954 replies to this topic

[A.Fant]

With how the new cars look on track they should at least revamp the deployment of the DRS zones.

The stated purpose of DRS is to compensate for the dirty air, not to be a tool for overtaking. Drivers have already expressed their preference of it to be tweaked as to not achieve fly-byes (but underlined it is still necessary) but rather moves that occur in the braking zone. While the line jockeying was interesting in Jeddah, I think it will grow thin and feel excessively artificial if it becomes a regular occurance.

My proposal is that DRS zones should only be deployed in zones where overtaking is rare, rather than the longest straights. To give examples of the two most recent races:

In Bahrain the zones on the main straight and down to T4 should be removed while one should be added to the back straight.

In Jeddah the zone on the main straight should be removed.

In each of these cases the following driver can use DRS to close up to the car in front and get into an advantageous position to slipstream going into the main overtaking spots or even go for a move into the final corner, but cannot achieve a flyby and it is unlikely that a driver would prefer DRS over track position at any juncture.

Edited by A.Fant, 28 March 2022 - 11:19.

[Rediscoveryx]

Risil, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:04, said:

My memory of the 2021 race is very confused but wasn't the Verstappen brake test at Jeddah last year to do with jostling for DRS position?

 

Yes

[Ali_G]

Risil, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:04, said:

My memory of the 2021 race is very confused but wasn't the Verstappen brake test at Jeddah last year to do with jostling for DRS position?

It certainly was. He wanted to give the place back just before the DRS line.

I think F1 needs to bite the bullet. Run a few races without DRS and see how it goes. I’d go with a few traditional circuits like Spa and Silverstone which aren’t the hardest to pass.

I think even without DRS, passing will be possible into Les Combes and Stowe.

[thiscocks]

Just bring back the old Hockenheim. No DRS needed. Sorted

[IrvTheSwerve]

Ali_G, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:10, said:

It certainly was. He wanted to give the place back just before the DRS line.

I think F1 needs to bite the bullet. Run a few races without DRS and see how it goes. I’d go with a few traditional circuits like Spa and Silverstone which aren’t the hardest to pass.

I think even without DRS, passing will be possible into Les Combes and Stowe.

I’m a bit surprised that they haven’t floated the idea of banning DRS for a race this year, to see the true effect of the new rules.

[Whitelightning]

Don’t get rid of it just get rid of having multiple drs zones

[Rediscoveryx]

Ali_G, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:10, said:

It certainly was. He wanted to give the place back just before the DRS line.

I think F1 needs to bite the bullet. Run a few races without DRS and see how it goes. I’d go with a few traditional circuits like Spa and Silverstone which aren’t the hardest to pass.

I think even without DRS, passing will be possible into Les Combes and Stowe.

 

I think it can stay at some tracks and go at some tracks. Use it where it's needed and don't use it where overtaking is possible without it. We have a few years of DRS data available from most tracks now so it shouldn't be overly difficult to figure that one out.

 

Also (been mentioned previously); wouldn't it be possible to have a technique that closes the flap once the gap between the cars is less than, say 0.1 seconds? Thereby allowing the attacking driver to draw alongside, but not to cruise past (and not use DRS to edge away)...

[pdac]

IrvTheSwerve, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:15, said:

I’m a bit surprised that they haven’t floated the idea of banning DRS for a race this year, to see the true effect of the new rules.

 

They are all DRS junkies. They are never going to get rid of it.

[ANF]

Can we finally get rid of DRS now? Cars are following closer than ever. There's the overtake button. Drivers can save battery and deploy more power on a straight. Does it have to be so easy to overtake in F1?

[Ali_G]

Whitelightning, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:21, said:

Don’t get rid of it just get rid of having multiple drs zones

If it has to be kept:

- Get rid of DRS zones
- Give each driver a certain amount of time it can be used each race. A minute of usage say.

[azza200]

they won't get rid of it, what they will probably do next is have a gimmick like in Formula E where the fans get to vote if a driver can use it but they call it attack mode & fanboost but it would be expect to see it in F1 soon 

Edited by azza200, 28 March 2022 - 11:35.

[Primo]

Ali_G, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:28, said:

If it has to be kept:

- Get rid of DRS zones
- Give each driver a certain amount of time it can be used each race. A minute of usage say.

Getting rid of the zones would probably encourage drivers to use it in high risk areas if the stakes are high. 

[Sterzo]

Way back in 2018 when these new rules were being prepared, Ross Brawn explained they would see the results of the new rules first, then do away with DRS if they could. I remember being a little disappointed it wouldn't go straight away, but realising it's a sensible way of managing change.

 

To put it in context, he's more recently said the new rules won't necessarily get us to the right place immediately, but might need tweaking.

 

There were many reports at the time (2018). This one clearly says he dislikes DRS and wants it gone.

 

https://www.autospor...288670/5288670/

[Rinehart]

uzsjgb, on 27 Mar 2022 - 18:55, said:

It's exactly the other way around: this race was epic because of DRS.

