36 replies to this topic

[toolish]

Can anyone identify the year (1950? 1951?) and the Grand Prix this photo of Juan Manuel Fangio has been taken at? Thanks!

[lustigson]

Well, it's an Alfa, so that makes for 1950 or 1951. And you'd think that the starting number — is it 111 or 171? — would give it away. Fangio didn't do any championship races with either of those numbers, I reckon, so it would be a non-championship race.

[toolish]

Well, it's an Alfa, so that makes for 1950 or 1951. And you'd think that the starting number — is it 111 or 171? — would give it away. Fangio didn't do any championship races with either of those numbers, I reckon, so it would be a non-championship race.

 

I tried both numbers in this database: https://www.museofan...ngio/races/1950 - but sadly no results.

[68targa]

Whilst not directly related to the image of Fangio driving #111 there is a photo of Taruffi driving a 4th entered Alfa 158  at Geneva for the GP des Nations in 1950 with the car numbered #146 yet all of the reports I have found for this race show him as #46.  I wonder if there was some protocol maybe for practice where a #1 was placed ahead of the actual race number.  Thus the photo of Fangio might be his race number #11 which narrow it down ?     Some food for thought anyway.

 

The photo of Taruffi as #146 I found in Alfetta: The Alfa Romeo 158/159 Grand Prix Car by Ed McDonough, Crowood Press 2005 on page 122.

[Felix Muelas]

First impression is that the shot is from the days previous to the German GP 1951. I think this is  # 9 (chasis 117) with engine 215, entered for Bonetto but damaged by Fangio in practice. The number is not only blury but also messy, but looking at the other pictures of the Alfettas on that meeting -including Daetwyler- and Fangio's short sleeve shirt  it looks to me like "there". Good luck! 

[Felix Muelas]

On further research -the website from which the picture was "proposed" is reachable- you get this info . "autographed photographic print, Fangio GP Switzerland 1950 (Alfa Romeo Alfetta)"

If you make some effort with your eyes and imagine that some parts of the tape have been lost...can you imagine a (big) number 24 there? Weather doesn't help, but...

[Felix Muelas]

I wonder if there was some protocol maybe for practice where a #1 was placed ahead of the actual race number. Some food for thought anyway.

 

I love the idea... Let's try to find more evidence supporting it.

[toolish]

I love the idea... Let's try to find more evidence supporting it.

On further research -the website from which the picture was "proposed" is reachable- you get this info . "autographed photographic print, Fangio GP Switzerland 1950 (Alfa Romeo Alfetta)"

If you make some effort with your eyes and imagine that some parts of the tape have been lost...can you imagine a (big) number 24 there? Weather doesn't help, but...

It's the info on the Automobilia Ladenburg website that confused me, Felix. Because at that year's Swiss Grand Prix, Fangio had a big '24' on the right hand front of his car. And that most certainly isn't there on the signed photo.

[Vitesse2]

I don't know of any Swiss races where odd numbers were used.

 

And three-figure numbers - in that period - say 'Germany' to me.

 

Hillclimb? Sprint? Demo/exhibition? Did Alfa Corse do any of those in 1950/51? Could it even be a post-career picture at some sort of historic event?

[Tim Murray]

Fangio was #14, not #24, at the 1950 Swiss GP. Might the numbers on the mystery photo be hastily-painted 14s put on for practice, with a proper job done in time for the race?

[68targa]

Fangio appears to have raced with the following numbers -

1950 GP des Nations (Geneva)  #2

1950 Swiss GP  ... #14

1951 Swiss GP ... #24

 

If the photo is from the 1950 Swiss GP then  at a stretch it might be seen as a badly painted  14.. Certainly the centre '1' is at an angle and the bottom of the '4' is hidden by the wheel.

[68targa]

Fangio was #14, not #24, at the 1950 Swiss GP. Might the numbers on the mystery photo be hastily-painted 14s put on for practice, with a proper job done in time for the race?

 

Oh dear, Tim's photo shows Fangio in a white shirt and in the mystery photo he appears to be wearing a black or dark shirt !

