211 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Max Verstappen's angry comments over the radio during Portugal free practice have led to what could be described as an international incident (I'm only half-joking), as sensitive people around the world have condemned his use of the words "retard" and "mongol" to describe Lance Stroll, who he was angry with after they managed to collide out on the circuit. We've gone into whether or not that choice of words is unacceptable at some length elsewhere, but I'm more interested in the ethics of F1 taking Verstappen's words at a uniquely high-pressure situation and making them part of the broadcast. F1 can censor radio messages by bleeping out words, and indeed by choosing not to broadcast one in the first place, so there's clearly an editorial decision being made (one being made under significant time pressure, admittedly). But are they making the right decisions?

Of course this isn't just about Verstappen. I found it hard to believe that Sebastian Vettel received minimal punishment for bauling out race director Charlie Whiting at a Mexican Grand Prix some years ago. And going down the scale of severity, every race thread involves someone or other wishing they didn't have to hear Lewis Hamilton complaining to his engineers about tyres, or brakes, or engine modes, or whatever. And then back up the scale again, I wish I'd never heard Jenson Button sing "We Are The Champions". Of course, there's a line to be drawn somewhere between broadcasting radio messages for the drama value, and to educate viewers about race strategy, car issues and generally the state of the race.

Should the F1 broadcaster be reporting the radio comments of drivers as they are, in its function as news gatherer? Should they be protecting the reputations of their drivers by keeping demeaning comments private? Are they exploiting the high tension and pressure for entertainment value? If so, who is harmed? As Chris Morris once said, it's a strong feelings kidney whichever way you slice it. Post your brains below. Bonus points for mentioning how other racing series do it.

[renzmann]

Let the individual driver decide.

[Requiem84]

I think that at the least, F1 should be consistent and their radio-broadcasting approach.

 

Verstappen's radio was broadcasted without any censoring. The arguably less offensive language of Norris was censored a lot however. 

[owenmahamilton]

I think that all the radio transmissions should be broadcast, if the snowflake viewers don't like it then go and watch something else, it's the same with the football, with no crowds in the ground it's a lot easier to hear the players swearing and so the commentators feel the need to apologise when it gets picked up by the pitch side microphones. It did use to happen when there were fans in the stand but it seems to happen a lot more now.

[FirstnameLastname]

They make a feature out of it on social media - usually one of their most watched outputs of the week ‘the best team radio’ and there’s quite a lot of stuff that doesn’t make it to the tv broadcast.

I say keep it, and then the drivers can self police what they say and live/die by the sword

A lot of times they say stuff knowing it’ll be broadcast, including some of the sweary rants Im sure....

[PlatenGlass]

While I enjoy listening to some of the comments ("GP2 engine" is a classic) I sometimes wonder if we should be listening to essentially private driver/team discussions at all.

Why don't we get to see the drivers' briefing?

[babbel]

I think that at the least, F1 should be consistent and their radio-broadcasting approach.

 

Verstappen's radio was broadcasted without any censoring. The arguably less offensive language of Norris was censored a lot however. 

It wasn't. On the world feed it was with bleeps. People grapped it from the onboard F1tv stream and put it on the internet

[Beri]

I never understood the narrow minded approach to censor/bleep messages. I will never understand this also.

[Marklar]

i like to guess what they said

[Dicun]

While in general I'm really keen on civilised manners and giving feedback in a measured, respectful way, in the heat of the battle when the drivers' heart rate is in the 150-200 BPM region, it is such a fatuous thing to expect drivers to give rational, mild-mannered and thought out opinions. Once the race is over and they have a chance to cool down, it's okay to expect them to choose their words more wisely (and they usually do). But during a race? No, come on now, that would be utter hypocrisy and unrealistic. They are human being, under intense pressure in racing situations. Some handle it in a milder way (I remember Gutiérrez only saying "wow, what was that?" when Maldonado crashed into him and made him do a 360 flip in the first corner at the first corner of Abu Dhabi back in 2014, it surprised me how Esteban never used any swear words), while some guys like Max are more highly strung and that's perfectly okay. Let radio messages broadcasted untouched, I say.

[P123]

They do tend to broadcast complaining over anything else, whether it is drivers complaining about other drivers (9/10 for trivial things), or other examples such as Lewis complaining about his tyres, or Max having something wrong with his engine.... we never really get to hear the more mundane chatter, but then a wing adjustment or fuel usage wouldn't necessarily get people talking.

[PlatenGlass]

It wasn't. On the world feed it was with bleeps. People grapped it from the onboard F1tv stream and put it on the internet

That's still being broadcast without censoring.

