311 replies to this topic

[milestone 11]

A decade and more ago,this forum, with others, was instrumental in the demise of both James Allen and Jonathan Legard. The campaign against Allen was particularly nasty with T shirts available  with the rather unpleasant exclamation "Stop the Cock". Some of the more unpleasant stuff from those heady days will be found here    The campaign agaist Legard carried a poll which was overwhelmingly anti Legard with a 77% call for his sacking, found here. In both cases the campaigns were successful.

 

Now we have Croft. Is he truly as loathesome as it appears to me or am I just intolerant?  Are you fed up with the talk of tattoos, reverse grids, and all the other puerile nonsense that he makes a hobby horse for, are you fed up of the constant giggling about nothing?

 

Discuss here and vote. Votes wil be public so you better have the courage of your convictions.                                                                                                     

Edited by milestone 11, 26 September 2020 - 11:03.

[Retrofly]

If he could actually follow the race that'd be great. I can't stand him, but I feel that's my problem to deal with. What can't be forgiven is not knowing the order of the race, who's overtaking whom, who are we looking at and where on the track are they. Crofty having a bit of a nightmare on that front this season.

[Spyker]

I'm not a fan of his, not for the chitter chatter and other such tings. But for the amount of simple mistakes he makes, talking about the wrong driver, saying they have the wrong tyre on even though it's on the screen, not being able to see the strategies in play. 

 

It's his job! Just do your research and stay on top of your game.

[Burtros]

You know when you don’t read a question right and vote the wrong way? Yeah. That just happened.

He’s awful and getting worse and worse.

[Marklar]

I would appreciate a "I dont care/other" option.

I think he is very bearable in qualifyings/races since he actually has something to comment on without giving his own input. Maybe others are better, but I recall that Crofty was also dubbed as a great commentary talent before he got the Sky gig. Maybe it's just Sky that makes them like that. That being said fresh blood can help, especially to avoid simple research mistakes that creep in once you are not as motivated.

He is absolutely unbearable in practice though, because there he gets to give his input about stuff he has as much of an idea as us. I would prefer people like Davidson, Chandhok or Rosberg to take charge of this.

Edited by Marklar, 26 September 2020 - 10:59.

[SophieB]

Yes and no. I do find it all unbelievably irritating and I’m convinced the constant hyping up of even minor issues into huge events both erodes trust in the audience and contributes to the rather unpleasant constant twitter-storm atmosphere out there. It’s just not treating the audience with a lot of respect, but rather like they think those watching are a bunch of hyperactive teenagers who will switch off unless they are constantly promised ACTION ACTION ACTION.

 

However, there is no way he’s just doing that unaided, this will be done at the behest of the production team so sure, it completely sucks and I’m happy that Sky know it, but I’m not convinced getting rid of the human being delivering the message would solve the issue.

[milestone 11]

I would appreciate a "I dont care/other" option.

I think he is very bearable in qualifyings/races since he actually has something to comment on without giving his own input. Maybe others are better, but I recall that Crofty was also dubbed as a great commentary talent before he got the Sky gig. Maybe it's just Sky that makes them like that. That being said fresh blood can help, especially to avoid simple research mistakes that creep in once you are not as motivated.

He is absolutely unbearable in practice though, because there he gets to give his input about stuff he has as much of an idea as us. I would prefer people like Davidson, Chandhok or Rosberg to take charge of this.

No sitting on fences. 

[milestone 11]

You know when you don’t read a question right and vote the wrong way? Yeah. That just happened.

He’s awful and getting worse and worse.

I'm sure that if you're serious, one of the mods would change it for you.

[krapmeister]

You do realise if he goes they will just replace him with someone else we can all complain about?

[Muppetmad]

I never minded Allen; Legard wasn't terrible. I didn't mind Croft to begin with, but it feels like Sky have asked him to indulge the worse sides of his commentary in recent years: ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE SHOUTED now, outrageous speculation seems all the more commonplace, and even the most basic developments in the race are being missed (by Brundle too). Croft and Brundle need to go. Channel 4's team is evidence enough that Sky can do better.

