954 replies to this topic

[Lights]

In 2017 Liberty hired Ross Brawn as the mastermind to work on the next generation of F1 cars, which generated too much downforce, made following other cars very difficult, and relied on DRS for overtaking.

Back then we got excited about Brawn's plans. After all, we believed a man of his capacity could work out something great for the sport. His initial ambitions sounded hopeful:

 

Brawn aiming to get rid of DRS for 2021

“What we should do is find a better solution. What we really want is the cars to be able to slipstream one another properly and overtake. So for me the solution, which we’ve now started a programme on, is to design the cars, so that they can race each other in close proximity. What we are working on is generating the capacity to look at cars that are racing each other in close proximity, and what sort of designs we need to enable that to happen," he confirmed. "When we do that, which is our ambition for 2021, then we will have cars that don’t need DRS.”

Racing without the need for DRS sounds fantastic. After all, it is a gimmick, and we often have situations were DRS ruins the racing by making it too easy to overtake. 

 

But just a year later in 2018 Brawn seemed to already hint at backing down from that ambition:

 

Brawn says DRS could stay in Formula 1 in 2021

"I think we can keep that in our pocket," he said. "I'd like to think we could reach a stage where DRS doesn't become so critical."

Alright, "I'd like to think we could reach a stage". What does that mean. And then last year it became clear the designs were taking DRS into account anyway:

F1 planning to keep DRS in 2021 – but may not use it

 

RaceFans understands the system is likely to be kept as a back-up in case the proposed regulations fail to provide the anticipated improvements in overtaking. If the system is present on the cars to begin with, its use could be prevented if the FIA chooses not to establish any DRS zones at a given track, which does not require regulation changes or agreement from the teams.

Due to COVID-19 the regulations were postponed a year, to 2022. If anything, that has given Brawn a year more to work with.

 

But instead we have Brawn pushing again for more gimmicks like reversed grid races, to which Vettel quite rightly replied "Obviously it's a testimony that if you are pushing in that direction that you have failed to come up with regulations and tools that bring the field more together, and make racing better on track."

 

And now McLaren’s technical director James Key has said he thinks DRS “will still be necessary” for F1 after 2022 rules changes: 

“I think if the plans work, [DRS] will be less influential. It will still be necessary because overtaking is really what these regs are based around, ultimately. [..] But the DRS there will probably still play its role in making sure that you can guarantee an overtake.” 

This all doesn't give me a lot of hope. And the reason is that teams will always find ways to create more downforce over time, thereby worsening the issue again.

 

If you're not even confident that they can start 2022 without DRS, what are the chances it works well without DRS in the years following?

 

So if they still start 2022 with DRS, even just to see 'how that is going', I fear we'll never get rid of it, and that this whole 5 year operation by Brawn has failed.

Edited by Lights, 05 November 2020 - 14:18.

[SenorSjon]

DRS will never go away unfortunately. 

[NixxxoN]

Create a car that has very low dirty air, then get rid of aero engineering in F1 altogether, and then we can get rid of DRS

[Rinehart]

I just don't understand why we have DRS when hybrid energy is perfect for push-to-pass/defend (much more skillful/strategic for the driver) and would give the manufacturers something to talk about vis vis electric technology.

[Marklar]

if you need it in 2022 you will need it even more after it since teams will get more familar with the new regs and thus find more downforce. It's either then or never.

[ANF]

And now McLaren’s technical director James Key has said he thinks DRS “will still be necessary” for F1 after 2022 rules changes:

“But the DRS there will probably still play its role in making sure that you can guarantee an overtake.”

:puke:

[maximilian]

As usual, F1 talk out of their ass and don't deliver.  Nothing new here.

[Beamer]

I just don't understand why we have DRS when hybrid energy is perfect for push-to-pass/defend (much more skillful/strategic for the driver) and would give the manufacturers something to talk about vis vis electric technology.

 

Whether it's electric or DRS it's an artificial means of preventing Trulli trains. Same difference. I'm guessing a lot of the anti-drs people out here either weren't around or forgotten about the late 90's early '00 parades.