[rudi]

Louis Rosier testing the Harry Schell Talbot, 1950 Swiss GP practice.

The Fangio photo was taken from the same place.

[Felix Muelas]

Louis Rosier testing the Harry Schell Talbot, 1950 Swiss GP practice.

The Fangio photo was taken from the same place.

 

I have to concede that it definitely looks like the same spot...
Interesting numbering too...

[Tim Murray]

Oh dear, Tim's photo shows Fangio in a white shirt and in the mystery photo he appears to be wearing a black or dark shirt !

No problem, surely, if the mystery photo was taken during practice.

Rudi’s photo (as Felix suggests) seems to prove that the numbers used during practice differed from those used in the race itself. In the race Rosier was #10 and Schell #44.

[Roger Clark]

To me, the car looks a lot less bulky than most 159s raced in 1951.  They took a spare car to most of the races,  (source Simon Moore) often of the 1947 type.  Could this be one of those?

[toolish]

Thank you for your contributions, everyone. I appreciate it greatly.

[LittleChris]

45 years after becoming aware of the book " L'histoire illustree du Grand Prix de Suisse" by Rene Hafeli in a Continental Notes article by DSJ in Motor Sport , a copy was finally delivered by a somewhat weighed down looking courier earlier this week( nothing to do with the mail service, just luck in eventually  finding a reasonably priced copy ).The pictures above of Rosier and Fangio appear on pages 228 and 229 indicating they were taken during the 1950 GP.  Looking at the background, I'd say it was by the pit area where the big stand was situated.

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't there a discussion recently where different numbers were used in practice and the race so patrons would have to buy a programme?

[Sterzo]

The idea that Fangio is pictured in a practice car, rather than the one he raced, fits in with this extract from Motor Sport's report of the 1950 Swiss GP by 'Our Special Correspondent,' who writes just like DSJ.

 

"On the first practice day two Alfas were out and the three drivers, Fangio, Farina and Fagioli, first of all practised on the same car, after Ing. Guidotti had done a lap to make sure everything was in order. First Farina tried and after that Fagioli, but when he was flagged in to hand over to Fangio he arrived with a serious noise in the engine. The car was rushed away and torn apart, while Fangio practised in the second car."

[Rob G]

Note too that Fangio's race car had a yellow nose band, which is missing from the photo in question.

[Rupertlt1]

The same photograph appears in the book Verstummpte Motoren: Die Geschichte des Schweitzer Grand Prix by René Häfeli

1950 Swiss Grand Prix

 

https://www.amazon.c...i/dp/B00649OJVM

 

RGDS RLT

[Roger Clark]

No problem, surely, if the mystery photo was taken during practice.

Rudi’s photo (as Felix suggests) seems to prove that the numbers used during practice differed from those used in the race itself. In the race Rosier was #10 and Schell #44.

Pierra Abeillon tells us that this is Rosier’s own car. He was driving a works car but took this one “pour parer à toute ėventualité”. During the meeting he arranged for Schell to race the car.  S hell was not in the programme but was allocated the next available race number.  It therefore seems that the number 101 indicated a test car not entered for the race rather than a general change of numbers. 

[Sterzo]

Note too that Fangio's race car had a yellow nose band, which is missing from the photo in question.

...and the car photographed has radiator blanking which was absent in the race. However, both of those things are easily changed in the paddock, and they may not have allocated cars to drivers when the picture was taken.

[nexfast]

The same photograph appears in the book Verstummpte Motoren: Die Geschichte des Schweitzer Grand Prix by René Häfeli

1950 Swiss Grand Prix

 

https://www.amazon.c...i/dp/B00649OJVM

 

RGDS RLT

It is the german version of L'Histoire Illustrée Du Grand Prix de Suisse. The two books are identical.

[LittleChris]

I believe the original was in German and then translated to French

[arttidesco]

With one Fangio mystery solved here is another, I stumbled on this Jesse Alexander photo, the place Monaco appears correct but Shirley the year 1962 does not, 1956 maybe ?