Without DRS we would have seen a boring procession. Most cars needed the DRS sector 2 to get close enough to pass in DRS sector 3. And even then it was not always possible.

Would football be more entertaining if the goals were made twice as big for free kicks so that there were a lot more goals but half of them were inevitable? A free kick on the edge of the box would become an almost inevitable scoring situation and so there would be a lot more gamesmanship involved in trying to secure a free kick rather than scoring in open play.

I don’t think more, especially inevitable = exciting. Many DRS passes are not so much racing as an arithmetic exercise.

I think that without DRS in SA we’d still have had a great race with some overtaking as the fundamental approach would have been based on that situation.

I also believe that a push to pass/defend/attack system just like they have in INDYCAR is the way to go. That is properly racecraft and hybrid systems are perfect for it.

[PlayboyRacer]

I hate it. Always have. Now we have drivers letting others by in DRS strategy moves. At the very least, it needs to be tweaked. At the very most, can it.

[Tiakumosan]

Seems we have a solution for a problem that is gone or at least it’s different now? So maybe do some races without it, see if the old problem persists or a new one arises, and adapt the number/length of drs accordingly. Just don’t know if it would be fair to do it mid season.

[Sterzo]

Tiakumosan, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:57, said:

Seems we have a solution for a problem that is gone or at least it’s different now? So maybe do some races without it, see if the old problem persists or a new one arises, and adapt the number/length of drs accordingly. Just don’t know if it would be fair to do it mid season.

I think you're right to question changing mid-season. Let's assemble a year's-worth of data from different circuits and different races. Also, let's remember the cars haven't stabilised yet. They're still struggling to set them up, let alone tweak the designs. Neither are the rules necessarily stable; Brawn hinted they'll identify further changes to make. The important thing with rule changes is to get them right, not rush them in.

 

The DRS effect in Saudi Arabia didn't look more extreme than the slipstream effect of cars with no aero downforce. That jostling to be demoted to second would be familiar to Caterham racers everywhere

[Hellenic tifosi]

A.Fant, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:07, said:

With how the new cars look on track they should at least revamp the deployment of the DRS zones.

The stated purpose of DRS is to compensate for the dirty air, not to be a tool for overtaking. Drivers have already expressed their preference of it to be tweaked as to not achieve fly-byes (but underlined it is still necessary) but rather moves that occur in the braking zone. While the line jockeying was interesting in Jeddah, I think it will grow thin and feel excessively artificial if it becomes a regular occurance.

My proposal is that DRS zones should only be deployed in zones where overtaking is rare, rather than the longest straights. To give examples of the two most recent races:

In Bahrain the zones on the main straight and down to T4 should be removed while one should be added to the back straight.

In Jeddah the zone on the main straight should be removed.

In each of these cases the following driver can use DRS to close up to the car in front and get into an advantageous position to slipstream going into the main overtaking spots or even go for a move into the final corner, but cannot achieve a flyby and it is unlikely that a driver would prefer DRS over track position at any juncture.

 

This!

 

My preferable solution would be a set number of activations per driver per race, but if this is not possible, then your solution is excellent.

 

Just use DRS to close gaps, but not facilitate easy drive-by's.

[pizzalover]

Hope not. DRS is a genius idea that's made the racing better and fairer. 

[Jellyfishcake]

pizzalover, on 28 Mar 2022 - 12:36, said:

Hope not. DRS is a genius idea that's made the racing better and fairer. 

 

How would you quantify that?

[ingegnere]

Can someone explain why DRS is used in qualifying when it’s meant to be an overtaking tool?

Makes no sense, is absolutely gimmicky and does not represent a true picture of the relative strengths of the cars in basic race setup.

[Hellenic tifosi]

ingegnere, on 28 Mar 2022 - 13:02, said:

Can someone explain why DRS is used in qualifying when it’s meant to be an overtaking tool?

Makes no sense, is absolutely gimmicky and does not represent a true picture of the relative strengths of the cars in basic race setup.

Makes absolutely zero sense. I think it's only used to improve qualifying times and make F1 appear faster than it actually is.

Edited by Hellenic tifosi, 28 March 2022 - 14:23.

[Clatter]

ingegnere, on 28 Mar 2022 - 13:02, said:

Can someone explain why DRS is used in qualifying when it’s meant to be an overtaking tool?

Makes no sense, is absolutely gimmicky and does not represent a true picture of the relative strengths of the cars in basic race setup.

Because it makes the sport seem faster to the wider audience, despite them never getting close to the same lap times in the race.

Edited by Clatter, 28 March 2022 - 13:18.

[SCUDmissile]

Now that new rules make it easier for following, DRS does need adjusting.

It's good drivers are being tactical with their racing but you can't really be having people just waiting for the last drs zone to overtake.

They said depending on how the cars work they will adjust and I'm sure they will sort something.