Unless they add ground effect and remove a big chunk of other aero i'd rather have DRS. 

Edited by Beamer, 05 November 2020 - 12:29.

[Sterzo]

I see no news here, only the potential to criticise people without foundation. The intention of the new regs is to reduce the need for DRS, in the hope it can be dispensed with. It was never promised that DRS would be dropped as soon as the new regs came in. You need to see first whether they work. A perfectly sensible approach.

Edited by Sterzo, 05 November 2020 - 12:58.

[SenorSjon]

if you need it in 2022 you will need it even more after it since teams will get more familar with the new regs and thus find more downforce. It's either then or never.

 

I would lower the weight limit and no longer mandate the prescribed weight balance. Teams will need to build shorter cars to get to the weight limit. Now the longboats are facilitated.

[absinthedude]

Whether it's electric or DRS it's an artificial means of preventing Trulli trains. Same difference. I'm guessing a lot of the anti-drs people out here either weren't around or forgotten about the late 90's early '00 parades.

Unless they add ground effect and remove a big chunk of other aero i'd rather have DRS. 

 

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc. 

 

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

 

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this. 

 

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

[MasterOfCoin]

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc. 

 

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

 

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this. 

 

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

I think it's more unfair that a faster car has to be stuck behind a slower car lap after lap.....by potentially ruining other fights further up the grid.....

[Beri]

Downforce isnt the problem. The dirty air it creates is the problem.

 

As long as you go full ground effect, then there is no major issue as to why you will have to use DRS. Get rid of aerodynamic features like wings and you will have your solution entirely.

[Beri]

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc. 

 

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

 

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this. 

 

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

 

Last race Verstappen showed how it was usually done pre-DRS. Put pressure on the one in front (Bottas in this case) and wait out till he makes a mistake (or two). That Verstappen had to use DRS to be able to pass him completely, is the discussion at hand. But in effect it was what was to be expected from the olden days. The better days in my opinion.

[juicy sushi]

As long as the rules and the cars designed to them continue to suck, the gimmicks used to cure the initial incompetence will remain.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc. 

 

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

 

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this. 

 

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

 

Then what is aero turbulence from the car in front?

[Rinehart]

Whether it's electric or DRS it's an artificial means of preventing Trulli trains. Same difference. I'm guessing a lot of the anti-drs people out here either weren't around or forgotten about the late 90's early '00 parades.

Unless they add ground effect and remove a big chunk of other aero i'd rather have DRS. 

Put your bold font away! There is a significant difference between DRS and push to pass. Have a look at how P2P works in Indycar. Its strategic and overtakes still mean something, rather than DRS which is basically just a coupon to cash in. 

[Nemo1965]

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc. 

 

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

 

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this. 

 

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

 

I never understood why the FIA has not arranged that either:

 

1. The DRS closes automatically when the car behind is truly alongside (with current GPS-technology surely that must be able to be arranged)

2. The DRS opens for the car in front when the car behind is truly alongside.

 

That way the car in the rear can always come alongside... but still has to win the corner by braking later or choosing a different line.

[ARTGP]

Downforce isnt the problem. The dirty air it creates is the problem.

 

As long as you go full ground effect, then there is no major issue as to why you will have to use DRS. Get rid of aerodynamic features like wings and you will have your solution entirely.

 

It's a very complex problem.

 

First, the air spilling off the ground effects of the leading car has to go somewhere. That somewhere is going to be directly into the following car. So to some extent there is always "dirty air"

Second, ground effect is significantly less draggy than wings.  Wings make the slipstreaming possible. Without wings, the slipstream is weakened and that may have unintended consequences on raceability. There is a balance to achieve. 

Edited by ARTGP, 05 November 2020 - 14:51.

[BobbyRicky]

Create a car that has very low dirty air, then get rid of aero engineering in F1 altogether, and then we can get rid of DRS

 

So, no more "pinnacle of motorsport". Spec-series it is!

