182 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Driver is booted out, despite not being a total waste of space - to make room for some hotshot who the team is pinning their hopes upon. And then it goes to ****, and it all ends up looking like a big mistake.

What examples do you lament the most?

Still early days, but Ocon taking Hulkenbergs drive doesn’t look to have been for any great gain.

Frentzen being announced as replacing Hill - in the middle of Hills championship year... well that didn’t turn out especially well for Frentzen and Williams. That said - Frentzens replacement in 99 (Zanardi) was even worse.

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 01 October 2020 - 20:31.

[PlayboyRacer]

Damon Hill is the most obvious one. Though that decision was made in '95, when Damon was having a rough patch of sorts.

[messy]

Frentzen getting booted out mid 2001 at Jordan always struck me as the height of silliness. HHF had been instrumental in their rise up the grid and was not the reason why they didn’t make the progress they wanted in 2001. Trulli had started to beat him in qualifying; but Trulli beat everyone in qualifying. Frentzen was still driving quite well, albeit frustrated at their lack of progress. If I remember right, he finished a decent seventh at Silverstone, then he was out.

That can’t have been about the driving. He and Trulli were a strong pairing, and were pretty close on performance. There were rumours about a big fallout behind the scenes, which must have some basis because that’s the only way it ever made sense. Jordan ended up signing Jean Alesi in a seat swap with HHF who went to Prost - Frentzen qualified fourth at Spa but that was a flash in the pan and Alesi didn’t do much at Jordan either.

Also, Toyota booting out Cristiano Da Matta mid-season in 2004. He was doing fine, wasn’t he?

Edited by messy, 01 October 2020 - 20:43.

[SenorSjon]

Villeneuve's comeback at Renault (or was it still Benetton?)

[PlayboyRacer]

Villeneuve's comeback at Renault (or was it still Benetton?)

Renault. Yep when Trulli was sacked.

I agree. It was a little ridiculous with JV having 12 months out, 1 day of testing or whatever then race. But then again I doubt he cared but Renault expected too much of the situation.

[Lights]

Sacking Perez for Vettel. I don't even need the hindsight.

[ATM]

The Button-Vandoorne item still irks me.

[Lights]

Still early days, but Ocon taking Hulkenbergs drive doesn’t look to have been for any great gain.

 

Interestingly enough, the same could be said for Stroll taking Ocon's seat at Racing Point a year earlier.

[PlatenGlass]

Replacing Brundle with Patrese at Benetton in 1993 didn't look too great.

 

Sacking Prost for Morbidelli at Ferrari in 1991!

[Kalmake]

Interestingly enough, the same could be said for Stroll taking Ocon's seat at Racing Point a year earlier.

Would have been foolish to not take the Stroll money.

[Lights]

Would have been foolish to not take the Stroll money.

 

Fair enough, depending of course on if you want to take the financial part into consideration when answering OP's question. I personally didn't read it that way but I could also understand that this is part of it.

[Lennat]

Depends if one considers Schumi to have been sort of thrown out or not (seems unclear to me), but replacing Schumi with Kimi was a mistake IMO.

[HeadFirst]

Depends if one considers Schumi to have been sort of thrown out or not (seems unclear to me), but replacing Schumi with Kimi was a mistake IMO.

 

Except the WDC of course.

[Lights]

Except the WDC of course.

 

You mean the one they lost in 2008?

[PlayboyRacer]

Depends if one considers Schumi to have been sort of thrown out or not (seems unclear to me), but replacing Schumi with Kimi was a mistake IMO.

Especially when you consider what Ferrari/PMI spent on Raikkonens contract. 1 million per week wasn't it?

You'd expect Schumacher-esque performances for that coin.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Grosjean replacing Piquet comes to mind, though in hindsight it was only for a few races when Renault needed Petrov’s millions.

[FortiFord]

Kimi replacing Massa in 2014 at Ferrari. 

[FortiFord]

Damon Hill is the most obvious one. Though that decision was made in '95, when Damon was having a rough patch of sorts.

 

To some extent, the Hill one depends on whether he would perform more like 95 or 96. 

[HeadFirst]

You mean the one they lost in 2008?

 

You mean after all the brilliant driver switches (Alonso, Vettel, and now Leclerc) Ferrari has made, you criticize the only move that actually paid off with a WDC. 

Edited by HeadFirst, 01 October 2020 - 22:15.

[Risil]

Every Benetton decision 1992-2002. Of course that's bookended by signing up two future double world champions so perhaps those were just the wages of Schumacher and Alonso.

[ensign14]

You can fill this thread up with Ecclestone's choices alone.

 

Replacing Wilson Fittipaldi with Richard Robarts/Rikky von Opel.

 

Replacing Carlos Reutemann with Larry Perkins.

 

Replacing Riccardo Patrese with the Fabi brothers.  I maintain that Bernie kept on the wrong Fabi.