[FirstnameLastname]

The guys have the opportunity to apologise after the race for anything that’s properly offensive, so leave it to them to decide.

But you could imagine something being said that’s not able to be apologised for and it could end up with careers being ended.

[thiscocks]

They should not put out any rants or complaints from the drivers. It's pointless, not entertaining and just makes the drivers seem a bit stupid. Why alot of drivers feel the need to push the radio button while ranting though is anyones guess.

[Imperial]

thiscockssaid

Its not live though so any conversation aired is chosen to be by the governing body. It's up to them to choose what to put out so blame them if offense is taken.

 

So if a driver uses that most awful of racist words (The N Word) and FOM broadcast it, we should hear not one word of criticism against the driver, and just take our complaint up with FOM instead?

 

There is nothing different to saying The N Word or saying ret@rd or mongol. People have taken offense at it, end of story.

Edited by Imperial, 27 October 2020 - 11:49.

[Lennat]

Yes, the world needs more censorship.

[FirstnameLastname]

The driver is making a conscious decision to press the button and be heard. They could swear about the other drivers like a trooper with no need to apologise if they just didn’t put their finger on that button... but they actively want/choose it to be broadcast.

[FirstnameLastname]

Imagine a driver comes into F1 and he’s fighting against Mick Schumacher and Schumi Jnr clips his front wing and he puts his finger on the radio button and rants something along the lines of ‘That F*****g idiot, what’s he doing?! Does he want to end up in a wheelchair like his dad?!’

Would it be wrong? Would an apology be sufficient? Would it be better if he’d said it but we didn’t know he’d said it?

[baku]

The main issue with broadcasting i have is that every sentence is measured against all the worlds issues. People should be aloud to say stupid stuff in private without the world condemning everything they say.

People are never one dimensional, and looking at the discussions past few days, people tend to base their complete view of one's personality based on one or two clumpsy comments.

This is a broader issue in today's society. But i dont like it.

So yes, i would like to know relevant for the race stuff. I dont want to hear drivers swearing and say things they might regret. Cause how stupid and blunt these swears may be, they are not for us to hear and to condemn.

Edited by baku, 27 October 2020 - 12:01.

[DeKnyff]

No, they shouldn't be censored at all and drivers should face the consequences of their words. They are grown adults, they are professionals, they know their conversations may be aired and they should act consequently.

 

Formula 1 drivers earn millions and have access to many privileges. Fair enough, but please accept some very small inconveniences in exchange, such as keeping their mouth shut when necessary.

 

And please don't tell me the words "adrenaline", "tension", "they are humans" and all that. First quality required for being a F1 driver is to keep your cool under most extreme circumstances, such as controlling in hundredths of a second a sudden slide of a car on a wet surface at 300 kph. Compared to that, making a very small effort in your vocabulary should be a piece of cake.

 

Besides, even if you fail and start saying ugly things on the radio, you can always apologize later.

[Retrofly]

The selective nature of the broadcasts means that F1 can try and set a narrative with certain drivers in certain ways, I dislike that aspect. Just feels like they are trying to add drama because there isn't enough of it in the racing.

 

I think expletive rants shouldn't be broadcast at all, its a heat of the moment thing and not very sportsman like, there's no need for us to hear it, same reason why referees are not mic'ed up for Football (soccer) matches.

All transcripts of radio messages should be made available to the public if they so wish to read them for transparency though.

[Broekschaap]

Imagine a driver comes into F1 and he’s fighting against Mick Schumacher and Schumi Jnr clips his front wing and he puts his finger on the radio button and rants something along the lines of ‘That F*****g idiot, what’s he doing?! Does he want to end up in a wheelchair like his dad?!’

Would it be wrong? Would an apology be sufficient? Would it be better if he’d said it but we didn’t know he’d said it?

Why would i ever want to imagine that? But to keep it pratical: yes, probally not for Schumacher but that is for him to decide, i like to think the cat is alive!

[Marklar]

not really sure how thats worth a discussion. it's the FOM's product to sell, and insulting other ethnic groups (or whatever) isnt what they want to sell, and it isnt what they should either.

Edited by Marklar, 27 October 2020 - 12:09.

[Risil]

Oops, I managed to disappear the poll somehow. It's back now, please vote again.

[cpbell]

thiscockssaid

 

So if a driver uses that most awful of racist words (The N Word) and FOM broadcast it, we should hear not one word of criticism against the driver, and just take our complaint up with FOM instead?

 

There is nothing different to saying The N Word or saying ret@rd or mongol. People have taken offense at it, end of story.

Absolutely - they are comparable terms.
 