[krapmeister]

If you think Crofty shouts a lot your minds would be blown if Darryl Eastlake was still around to commentate on F1 🤣

[northanmonkee2]

i cant  think of a single Motorsports commentator that doesn't make mistakes , however his constant whinging on blue flags and track limits 

every  single  race ad nausuem is tedious and boring , but when paired with brundle or davidson he can be ok ,i dont mind the shouty bits , it shows passion .

 

if he were to  be replaced i would want sky  to go  for the channel 4 pairing  of edwards and coulthard . 

perfect  team would be 

 brundle main host 

coulthard  / edwards  = race commentators in rotation with secondry pundits

 webber / kravitz / davidson / rosberg  = secondry  pundits 

 remove diresta  croft herbet hill  lazenby  chandhook 

[Tombstone]

I only know of Croft because when I was working stateside ESPN takes a feed from $ky. I don't like his commentary, and he often appears to be playing bull$hit bingo.

[GlenWatkins]

i wish that I could vote more than once

[Lights]

Surely there's someone better available. So yes.

 

My main gripes with Croft:

• As SophieB already put nicely, the hyping up of anything. There's a driver 0.999 seconds behind at the DRS line? - "ARE WE GONNA SEE A MOVE HERE!? THE DRS IS WIIIDE OOPEN! IS HE GONNA HAVE A LOOK!? HE'S GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER!" ^{*car still half a second behind under braking*} "OH he's just not close enough." - Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
• As you might have already noticed in the previous point, the baseline shouty voice. At the start it's better to just mute him until Brundle takes over, often with a much calmer voice. After a while Croft also calms down. A bit conflicted on this one, because it's ok if he's excited, but it just feels quite fake because it's always exactly the same standard shouty voice.
• He comes across as if he's 'one of the lads' on a weekend trip with his buddies Clarkson, Hammond and May. And he doesn't realize that he's not the popular one, but he acts like he is. And I bet he's one of those that like to dish it but can't take it.
• So many mistakes. I get that commentators make mistakes, but there's too many of them and in combination with the points above, it really brings his professionalism down. He has a dream job and it seems (probably unfair) that he doesn't give a damn about improving himself or making less mistakes. Doesn't matter to him, because he's having fun with the lads and can't just be fired that easily, so suck it up if you don't like him.

But a lot of it is probably just personal to me. I don't like hype casters in anything. Calm and analytical is what I enjoy a lot more. But they're never gonna put a duo like that in the booth.

Edited by Lights, 26 September 2020 - 11:23.

[noikeee]

You do realise if he goes they will just replace him with someone else we can all complain about?

This

I don't find him amazing and it's possible there's better alternatives out there, but I mean were Allen and Legard better, you guys seemed to complain even more back then? He's the first that I listen to on a regular basis through F1TV and compared to some I've had here in Portugal before, I frankly think he's above average - certainly better than a bloke we had which made races unbelievably boring to listen to, and a bunch of blokes we had that were very biased and self important. Not sure what exactly are you guys expecting.

And commentating is a much more difficult job than it seems. Just try to create a 10 mins YouTube vid chatting over it, about whatever you want. I tried it and it's really tough, nevermind over hours of live action you don't have any editing control of. Whilst trying to cater for an audience of millions. Under editorial directions to try to make the race sound exciting even when it isn't.

Edited by noikeee, 26 September 2020 - 11:21.

[FLB]

Yes and no. I do find it all unbelievably irritating and I’m convinced the constant hyping up of even minor issues into huge events both erodes trust in the audience and contributes to the rather unpleasant constant twitter-storm atmosphere out there. It’s just not treating the audience with a lot of respect, but rather like they think those watching are a bunch of hyperactive teenagers who will switch off unless they are constantly promised ACTION ACTION ACTION.

 

However, there is no way he’s just doing that unaided, this will be done at the behest of the production team so sure, it completely sucks and I’m happy that Sky know it, but I’m not convinced getting rid of the human being delivering the message would solve the issue.

That's it exactly. I feel the same.

[PayasYouRace]

The right man for the job is just doing that job on the wrong channel: Ben Edwards.

[smitten]

When was the last time people were happy with a commentary team?

 

It is seen as sacrilegious in some quarters, but I couldn't stand Walker when he was in the box yet hearing his voice is very nostalgic.  But at least Walker wasn't as inane as Croft and wasn't constantly trying to selll a narrative.