 

Replacing the Fabis with François Hesnault. 

 

But the absolute nadir, and the biggest-ever mismatch between driver and replacement, was when Lauda quit the team, and Ecclestone installed in his place Ricardo Zunino.

 

Now, I appreciate Bernardo was basically stuck with any driver who had his helmet with him at Canada 1979, but Ecclestone then gave him the drive for 1980.  This was a driver who aspired to mediocrity in F2.  The equivalent would be Vettel walking out on Ferrari now, and Ferrari replacing him with Roy Nissany. 

 

The extent of his out-of-depthness can be seen with his best result - 7th - coming at Canada when he was 4 laps down (OK, new bug, give him some slack), but then again at Argentina 1980.  When he had had time and testing, at his home track, in a car that was capable of winning the title, yet he finished plumb last and was lapped by everyone.  And he DNQ'd at Monaco.  Game over.

 

Tyrrell also had some corkers, the no. 4 in 1980 had Daly scoring points and in 1981 Cogan not even qualifying, but they were almost always financially necessary.

[dissident]

Depends if one considers Schumi to have been sort of thrown out or not (seems unclear to me), but replacing Schumi with Kimi was a mistake IMO.

 

It sounds strange saying this because of the WDC in 2007, but I have to agree.

 

Not foolish by any means, but all things considered Kimi's stint(s) at Ferrari were rather average. Schumacher had 2 more WDC's in him IMO.

[ARTGP]

Driver is booted out, despite not being a total waste of space - to make room for some hotshot who the team is pinning their hopes upon. And then it goes to ****, and it all ends up looking like a big mistake.

What examples do you lament the most?

Still early days, but Ocon taking Hulkenbergs drive doesn’t look to have been for any great gain.

Frentzen being announced as replacing Hill - in the middle of Hills championship year... well that didn’t turn out especially well for Frentzen and Williams. That said - Frentzens replacement in 99 (Zanardi) was even worse.

 

Ocon didn't take Hulkenberg's seat. Hulkenberg was offered a 1 year contract, and he didn't take it according to Alain Prost.  Hulk was just fed up with the team to the point he'd rather play with puppies in Monaco than drive.

Edited by ARTGP, 01 October 2020 - 23:28.

[solochamp07]

Ricciardo for Gasly didn’t age well.

[KavB]

Bruno Senna replacing both Heidfeld and Barrichello in 2011 and 2012. Heidfeld and Rubens weren't at their best at this time, but it was a downgrade to replace them with Senna. Rubens especially would have brought a lot more points in that 2012 Williams. I still can't believe Williams declined signing Raikkonen who was still a top driver at the time. 

 

KMag replacing Perez at McLaren. Given how Sergio's and Magnussen's careers have played out I would say McLaren downgraded by getting rid of Perez. Of course, he would have been replaced in 2015 anyway when Alonso was brought back. They also released KMag completely from McLaren in 2015 but kept Vandoorne on and I think Kevin would have achieved more than Stoffel in 2018. 

[solochamp07]

^ I know he technically wasn’t dumped but big picture I think he kinda was.

[ARTGP]

Ricciardo for Gasly didn’t age well.

 

Ricc wasn't booted technically. Although the energy surrounding Max may have instigated that conclusion.

 

For what it's worth, Ricc didn't lose anything, nor did Gasly, Albon or Red Bull. Nobody not named Mercedes is relevant. Gasly-Albon are not helping the cause, but the car isn't good enough in Max's hands regardless 

Edited by ARTGP, 01 October 2020 - 23:32.

[potmotr]

Bruno Senna replacing both Heidfeld and Barrichello in 2011 and 2012. Heidfeld and Rubens weren't at their best at this time, but it was a downgrade to replace them with Senna. Rubens especially would have brought a lot more points in that 2012 Williams. I still can't believe Williams declined signing Raikkonen who was still a top driver at the time. 

 

 

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

[PlayboyRacer]

To some extent, the Hill one depends on whether he would perform more like 95 or 96.

In hindsight I really feel Damon was judged harshly in 1995. Up against a prime Schumacher, in a strong Benetton Renault, I don't think another driver on the 1995 grid would have beaten MS. In a Williams FW17 or not.

I'm pretty sure Sir Frank has admitted it was a mistake letting Damon go. Certainly Adrian Newey wasn't pleased with it. Made all the worse as they then had a high quality and perfectly balanced pairing in 1996.

Williams should have had Jacques and Damon for a good 3 seasons. They worked well together.

[Atreiu]

Raikkonen for Massa in 2014.

[Izzyeviel]

Fisi replacing Badeor... one good performance for Force India and goes onto perform slightly better than Luca. 

 

Jordan NOT replacing Damon in 1999 was a big cock up

[Cornholio]

Replacing Brundle with Patrese at Benetton in 1993 didn't look too great.