[SophieB]

The selective nature of the broadcasts means that F1 can try and set a narrative with certain drivers in certain ways, I dislike that aspect. Just feels like they are trying to add drama because there isn't enough of it in the racing.

 

I think expletive rants shouldn't be broadcast at all, its a heat of the moment thing and not very sportsman like, there's no need for us to hear it, same reason why referees are not mic'ed up for Football (soccer) matches.

All transcripts of radio messages should be made available to the public if they so wish to read them for transparency though.

 

But to an extent, the 'heat of the moment' can be revealing. For example, the most startling aspect to me of Vettel's c-word laced rants about Verstappen and Alonso and him telling his team that CW could eff off during the Mexico weekend wasn't just the words themselves but the obvious degree of his rage. He sounded like he'd utterly lost it. That bothered me way more than the actual insults and I think it is relevant that the public knew about it.

 

( I also found it quite amusing how he was made to apologise to Verstappen for what he called him but not Alonso for the same thing!)

[uzsjgb]

While in general I'm really keen on civilised manners and giving feedback in a measured, respectful way, in the heat of the battle when the drivers' heart rate is in the 150-200 BPM region, it is such a fatuous thing to expect drivers to give rational, mild-mannered and thought out opinions. Once the race is over and they have a chance to cool down, it's okay to expect them to choose their words more wisely (and they usually do). But during a race? No, come on now, that would be utter hypocrisy and unrealistic. They are human being, under intense pressure in racing situations. Some handle it in a milder way (I remember Gutiérrez only saying "wow, what was that?" when Maldonado crashed into him and made him do a 360 flip in the first corner at the first corner of Abu Dhabi back in 2014, it surprised me how Esteban never used any swear words), while some guys like Max are more highly strung and that's perfectly okay. Let radio messages broadcasted untouched, I say.

 

People always should be allowed to speak freely. This is the best way to discern what they are really about. Even if people are under stress they won't use terms they usually don't use. No one accidently uses a racist term, if this term is not already a part of that person's vocabulary.

 

I think the FIA should give Verstappen the time to learn from his mistakes, just as NASCAR gave Larson that time. Instead, at the moment it looks the FIA should scrap their "We Race as One" initiative, as it does not seem sincere at all.

[Risil]

People always should be allowed to speak freely. This is the best way to discern what they are really about. Even if people are under stress they won't use terms they usually don't use. No one accidently uses a racist term, if this term is not already a part of that person's vocabulary.

 

I think the FIA should give Verstappen the time to learn from his mistakes, just as NASCAR gave Larson that time. Instead, at the moment it looks the FIA should scrap their "We Race as One" initiative, as it does not seem sincere at all.

 

Are you saying Max should be indefinitely suspended from racing, as Larson was?

[ANF]

I voted ***** and **********.

[Calum]

Would prefer no >bleeps< if they are swearing.

 

They are already selective with radio, exaggerating stereotypes to fit the narrative, or prominence given to key drivers.

 

Eg. You hear Hamilton moaning about tires regularly but just because you almost never hear Giovenazzi on tv. Doesn't mean AG isn't ever frustrated either.

Eg. Albon in Germany got a pathetic broadcast aired when the Alpha Tauri car had the audacity to fight him! It added to the idea of him languishing in the RedBull.

 

I don't overly care about team radio, but can see why they have it to add a bit of dram/storyline.. 

Edited by Calum, 27 October 2020 - 12:24.

[Garndell]

I don't think they should be censored but I do think there should be punishments for some things.  Swearing should carry a monetary fine, while homophobic, racist, sexist, ableist etc should carry points penalties and a fine.  This is supposed to be a family friendly sport, the FIA/Liberty should act like they actually care about it a little.

[Ivanhoe]

Absolutely - they are comparable terms.
 

Hmm, intuitively I feel there is a difference between them. I don't associate 'mongol' with racism as I do with the N-word. As condemnable as the use of the word Mongol in a swearing context is, I don't think it's intentional racist, which makes a difference for me.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 27 October 2020 - 12:33.

[SophieB]

Just for the context on Vettel, this was the decision/conclusions drawn by the FIA.

 

 

 

 

[Vitesse2]

The selective nature of the broadcasts means that F1 can try and set a narrative with certain drivers in certain ways, I dislike that aspect. Just feels like they are trying to add drama because there isn't enough of it in the racing.

 

I think expletive rants shouldn't be broadcast at all, its a heat of the moment thing and not very sportsman like, there's no need for us to hear it, same reason why referees are not mic'ed up for Football (soccer) matches.

All transcripts of radio messages should be made available to the public if they so wish to read them for transparency though.