[Anja]

Taken by themselves, his faults aren't that big. But when you combine the amateurish amount of mistakes (to make things worse, often not corrected), all the unnecessary shouting, the embarrassing "banter" and inside jokes with his pals - it's too much. It's good when the commentary can be amiable and laid back, but he crosses the line to where it just doesn't seem very professional anymore.

 

I don't hold the hyping up of small things too much against him as I feel it's more of a production directive given to him by Sky than his own choice.

 

 

i cant  think of a single Motorsports commentator that doesn't make mistakes 

 

Yeah, but most of the time commentators will correct themselves pretty quickly. Crofty usually can't be bothered or doesn't even know he made a mistake, and I don't know which is worse.

[Tombstone]

When was the last time people were happy with a commentary team?

 

 

1993

[PayasYouRace]

When was the last time people were happy with a commentary team?

 

 

The questions isn't "when" but "where". There are good commentary teams out there. Edwards and Coulthard to a much better job of F1 for Channel 4. Addison and Harvey are fantastic as the BTCC team. The current Indycar lot of Diffy, Tracy and Bell often goes down well.

[noikeee]

BTW more proof as to why editorial directions make a difference, and how it's all about the position they're put in:

Will Buxton was great as GP2 commentator and also had a fun blog (remember him writing about his experiences racing against Verstappen in the Florida Winter series?). Quite likeable. Now most people seem to dislike him under his role as FOM's overly excited F1 YouTube guy. (get better soon from Covid, Will)

James Allen was absolutely hated by this board as commentator. Once he moved on and launched his site, suddenly his site was the reference most reputable blog on F1 and everyone on this forum followed it religiously.

I also remember Croft being named by some people as the commentator they wanted when everyone was moaning about Legard.

[hamilton10000]

I do think there's something to be said that fans are generally never that happy with current commentary team.

But in regards to Croft, I certainly rememebr thoroughly enjoying his commentary on practice sessions back in the BBC days. It was kept fairly professional and did a good job of covering all the news stories and not just descending into the cringy 'banter' that we get now.

So I remember being very pleased that he would be taking on the lead commentator role for Sky back in 2012.

But I just really don't feel like he does a good job anymore. As I say in practice sessions he just loves to through our ridiculous suggestions, pointless stats and have a bit of awkward banter with whoever else is there.
Then when things get serious he ups the volume just way too much. For me, the end of Q3 and the start of the race is reasonably okay because they are super critical moments. But his obsession with building up and shouting about an overtake that clearly isn't going to happen is so frustrating.

His poor driver identification and just being completely unaware that an overtake has just happened really does get exceptionally frustrating.

Ultimately I just don't see why, in 2020, when sky have so many pundits and we now normally have 22+ races a season, why does one single commentator need to do every session?
Split up the races.
Have a different commentator for practice sessions.

Just do something to at the very least mix things up.

[jcbc3]

The questions isn't "when" but "where". T...

 

I'm very satisfied with Denmarks.

 

For the races it's Jens-Peter Hansen as the tv guy and then 'Super'-John NIelsen and TomK takes turn as the expert commentator. In the studio we have Nicolas Kiesa as expert. They usually get things right.

 

Elderly Danes think back to Claus Borre shuddering. That was baaaaaad.

[MasterOfCoin]

I think he should just stop with his lets make F1 great again, during practice sessions......

[noikeee]

Maybe I don't find Croft that bad because I don't watch FP sessions. 

[LiftAndCoast]

People love to complain about Sky (especially Crofty) but it could be much worse.

 

I lived in the States for a couple of years and was subjected to Leigh Diffey and the rest of the NBC crew whenever I watched F1.  Just excrable commentary.

[JordanIreland]

It’s a totally unenviable position to hold as lead commentator. As he/she could never please everyone.

If we take Murray Walker, seen by most people as a national icon (and rightly so) would make so many mistakes, yet people seem to tolerate it.

It’s a very subjective topic as it really comes down to personal preference.

While I’m not a fan of most of the Sky team, they are doing a decent job.

[JordanIreland]

People love to complain about Sky (especially Crofty) but it could be much worse.

I lived in the States for a couple of years and was subjected to Leigh Diffey and the rest of the NBC crew whenever I watched F1. Just excrable commentary.