 

No race number, but part of the registration might help.

 

TIA

[Michael Ferner]

I think he did a demonstration for filming purposes, 1962 sounds about right. If you google, there should be a video about.

[lustigson]

Amazon work, people! 

[Tim Murray]

There’s a link to the Youtube clip in the first post of this thread:

Fangio in a Lancia D50?

Presumably this is when Jesse Alexander took the photo. However, Fangio also drove a D50 around Monaco in September 1970 as part of the filming for the Hugh Hudson film, so the Youtube clip may date from then.

’Fangio - The Film’ directed by Hugh Hudson

[cpbell]

Regarding the initial photo, it's definitely a 158 rather than the 159 as shown by the shape of the tail, so Bremgarten 1950 makes sense.

[arttidesco]

Thanks Michael and Tim (y)

Edited by arttidesco, 01 October 2020 - 08:00.

[Roger Clark]

The car in the Jesse Alexander photograph posted by arttidesco has a prominent fuel filler on the tail, indicating one of the modifications made by Ferrari in 1956. I can’t tell whether it has the full width body or separate panniers but I think I can see the exhausts in front of the rear wheel, another 1956 change. The car in the video linked by Tim is much closer to the original Lancia specification. 
 

You can also see that the car in Jesse Alexander’s photo has a Scuderia Ferrari number plate stencilled on the tail, just as it did in 1956, and a dent in the tail, just as it did in 1956 when Fangio had finished with it. 

[arttidesco]

The car in the Jesse Alexander photograph posted by arttidesco has a prominent fuel filler on the tail, indicating one of the modifications made by Ferrari in 1956. I can’t tell whether it has the full width body or separate panniers but I think I can see the exhausts in front of the rear wheel, another 1956 change. The car in the video linked by Tim is much closer to the original Lancia specification. 
 

You can also see that the car in Jesse Alexander’s photo has a Scuderia Ferrari number plate stencilled on the tail, just as it did in 1956, and a dent in the tail, just as it did in 1956 when Fangio had finished with it. 

 

It would appear from unrelated photos to the one of Fangio in the D50 Jesse was at Monaco in 1956 and 1962, however just found the same photo eleswhere captioned 1956 which seems a better fit IMHO ;-)

[Repco22]

The car in the Jesse Alexander photograph posted by arttidesco has a prominent fuel filler on the tail, indicating one of the modifications made by Ferrari in 1956. I can’t tell whether it has the full width body or separate panniers but I think I can see the exhausts in front of the rear wheel, another 1956 change. The car in the video linked by Tim is much closer to the original Lancia specification. 
 

You can also see that the car in Jesse Alexander’s photo has a Scuderia Ferrari number plate stencilled on the tail, just as it did in 1956, and a dent in the tail, just as it did in 1956 when Fangio had finished with it. 

The tails of the Ferrari-modified cars were longer than the stumpy Lancia ones to accommodate more fuel [as in Jesse's pic.] No fuel in the Ferrari side extensions so no fuel caps

 which were visible at the rear, on the tops of the Lancia side tanks. 

 Also, those Lancia tanks were curved along the top, sweeping upwards at the ends. The Ferrari extensions have a straight top and yes, the exhausts passing through them.

[Roger Clark]

It would appear from unrelated photos to the one of Fangio in the D50 Jesse was at Monaco in 1956 and 1962, however just found the same photo eleswhere captioned 1956 which seems a better fit IMHO ;-)

I thought it might be 1956 but the cars in the race had a prominent number on the tail. However, we know that Fangio tried several cars in practice; there is a photograph in Driven, a book of Jesse Alexander’s work, showing Fangio setting off from the pits in a car with a roughly painted P on the nose. The car appears to be of so-called Argentina configuration: fuel tank in the tail but still separate, Lancia panniers. Ferrari had two such cars at Monaco: one driven by Castellotti, the other a spare. 

[Arjan de Roos]

Fangio drove the original remaining Lancia in the movies. OK, with scudetto's, but... So pic must be 1956.