Rugby referees - at least at top level - wear microphones. Whether it's tempered the language of rugby players I don't know. And in international cricket there are stump microphones, which sometimes pick up some very ungentlemanly comments, although in general the feed is muted on the broadcast, as they're primarily there for the review system. However, they don't always remember - after a particularly offensive comment from a Sri Lankan fielder and silence in the commentary box for about ten seconds we heard Mike Holding's laconic voice [read this in a Jamaican accent]; "You might have heard some French there, sorry 'bout that ..."

[baku]

No, they shouldn't be censored at all and drivers should face the consequences of their words. They are grown adults, they are professionals, they know their conversations may be aired and they should act consequently.

 

Formula 1 drivers earn millions and have access to many privileges. Fair enough, but please accept some very small inconveniences in exchange, such as keeping their mouth shut when necessary.

 

And please don't tell me the words "adrenaline", "tension", "they are humans" and all that. First quality required for being a F1 driver is to keep your cool under most extreme circumstances, such as controlling in hundredths of a second a sudden slide of a car on a wet surface at 300 kph. Compared to that, making a very small effort in your vocabulary should be a piece of cake.

 

Besides, even if you fail and start saying ugly things on the radio, you can always apologize later.

 

In essence i agree with you. But next to the drivers, we as an audience should also learn to stop judgeing so quicky. We should also take a step back, breath, take a look at some context before we start judging and start demonising people only for something they said.
Its easy to have the moral highground sitting on your sofa cherry picking peoples comment. But its just not that simple.

But i fully agree, drivers should just learn to avoid this.


 

[DeKnyff]

Hmm, intuitively I feel there is a difference between them. I don't associate 'mongol' with racism as I do with the N-word. As condemnable as the use of the word Mongol in a swearing context is, I don't think it's intentional racist, which makes a difference for me.

Even if it was not specifically racist, it's using a personal condition which affect some people (and their families) as an insult.

[Ivanhoe]

It's not about demonising, but about drivers being hold accountable for what they say, wherther it is in the heat of the moment or not. 

[Ivanhoe]

Even if it was not specifically racist, it's using a personal condition which affect some people (and their families) as an insult.

True, but for me there is a difference between an insult and right-out racism. To be clear, I condemn both.

[Thursday]

The races are usually Sunday lunch time and I dont want swearing to be broadcast during family TV viewing. Bleeping out the swearing isn't much better because the average ten year old knows exactly what is being said. Hearing top class sportsmen (and Stroll) swearing normalises this behaviour. 

Sweary driver rants add very little to the show and do nothing to help us, the viewers, understand strategy or performance issues. We know someone involved in a collision is going to be angry.

The fact that the messages are bleeped shows that FOM know they are 'unbroadcastable' but they air them anyway because they have seen how popular the uncensored clips are on the internet.

Keep the radio messages of drivers moaning about tyres, strategy, traffic, rain, slow safety cars etc. Keep the messages where drivers are saying all is good, like Hamilton last time out. Just drop the angry, expletive laden explosions of rage.

[MasterOfCoin]

We need a option in the poll for not broadcasting messages period...

[Misk]

It’s a tough one for me. I also hated hearing Button sing ‘We are the champions’ too. It was pure cringe and sounded quite contrived (not helped by the fact Alonso sang exactly the same song in 2006). On the flip side as a Vettel fan, one of my absolute favourite moments in F1 of all time was hearing Rocky scream “Weltmeister” at him and then him sobbing “Thank you boys” as the emotion overtook him at Abu Dhabi in 2010. It still gets played back quite a bit on the official F1 YouTube channel and I think it was a great moment that shows the real passion behind the sport the drivers have.

I guess you have to take the good with the bad. I lost interest in F1 for a few years as a teenager in the early 2000s and I do think the kind of team radio and access we get to the drivers nowadays might have helped keep me as a fan during those years.

[Retrofly]

Rugby referees - at least at top level - wear microphones. Whether it's tempered the language of rugby players I don't know. And in international cricket there are stump microphones, which sometimes pick up some very ungentlemanly comments, although in general the feed is muted on the broadcast, as they're primarily there for the review system. However, they don't always remember - after a particularly offensive comment from a Sri Lankan fielder and silence in the commentary box for about ten seconds we heard Mike Holding's laconic voice [read this in a Jamaican accent]; "You might have heard some French there, sorry 'bout that ..."

Yes Rugby refs are miced up and they are constantly having to apologize for bad language when you over hear it from the players. Rife in all sport doesn't mean we need to hear it.

[Imperial]

Folk seem to be missing the point that it isn't the fact it was broadcast that made it offensive, it is the fact it was offensive full stop.