Very good point.

[PayasYouRace]

If we take Murray Walker, seen by most people as a national icon (and rightly so) would make so many mistakes, yet people seem to tolerate it.

 

 

Mistakes come from different factors. You always got the impression with Murray that his mistakes were slips of the tongue in the heat of the moment. His passion and enthusiasm getting the better of him but from the rest of the commentary you knew he had done the research and knew what he was talking about.

 

Croft just comes across like he's not paying attention because he's more interested in what he would rather be talking about.

[Baddoer]

I say do it.  There are plenty of great options: Davidson, Palmer, Buxton and even Herbert all do better i'm sure.

I mean, he have been a long in this position but times change.

Edited by Baddoer, 26 September 2020 - 11:51.

[MrMan]

It's been a few years since I watched the sky feed, but I always despair when I watch the odd clip and hear Croft's voice. Him, the "banter" and the laddish behavior that him and Simon Lazenby tried to push were awful to watch and we ended up ditching our Sky Sports subscription for that reason. It's not been missed.

[OvDrone]

Wow - tough crowed.

 

No; he's fine.

 

I have more than enough patience and I am getting ready for when Alex Jacques takes over as lead. Alex is the real deal.

 

But until then, Crofty is more than fine. Even though I always give him s*** for being cringe, I can't complain.

[Victor_RO]

F1TV has the pitlane channel as an alternative, with a different English-language commentary feed (the "normal" feed has Crofty, the PLC feed usually has Alex Jaques and Alex Brundle), this season I have found myself watching the PLC feed much more regularly than the world feed for almost all sessions. That should say it all.

[midgrid]

I think a key point to make is that the lead TV F1 commentator is obliged by the producers to hype up the action and the local drivers in such a way that the lower-level commentators aren't, due to F1's far greater popularity and exposure: for example, think of ITV's coverage of 2007-08 with Hamilton as a championship contender in comparison to previous years. I'm sure that this partly is why several people have said that they preferred Croft when he was doing radio coverage, and probably anyone taking over the role in the future will suffer from the same thing.

[PayasYouRace]

Open question. What was the verdict on 2011's BBC team, which lacked a traditional lead commentator and just consisted of "pundits" Brundle and Coulthard?

[SophieB]

Mistakes come from different factors. You always got the impression with Murray that his mistakes were slips of the tongue in the heat of the moment. His passion and enthusiasm getting the better of him but from the rest of the commentary you knew he had done the research and knew what he was talking about.

 

Croft just comes across like he's not paying attention because he's more interested in what he would rather be talking about.

Agreed 100%. Most of Murray’s mistakes seemed to be caused by how about six relevant things had occurred to him all at once and he’d kind of fused them together in his rush to speak. I think it also helped that Walker genuinely seemed to adore racing to his very bones and that passion and sincerity shone through. 

[SophieB]

Open question. What was the verdict on 2011's BBC team, which lacked a traditional lead commentator and just consisted of "pundits" Brundle and Coulthard?

This was perfection to me. 

[Risil]

I can't really comment as I don't watch F1 on TV anymore. However, I've heard a fair bit of the Sky team and they're not in my Top 10 racing commentary teams. It could also simply be my own prejudice but Croft is a professional and he calls the races the way he does because that's how the producers want it. Croft doesn't emerge from deep reflection in his library wearing his smoking jacket and thinking "How am I going to be the Voice of F1 this weekend?"

 

To give a counter example, on Radio 5 we have Jack Nicholls and Jolyon Palmer. I don't think Nicholls is more talented than Croft or necessarily funnier or a deeper thinker, but it's a joy just hearing him tug on his own trains of thought in a relaxed and informal fashion. Palmer too -- he's a good analyst but there are many thoughtful and opinionated ex-racing drivers, but he stands out because you believe that he's really speaking his mind and not keeping to any pre-arranged talking points. I'm convinced this is 100% down to the producers and the kind of programme the BBC are trying to make.

 

All that said, Brundle and Coulthard were great, it's a bit disappointing that we only got to hear them bouncing off each other for a year.