Sacking Prost for Morbidelli at Ferrari in 1991!

Completely agree with the first, I think in hindsight Brundle suffered from people not realising just how good Schumacher was, like he was "just" a promising youngster rather than future 7 time champion.

On the second, well I mean sacking Alain Prost in any context is daft but Morbidelli was just a last minute stand-in as Ferrari's test/reserve despite already driving for Minardi and actually did a decent job in Adelaide. Capelli was the actual replacement. And once the deed was done I actually think Morbidelli would have done a better job than Capelli in 1992, for whatever that's worth in that awful F92A.

[Alfisti]

I will hear nothing ill of Larry Perkins, the man never got a shot at it! Hethen!

Ocon for hulk is stupid, I mean the mentioning of it in this thread. Its pretty clear dan is better dialed in this year and the mid field is so tight, 3 tenths is 5 places.

As for who I would go with, I need to sort between poltical and strategic moves with actual driver replacements, and there are not many tbh.

For a pure driver's move, the biggest own goal I've seen is the handing of baku 2018 that basically forced dans hand to go elsewhere. RBR are absolutely lost for a second driver and he was damn near perfect.

Otherwise, anyone who has run grosjean instead of anyone else, he is that bad.

[Myrvold]

Grosjean replacing Piquet comes to mind, though in hindsight it was only for a few races when Renault needed Petrov’s millions.

 

No driver who jumped in a KERS or KERS-designed car that year had any results to speak of until they got the cars sorted and the drivers got used to it. BMW were fine, but unstable the first races, but then struggled bad. Renault were bad the whole year. McLaren started disappointing, but managed to things sorted after halfway through the year. Ferrari was the same, except they got their car sorted a bit earlier.

However, Grosjean, Badoer and Fisichella, who all jumped in to these KERS/KERS-designed cars with no testing struggled bad. Just like the main drivers in those teams had until they managed to get enough mileage (7-8 race weekends including testing)

 

Bruno Senna replacing both Heidfeld and Barrichello in 2011 and 2012. Heidfeld and Rubens weren't at their best at this time, but it was a downgrade to replace them with Senna. Rubens especially would have brought a lot more points in that 2012 Williams. I still can't believe Williams declined signing Raikkonen who was still a top driver at the time. 

 

Wasn't both economically driven? Though arguably Senna should've had that 2011 seat based on him being the reserve-driver. Barrichello probably would've been better, but whoever was put in that seat alongside Maldonado would've had to sit out 15 FP1's that year, and known that they were just a one-year race-seat warmer for Bottas. So not the best working environment. Probably why they said no to Räikkönen as well. Bottas would get that race-seat in 2013 anyway, and they couldn't throw the Maldonado-money out.

 

I feel replacing Badoer with Fisichella was foolish, and just Ferrari giving in for pressure instead of trying to work with Badoer. As much as Badoer is ridiculed for his two races, Fisichella who came from a 2nd place in Spa, only got out of Q1 once in the Ferrari, and even managed to qualify last for his 5th and last race in the team.
That's what Badoer got over over 10 years of loyalty and testing-effort, even getting overlooked for the 99 Ferrari replacement. 2 races, thrown out for a driver who got no better results. Fisichella then got a Ferrari GT drive, while Badoer was given a FIAT and goodbye.

Edited by Myrvold, 02 October 2020 - 03:38.

[Dhillon]

Kimi replacing Schumacher.

[SenorSjon]

Ricciardo for Gasly didn’t age well.

 

That wasn't by team choice.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Verstappen replacing Magnussen was stupid move.

[ensign14]

McLaren replacing Prost with de Cesaris

Alfa replacing Andretti with de Cesaris

Ligier replacing Jarier with de Cesaris

Brabham replacing Warwick with de Cesaris

Scuderia Italia replacing an empty seat with de Cesaris

[jcbc3]

Verstappen replacing Magnussen was stupid move.

 

Jan was a good enough driver at the time, but too immature. Especially driving for Stewart

[Claudius]

McLaren replacing Prost with de Cesaris

Alfa replacing Andretti with de Cesaris

Ligier replacing Jarier with de Cesaris

Brabham replacing Warwick with de Cesaris

Scuderia Italia replacing an empty seat with de Cesaris

 

 

[KavB]

 

Wasn't both economically driven? Though arguably Senna should've had that 2011 seat based on him being the reserve-driver. Barrichello probably would've been better, but whoever was put in that seat alongside Maldonado would've had to sit out 15 FP1's that year, and known that they were just a one-year race-seat warmer for Bottas. So not the best working environment. Probably why they said no to Räikkönen as well. Bottas would get that race-seat in 2013 anyway, and they couldn't throw the Maldonado-money out.

