understand it, evolve it and incorporate it into their overall car design in a way that gave them a performance benefit that would usually not be as maximised as it would be for the originator. And that would all take time, from a race to a season depending on the complexity of the idea. But it they improved it, the quid pro quo would be that the originator would then get the opportunity to incorporate/evolve improved design as the copier would also have to publish their design...

3. In most cases the originator would be free of the resource demand on the initial stage of a design and be onto their own evolutions or other designs, a competitive advantage.

4. This process would massively reduce the cost for smaller teams to be closer to the performance of bigger teams, without unfairly advantaging them or... unduly threatening them.

5. Teams could strategically choose to divest from certain areas of R&D and focus on others. Within a budget (or cap) a team might decide to be principally a suspension copier but an aero originator, or vice versa. 

6. The fans/consumers would benefit hugely. Apparently Mercedes have wonderful power unit technology giving world leading efficiency... yet none of us have a CLUE about it, such is the mechanism of secrecy that shrouds F1. Surely a big win for the marketing departments and fan engagement. 

7. It would provide a complete overhaul of the sporting integrity of F1... I assume I don't need to explain it any further.

8. One could even argue that a cost cap would no longer be necessary in F1.



#22 Rodaknee

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 18:30

I'd go further than that (and first posted this idea about 10 years ago). I think it should be a rule that ANY designed item, to be allowed to be used on track, should FIRST have to be uploaded (blue prints) to an FIA public platform. 

 

The reasons for this are:

 

1. In nearly all other competitive industries, as soon as your "product" is launched, your competitors can buy/obtain a copy, examine it and incorporate aspects of it into designs of their products, even improving them. This is fundamental to the progress and continual improvement of our planet. So with this mechanism in sport, F1 the teams would be both collectively AND competitively creating better solutions faster that would eventually trickle down to consumer products, from cars to whatever other applications.

2. There would still be "first to market", "knowledge" and "maximised benefit"  advantages for any team be the originator of any design, which would doubtless usually be the bigger/faster teams. A copying team looking to incorporate that design would still need to understand it, evolve it and incorporate it into their overall car design in a way that gave them a performance benefit that would usually not be as maximised as it would be for the originator. And that would all take time, from a race to a season depending on the complexity of the idea. But it they improved it, the quid pro quo would be that the originator would then get the opportunity to incorporate/evolve improved design as the copier would also have to publish their design...

3. In most cases the originator would be free of the resource demand on the initial stage of a design and be onto their own evolutions or other designs, a competitive advantage.

4. This process would massively reduce the cost for smaller teams to be closer to the performance of bigger teams, without unfairly advantaging them or... unduly threatening them.

5. Teams could strategically choose to divest from certain areas of R&D and focus on others. Within a budget (or cap) a team might decide to be principally a suspension copier but an aero originator, or vice versa. 

6. The fans/consumers would benefit hugely. Apparently Mercedes have wonderful power unit technology giving world leading efficiency... yet none of us have a CLUE about it, such is the mechanism of secrecy that shrouds F1. Surely a big win for the marketing departments and fan engagement. 

7. It would provide a complete overhaul of the sporting integrity of F1... I assume I don't need to explain it any further.

8. One could even argue that a cost cap would no longer be necessary in F1.

What a load of cods.

No one, in the real world, works on an idea, perhaps for months or even years, to give it away.  It's pretty obvious you have no experience of design, innovation or any practical work.



#23 pdac

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Posted 17 September 2020 - 20:33

Absolute nonsense. How can employing loads of people to actually DO the design and research including all the ideas than never make it, possibly cost more than copying the best ones (It's self explanatory that the best ones would be on the fastest cars so there would be no hunting for needles in haystacks as you suggest).  

 

Sorry, I guess I needed to add  :lol:



#24 Rinehart

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 12:50

What a load of cods.
No one, in the real world, works on an idea, perhaps for months or even years, to give it away. It's pretty obvious you have no experience of design, innovation or any practical work.


Right, so in your world Samsung don’t spend any time examining iPhones? Unlike me then it’s clear your Elon Musk.

#25 Rinehart

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 12:52

Sorry, I guess I needed to add :lol:


Great, one of those who maintains they’re right even when they’re clearly wrong. Racing Point were fined principally for the “resource saved” but hey what do I know.

#26 pdac

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 15:07

Great, one of those who maintains they’re right even when they’re clearly wrong. Racing Point were fined principally for the “resource saved” but hey what do I know.

 

Clearly I need to make it clear IT WAS A JOKE COMMENT



#27 masa90

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 15:31

I wonder if it would be an advantage to the sport if after for example two years, raced f1 cars designs and all blueprints would be made available for all the teams. It could ofcourse backfire massively aswell, with some teams getting lazy.

 

But since f1 moves on so quickly, it would still keep the advantage of the best teams, but could be a good place for the "lower teams" to understand and find out how the big teams made their stuff to be so much better. This way there could be no multiyear advantes relying on some old tricks and ideas.



#28 Victor

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 15:54

Copying is part of the technical evolution in all sectors. Copying is even part of the creative sector.

I see no problem in allowing copying in F1. I do not think it has anything to do with spec series.



#29 Timorous

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Posted 18 September 2020 - 16:06

I think if all teams shared all the car data (cfd, drawings, wind tunnel etc) at the end of each season it could work.

It should allow a team to capitalise for a season or two after a big regulation change and then by season 3 most teams would start to converge leading to closer championships.