[Pingguest]

As long as cars generate an awful lot downforce, the series will continue to lack close racing and overtaking opportunities.

[ARTGP]

Fan cars would race well against one another I think.

 

I once proposed another type of DRS system. The Downforce Reduction System. The leading car loses his downforce in the corners but that might be far too gimmicky.

Edited by ARTGP, 05 November 2020 - 15:05.

[NixxxoN]

So, no more "pinnacle of motorsport". Spec-series it is!

Not necessarily, what I suggest that cars should have spec aero regs, but the internals and engine can still be worked on

That is in order to have continuously close racing and low dirty air, so to not need DRS anymore.

Edited by NixxxoN, 08 November 2020 - 00:52.

[ARTGP]

Not necessarily, what I suggest that cars should have spec aero regs, but the internals and engine can still be worked on

That is in order to have continuously close racing and low dirty, so to not need DRS anymore.

 

Like Nascar or Indycar? 

Edited by ARTGP, 05 November 2020 - 15:25.

[SenorSjon]

I think it's more unfair that a faster car has to be stuck behind a slower car lap after lap.....by potentially ruining other fights further up the grid.....

 

That fight will also be hampered by DRS, mandating overtaking spots and people forgetting about others.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Last race Verstappen showed how it was usually done pre-DRS. Put pressure on the one in front (Bottas in this case) and wait out till he makes a mistake (or two). That Verstappen had to use DRS to be able to pass him completely, is the discussion at hand. But in effect it was what was to be expected from the olden days. The better days in my opinion.

That worked better in the olden days, when the differences in pace between drivers were often an order of magnitude greater, and when drivers actually made mistakes frequently enough.

[NixxxoN]

Like Nascar or Indycar? 

Kind of.
However I can't see it happening, rather DRS will remain in F1

[MasterOfCoin]

That fight will also be hampered by DRS, mandating overtaking spots and people forgetting about others.

Are you referring to a DRS train?...because in some instances those are also annoying....

[Beamer]

Ahem....I am fully able to remember the late 90s....and not yet sufficiently ancient to have descended into memory loss. I even have every single race from that era live on either tape or disc.

I am still vehemently anti-DRS becuase it is inherently unfair....in that the car trying to close in has it and the car under pressure does not. It is artificial and has been around far too long.

Some of us have been saying this for over 30 years.....there does need to be a change to the aero regs which permits cars to follow each other closely through medium and fast corners. I have some hope that the ground effect 2022 regs might deliver this.

Other ideas are available such as banning front wings, specifying a permitted range of angles of rear wings to the horizontal, banning all the bloody barge boards and silly little aero devices between the front wheels and rear wing. But ground effect will do nicely if it works. Hell, I am old enough to remember "Gentlemen, Lift Your Skirts".

I thought I said 'a lot of...' not 'all of...', so dont act all offended...

And i appear to remember saying we need to reduce aero dependency and add ground effect as well. So basically your confirming my post.

[Beamer]

Put your bold font away! There is a significant difference between DRS and push to pass. Have a look at how P2P works in Indycar. Its strategic and overtakes still mean something, rather than DRS which is basically just a coupon to cash in.

Bold was by accindent... dunno why

[pdac]

The solution is really simple (like all sorts of things) - just ban it suddenly in mid-season. They will all be stuffed and then they will rapidly start to find out how to cope without it. The racing will not be any more lousy than it is already. Just ban it and work through it.

[Clatter]

Fan cars would race well against one another I think.

 

I once proposed another type of DRS system. The Downforce Reduction System. The leading car loses his downforce in the corners but that might be far too gimmicky.

 

And potentially dangerous.

[DoodoolTalla]

The solution is really simple (like all sorts of things) - just ban it suddenly in mid-season. They will all be stuffed and then they will rapidly start to find out how to cope without it. The racing will not be any more lousy than it is already. Just ban it and work through it.

I mean that did kinda happen and it led to the F-duct which got banned and replaced by DRS. 