 

I feel replacing Badoer with Fisichella was foolish, and just Ferrari giving in for pressure instead of trying to work with Badoer. As much as Badoer is ridiculed for his two races, Fisichella who came from a 2nd place in Spa, only got out of Q1 once in the Ferrari, and even managed to qualify last for his 5th and last race in the team.
That's what Badoer got over over 10 years of loyalty and testing-effort, even getting overlooked for the 99 Ferrari replacement. 2 races, thrown out for a driver who got no better results. Fisichella then got a Ferrari GT drive, while Badoer was given a FIAT and goodbye.

Yes which is why I understand why they did it but from a performance aspect it was a downgrade. The same would be true if Honda took Senna for 09 before they pulled out which could have cost them the championship had the stayed (and assuming their engine was good enough for a title).

[Spillage]

Not sure to what extent he was forced out of Ferrari but I'd have fancied Schumacher to deliver both the 2007 and 2008 world titles if he hadn't retired.

McLaren replacing Perez with Magnussen wasn't a great move. Perez has gone on to have a good career and they should have given him more time to make his mark.

Fittipaldi being replaced at Lotus by a past it Jacky Ickx would be another, though again I'm not sure to what extent Fittipaldi was forced out of Lotus. Fittipaldi won the world title the following season, but driving a McLaren.

Edited by Spillage, 02 October 2020 - 08:54.

[Dolph]

Dropping HHF mid season was probably because Eddie needed him gone for some contractual reason to hire Sato next year.

Dropping Trulli mid season was more likely a problem with Flavios ego and a big mistake for Renault.

[Burai]

Frentzen getting booted out mid 2001 at Jordan always struck me as the height of silliness. HHF had been instrumental in their rise up the grid and was not the reason why they didn’t make the progress they wanted in 2001. Trulli had started to beat him in qualifying; but Trulli beat everyone in qualifying. Frentzen was still driving quite well, albeit frustrated at their lack of progress. If I remember right, he finished a decent seventh at Silverstone, then he was out.

That can’t have been about the driving. He and Trulli were a strong pairing, and were pretty close on performance. There were rumours about a big fallout behind the scenes, which must have some basis because that’s the only way it ever made sense. Jordan ended up signing Jean Alesi in a seat swap with HHF who went to Prost - Frentzen qualified fourth at Spa but that was a flash in the pan and Alesi didn’t do much at Jordan either.

Also, Toyota booting out Cristiano Da Matta mid-season in 2004. He was doing fine, wasn’t he?

 

 

EJ thought he could get the works Honda deal if he got Sato on-board and needed a reason to break Frentzen's contract. Of course, he pissed off DHL in the process too, but that didn't matter; as the works Honda team with Vodafone title sponsorship they'd be unstoppable...

 

Completely agree with the first, I think in hindsight Brundle suffered from people not realising just how good Schumacher was, like he was "just" a promising youngster rather than future 7 time champion.

 

They also thought that Patrese would be able to help them clone Williams' active ride system, which shows an almost childlike understanding of how an F1 team works.

[Lennat]

Fisi replacing Badeor... one good performance for Force India and goes onto perform slightly better than Luca. 

 

Jordan NOT replacing Damon in 1999 was a big cock up

 

You are of course right in the sense that Fisi failed, but who would have done better out of the realistic candidates? 

[JRodrigues]

Raikkonen for Alonso.

[Burai]

Fisi did alright out of the Ferrari move, really. He fulfilled his childhood dream (albeit not in quite the way he'd have liked) and has spent the last ten years (and counting) on the Ferrari payroll as a factory GT driver, picking up two GTE Pro class wins at Le Mans and a WEC title. Not shabby at all.

[Jops14]

Ive seen it mentioned but decisions that will always irk me

Ferrari not giving Badoer the 99 seat instead of Salo, just a moral injustice and i believe he would have performed at the same level
And then Ferrari replacing Badoer before Monza - in hindsight Badoer look far better because of how bad Fisi did, but i felt he could have turned a corner and got some points by the end

Someone mentioned Da Matta - believe thay was because he called the car crap

McLaren replacing Perez with Magnussen...
McLaren replacing Alonso with Kovalainen
Renault replacing Button with Trulli

[JRodrigues]

Binott... ok, it's only drivers.

[Jellyfishcake]

Ive seen it mentioned but decisions that will always irk me

Ferrari not giving Badoer the 99 seat instead of Salo, just a moral injustice and i believe he would have performed at the same level
And then Ferrari replacing Badoer before Monza - in hindsight Badoer look far better because of how bad Fisi did, but i felt he could have turned a corner and got some points by the end

Someone mentioned Da Matta - believe thay was because he called the car crap

McLaren replacing Perez with Magnussen...
McLaren replacing Alonso with Kovalainen
Renault replacing Button with Trulli

 

With McLaren Alonso left them so not sure i'd count this here really.

And technically Alonso replaced Button at Renault as Button and Truli were teammates in 2002