[pacificquay]

The telling judgement for me is this

 

if I replay an F1 moment in my head from back in the day, I see and hear it with Murray Walker commentary on it

 

eg “And look at that..... colossally.... it’s Mansell..”     Adelaide 86

 

”who’s going to get into the Retifillio first, Schumacher, Schumacher cutting off Gerhard Berger, Alesi trying to sprint through”  Monza 95

 

 “this is terrible, this quite appalling, this is the worst start to a Grand Prix I’ve ever seen in the whole of my life” Spa 98 start

 

 “OH GOD!” Spa 98 Schumacher/Coulthard

 

And many more.

 

whereas any more recent moment I replay in my head just has natural sound without commentary even though I watched it with commentary live.

[ArnageWRC]

It’s a totally unenviable position to hold as lead commentator. As he/she could never please everyone.

If we take Murray Walker, seen by most people as a national icon (and rightly so) would make so many mistakes, yet people seem to tolerate it.

It’s a very subjective topic as it really comes down to personal preference.

While I’m not a fan of most of the Sky team, they are doing a decent job.

One can almost forgive Murray for his mistakes - his enthusiasm and knowledge of the sport were in a different league to Croft; who isn't steeped in the sport at all. Parachuted into F1 from a completely unconnected sport. 

[ArrowsLivery]

Yes, Croft needs to go. It was significantly more pleasurable to listen to James Allen than Croft.

[potmotr]

He needs to go.

 

Case of the prosecution:

 

* The middle aged lads on a European holiday "banter", highlights of which include extensive self-congratulation for being able to say about three words in Italian.

 

* The fake belly laugh at his own terrible Dad jokes.

 

* The terrible, tedious and endless off-topic anecdotes, the kind that clown your mate always brings to the pub bores the table with. 

 

* Worst of all, he's become lazy and gets a lot wrong these days and seems to have given up properly following the action fans are seeing on TV.

 

I've said it before, but Croft should be calling darts in a northern English pub.

 

There are far better options on the commentator market (like Ben Edwards for starters).

 

I can only presume everyone's most irritating uncle "Crofty" knows where the bodies are buried at Sky in Osterly...

Edited by potmotr, 26 September 2020 - 12:37.

[JordanIreland]

One can almost forgive Murray for his mistakes - his enthusiasm and knowledge of the sport were in a different league to Croft; who isn't steeped in the sport at all. Parachuted into F1 from a completely unconnected sport.

Very good point.

Look at how Murray would physically contort his body as he describes the moment: https://youtu.be/rn3baOf1usg he was genuinely consumed by the sport.

Maybe that’s the key ingredient. Having a lead commentator who loves the sport as much as the viewers?

[Kev00]

Alex Jacques and Jack Nichols are easily better for me. I also prefer the Ben Edwards but I know some people don’t like him. Alex Jacques should get the job right now though.

[potmotr]

...additional point from the prosecution: in the UK we can only watch F1 live on Sky.

 

They have a monopoly, and it's not cheap. They're abusing this position by keeping Crofty and torturing the very customers funding their channel. 

[FirstnameLastname]

I’d forgotten about ‘Stop the cock’

Good times

[potmotr]

That was classic Croft. Hamilton heads into the final few corners at Sochi and Croft is suggesting he's not going to make Q3... Hamilton turns two corners and is comfortably through.

 

Terrible.

[Fastcake]

Croft has been commentating on F1 for 15 years now. It’s not like he doesn’t know how to properly do the job. During his days on Radio 5 lots of people used to prefer his commentary to the TV coverage, and he was reasonably well received when Sky picked him up for their coverage. It’s editorial clearly. The constant hyping, the banter, the idea everything must be amazing at all times, these are all Sky decisions that permeate across all aspects of their coverage. And watching other Sky productions, it’s clear that this is their house style.

A bit of work on Croft’s part may help. It’s a job that requires constant improvement and learning, and I think the repeated mistakes and annoying shouting is evidence that no one at Sky is interested in self-criticism and they’re comfortable in their rut. Given the resources they have, the whole programme could be much better.

I’m not really interested in another public campaign to oust David Croft though. The “stop the cock” thing against James Allen was way out of line in hindsight, and I ended up feeling quite sorry for Jonathan Legard, who seemed like a nice chap in a role he wasn’t suited for. There’s no need to get that personal again.