[genespleen]

Lengthen braking zones and reduce brake-efficiency through banning carbon materials.  Ferrous discs + no DRS.

[Victor]

I do not think there is a genuine will to get rid of automatic overtaking. It is not going to happen soon.

[Imperial]

To answer the OP's question, it's impossible to say yes without a crystal ball, but neither do I understand the logic behind people saying no. It is an ever changing formula, with new rule sets every X years, so the potential will always be there to remove it.

 

I don't think there is anything inherently evil about DRS, this is a contest that relies on machinery after all, but I think the execution of DRS is all wrong. The fact that DRS zones are fixed around the track, and that you have to be within one second of the car in front approaching that zone makes an overtake highly probable and extremely predictable, and ultimately has no thrill attached to it.

 

As with others, I've watched F1 since long before the introduction of DRS. And I remember many of those races as being the most tedious I have ever seen, with next to no overtaking. If we went back to a formula without it we'd be complaining about that next.

 

So, what is the answer if we keep DRS... Make the entire track a DRS zone? Have a minimum of two DRS zones, but have them alternate every lap? Change the time distance that must be achieved before DRS can active, either by increasing or decreasing it? Other?

 

Something is clearly wrong though, as F1 has pretty much acknowledged that the races are often dull, hence why they keep harping on about qualifying races or reverse-grids etc.

 

 

.

Edited by Imperial, 06 November 2020 - 08:37.

[Scotracer]

I just don't understand why we have DRS when hybrid energy is perfect for push-to-pass/defend (much more skillful/strategic for the driver) and would give the manufacturers something to talk about vis vis electric technology.

 

The amount of energy required from the ERS system to replicate what DRS does is not trivial. They currently don't have the capacity.

[HP]

Hope they get rid of DRS sooner than later. The air is getting thin. Meaning, engineers in F1 knowing the ins and out of how to design and setup a car without DRS getting fewer and fewer.

[shure]

They will never get rid of DRS.  They've even introduced it in F2 and F3.  it's no longer just an F1 thing and I can't see the FIA ever relinquishing it now

[Retrofly]

Right now DRS is a necessary evil, the cars are too wide, tracks too narrow and too much dirty air to make overtaking even remotely possible. I think Imola you needed a 2 sec delta even WITH DRS. Which is utterly ridiculous.

 

Until you solve the dirty air problem DRS will remain.

[Celloman]

Hope they get rid of DRS sooner than later. The air is getting thin. Meaning, engineers in F1 knowing the ins and out of how to design and setup a car without DRS getting fewer and fewer.

This is not an issue. They already run majority of the race without DRS in use, if you are Mercedes you basically run 1-2 most of the time, so there won't even be a chance to use DRS.

 

But yeah, there won't be a way to get rid of DRS as far as I can see, even the 2009 cars, which had a much higher mechanical grip to downforce ratio, produced little overtaking.

[FortiFord]

Right now DRS is a necessary evil, the cars are too wide, tracks too narrow and too much dirty air to make overtaking even remotely possible. I think Imola you needed a 2 sec delta even WITH DRS. Which is utterly ridiculous.

 

Until you solve the dirty air problem DRS will remain.

 

makes you wonder why they introduced these wider cars in 2017. 

 

The aerodynamic setup we had in 2011-13 was the best we had in terms of reducing dirty air and facilitating overtaking. It would have been even better without the blown diffusers. 

[rf90]

I wonder what the racing would be like if all cars ran with DRS open all the time? That would increase braking distances and reduce corner speeds so that maybe the driver with more control and finesse has an advantage that he (she) has earnt and deserves. I know some will moan about slower lap times but who cares if the racing is more exciting, if ineed it would be with this idea. Just thinking aloud.

[OO7]

Lengthen braking zones and reduce brake-efficiency through banning carbon materials.  Ferrous discs + no DRS.

Apparently there isn't much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.  Reducing the size of the carbon discs and or pads would probably be more effective.