Even if, as many have said, it was said 'in private' (which is a nonsense concept anyway, given how numerous team personnel are included in the radio loop) why should it be any better? Suppose any of the team in that radio loop have a child or family member born with Down's Syndrome, or some other disability, are they not entitled to take offense?

There are two discussions really, which I'm not sure the thread can accomodate. One is about radio, the other is about a driver having an appalling attitude.

There is actually a former WDC very entitled to take offense at what he said, but Max clearly isn't mindful of that fact either.

p.s. maybe FOM took the 'editorial decision' to broadcast Max's comments to demonstrate what a stupid thing it was to say?

Edited by Imperial, 27 October 2020 - 13:02.

[midgrid]

I like the rugby approach, but it's not applicable to F1 unless all drivers' radios are being broadcast live (I don't think F1TV has got this far). The key issue is that there is editorial control over what is broadcast on the world feed, akin to the rugby referee deciding to mute and unmute the microphone at their discretion.

EDIT: for the record, I think it would be fine if all drivers' radios were broadcast and monitored in their entirety, and sanctions applied if agreed rules are breached. After all, the driver is making a choice to use the radio.

[DeKnyff]

I don't think the problem is swearing, like the "f" word. In fact, I think the bips make it worse than the real words. I don't believe many people are shocked by that in 2020.

 

Problem is when we come into the derogatory terrain. That shouldn't be acceptable.

[babbel]

But to an extent, the 'heat of the moment' can be revealing. For example, the most startling aspect to me of Vettel's c-word laced rants about Verstappen and Alonso and him telling his team that CW could eff off during the Mexico weekend wasn't just the words themselves but the obvious degree of his rage. He sounded like he'd utterly lost it. That bothered me way more than the actual insults and I think it is relevant that the public knew about it.

 

( I also found it quite amusing how he was made to apologise to Verstappen for what he called him but not Alonso for the same thing!)

To me it always looked like Vettel got a slap on the wrist for the things he said to Charlie and not really what he called Verstappen but it all got intertwined. What Vettel said in the heat of the moment to a fellow competitor (in this case Verstappen) was fine with me, what he said to an official (Charlie) was way way out of line.

[Misk]

Just to take the comment about cricket. “Sledging”, as it’s known in cricket is totally different to what goes on in F1. It’s been part of the sport for around 40 years now and is considered all part of the psychological battle that goes on during a 5 days test match. Unlike F1, where the opposing drivers don’t hear the comments during the race, it is all part of trying to break down your opponent. Not to mention that sledging normal tends to be pretty inventive - I’m sure most international cricketers would be ashamed to come out with the base comments Verstappen and Norris did over the weekend.

[smitten]

as sensitive people around the world have condemned his use of the words "******" and "mongol" to describe Lance Stroll, who he was angry with after they managed to collide out on the circuit. We've gone into whether or not that choice of words is unacceptable at some length elsewhere, but I'm more interested in the ethics of F1 taking Verstappen's words at a uniquely high-pressure situation and making them part of the broadcast.

If you think people taking issue with his choice of language are 'sensitive' then you should ask yourself if you are just 'insensitive'.  And yes, for family viewing the radio should be censored.  Even if I personally may not agree with all of them, we have broadcasting standards and watersheds for a reason.

Edited by smitten, 27 October 2020 - 13:15.

[Clatter]

I'm not concerned about the language, but if you have young children I can see why people would be. I'm more concerned about the way the messages are put out. They are usually a lap or 2 later than when the spoken, and used out of context to provide a false narrative. If the racing were good enough, FOM wouldn't need that sort of gimmick to try and induce some false excitement.

[Fastcake]

They’re going to have to bleep the swearing, unless FOM want a hundred broadcasters shouting at them. There’s some countries that would take F1 off the air if you had too many ****s

I tend to think it’s good to know what the drivers are thinking and how they are reacting, even when that’s at the more extreme end. What do they think about that incident (usually it’s not their fault!), are they angry, not thinking straight, is there a genuine problem brewing between them and their team? You can learn a lot, and sometimes how they react says something about their character, and perhaps which ones are better under pressure.

I think sometimes you may have to censure those that cross the line. Perhaps for the drivers own sake, before they end up saying something stupid that really gets them into trouble. I remember when the podium interviews started, and some drivers swore, and a few others started copying them until F1 told them to knock it off. It was a bit like 14 year olds trying to be cool in front of their mates and it was probably for the best no one said anything. You do also want to keep a certain amount of respect towards the officials. Charlie Whiting wasn’t the type to remotely care what Vettel said, but the point was that you have to respect the decisions made, even when you think they’re wrong.