[RedRabbit]

This is not an issue. They already run majority of the race without DRS in use, if you are Mercedes you basically run 1-2 most of the time, so there won't even be a chance to use DRS.

 

But yeah, there won't be a way to get rid of DRS as far as I can see, even the 2009 cars, which had a much higher mechanical grip to downforce ratio, produced little overtaking.

 

2009 was actually a great balance of being able to defend plus offering a better chance to properly overtake, using the driver adjustable front wing to trim the car's balance corner to corner. There were more than twice as many on track passes in 2009 compared to 2008, and this was when refueling was still a thing.

I wonder if they shouldn't adopt a similar approach to DRS that IndyCar uses with their P2P. Allow a specific number of uses per race, anywhere on track, any time per lap. Set a limit of say 40% of the number of laps, as an arbitrary example. So in a 50 lap race, for instance, the driver can open the DRS 20 times, whenever he likes. 

 

This would make a tool to attack and defend. A driver could also use it while on his own to try close a gap down to a driver in front.

Edited by RedRabbit, 06 November 2020 - 13:44.

[MasterOfCoin]

2009 was actually a great balance of being able to defend plus offering a better chance to properly overtake, using the driver adjustable front wing to trim the car's balance corner to corner. There were more than twice as many on track passes in 2009 compared to 2008, and this was when refueling was still a thing.

I wonder if they shouldn't adopt a similar approach to DRS that IndyCar uses with their P2P. Allow a specific number of uses per race, anywhere on track, any time per lap. Set a limit of say 40% of the number of laps, as an arbitrary example. So in a 50 lap race, for instance, the driver can open the DRS 20 times, whenever he likes. 

 

This would make a tool to attack and defend. A driver could also use it while on his own to try close a gap down to a driver in front.

P2P is a even bigger joke than DRS because it has set limits on usage......It's silly to think at one point slipstreaming used to be a tool to attack another driver, now it's being characterized as disadvantage to a slower driver......Thank god Moto GP and Nascar doesn't have any of those overtaking gimmicks....

[FTB]

I would like to see a race without DRS on some tracks that have long straights, like Monza, to see how would it go. DRS seems necessary in tracks like Hungary or Australia though.

I would also like to see a different type of cars than the current, I would like to see the 2010-2013 ones for example. The current cars are way too wide in my opinion.

Edited by FTB, 06 November 2020 - 19:06.

[Dutchrudder]

I just don't understand why we have DRS when hybrid energy is perfect for push-to-pass/defend (much more skillful/strategic for the driver) and would give the manufacturers something to talk about vis vis electric technology.

Because even with DRS they sometimes can’t pass. Look at the last race. People will complain either way. There’s either too little overtaking or overtaking is too easy. We used to get races where the only overtaking happened in the pits. Don’t forget that.

Would the FIA be able to bring spec wings to the cars? A very simple single plain wing with a basic end plate, front and rear. Very basic adjustability of the angle of the wing, and allow the teams to do what they want with the car in between, give them ground effects. Would that help with the following? I don’t know?

[Pingguest]

As long as Formula One uses high downforce aerodynamics, close racing and overtaking will be hard and hence gimmicks like the drag reduction system (DRS) a necessity. Doing away all downforce might be a step too far, but I think a massive reduction is necessary form a racing point of view. Make the undertray entirely flat from the very front to the very rear - hence: no diffuser, no splitter - and reduce both the rear and front wing to a single element only. This would allow the FIA to open-up the regulations in other areas as well. 

[noikeee]

I just don't understand why we have DRS when hybrid energy is perfect for push-to-pass/defend (much more skillful/strategic for the driver) and would give the manufacturers something to talk about vis vis electric technology.

How do you mandate push-to-pass without spec engines? Are they obliged to store extra power that they then can't use for the whole race? Won't that make it then more advantageous to tune the car for the 99% of the time they won't be on push-to-pass mode, therefore largely ruining the extra boost they'd get?

This also sends a really wasteful message. Let's store energy every lap but throw it away and not use it unless we're overtaking.