[dia6olo]

Seanspeed, on 28 Mar 2022 - 08:55, said:

And I sadly have little hope of any decent balancing.  For years, we've gone beyond what is reasonable to address the problem, just adding more and more DRS zones to everything, and with them very rarely maybe shortening certain sections, and usually not by a ton.  It's needed balancing for a while now and they just dont seem to care. 

 

Maybe yea, they'll look at it for next year to curb bits here and there, but I'm not expecting them to rigorously look at it and make any of the larger cuts needed.  I'd bet they'll get pushback from the track organizers themselves, as they dont want to be known as one of the 'bad' tracks that doesn't have good racing. 

They don't care because it's entertaining, it's the same with the safety cars which often play a big part on race results.

It seems that entertainment is far more important than fair results, it shouldn't be and needs addressing because some of these implementations often makes a mockery of many race results.

[Rediscoveryx]

dia6olo, on 28 Mar 2022 - 13:27, said:

They don't care because it's entertaining, it's the same with the safety cars which often play a big part on race results.

It seems that entertainment is far more important than fair results, it shouldn't be and needs addressing because some of these implementations often makes a mockery of many race results.

 

Playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't say that DRS is necessarily unfair in the same way as safety cars are.

 

It's just that it feels artificial, and when it's too effective it actually robs us of battles that we would have seen if it hadn't been there (or hadn't been as effective).

[Venom]

I don’t think outright removal is going to happen. At some tracks it’s still necessary. Like the next race in Melbourne I suspect. And while it’s not the most elegant thing ever introduced to racing I’d rather have it than not at the Budapest’s and Singapore’s of the world.

I think a good start to fine tuning it is to take away the back to back DRS zones. The game of chicken at the DRS line in these scenarios is visually ridiculous as well as unsafe.

I’m not really a fan of the ‘give each driver xx seconds of DRS per race’. I just see that creating situations where races for the lead are killed in the closing stages when the leader has been able to save DRS usage during the race over a driver who has had to come through the field.

I think categorising circuits in to something like ‘high chance, medium chance and low chance overtaking track’ could work. It’s just the same as what is done with bringing different compounds of tyre to each race based on track wear rates. And adjust the maximum lengths of DRS zones based on that by forcing it to close earlier at the end of straights in the high chance overtaking circuits. Or even adjusting the amount the slot gap can open.

[IrvTheSwerve]

There should be the option to increase or decrease the slot gap during the weekend if it looks to be too powerful or not powerful enough. 

 

You could even limit the drivers to X amount of 'full slot opening' and Y amount of 'half open'...although that is getting more gimmicky.

[Ali_G]

pizzalover, on 28 Mar 2022 - 12:36, said:

Hope not. DRS is a genius idea that's made the racing better and fairer.

Lol. Mario Kart fan?

[IrvTheSwerve]

Rediscoveryx, on 28 Mar 2022 - 13:50, said:

 

Playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't say that DRS is necessarily unfair in the same way as safety cars are.

 

It's just that it feels artificial, and when it's too effective it actually robs us of battles that we would have seen if it hadn't been there (or hadn't been as effective).

 

Unfortunately amount of overtakes = entertainment in the eyes of Liberty and many/most newer fans.

 

Seeing two cars follow closely for 10+ laps is seen as boring now. As you say, DRS robs us of these kinds of battle as if a driver has any hint of a pace advantage over the driver infront, it's usually an easy DRS pass and the car that has overtaken scampers off in to the distance.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Maybe they could program the DRS to deactivate when the overtaking car gets alongside another car? There's no need to have DRS for the whole straight if the overtake has been completed at the start of the straight...

[Deeq]

Risil, on 28 Mar 2022 - 11:04, said:

My memory of the 2021 race is very confused but wasn't the Verstappen brake test at Jeddah last year to do with jostling for DRS position?

Yes.

[Rediscoveryx]

IrvTheSwerve, on 28 Mar 2022 - 15:24, said:

Maybe they could program the DRS to deactivate when the overtaking car gets alongside another car? There's no need to have DRS for the whole straight if the overtake has been completed at the start of the straight...

Yep, that’s a suggestion I’ve thought about as well.

[Clatter]

IrvTheSwerve, on 28 Mar 2022 - 15:18, said:

There should be the option to increase or decrease the slot gap during the weekend if it looks to be too powerful or not powerful enough.

You could even limit the drivers to X amount of 'full slot opening' and Y amount of 'half open'...although that is getting more gimmicky.

How would you make that determination? They don't use for overtaking until the race, and it's effect is greatly influenced by the car setups. We saw yesterday that the RB was setup more for straight line speed, and the DRS was very effective, Ferrari was setup more for the twisty bits, and the DRS was less effective.

[Shade]

Honestly it's absurd to have 2 back-to-back DRS zones on straights like in Jeddah or Brazil.

Edited by Shade, 28 March 2022 - 16:08.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Clatter, on 28 Mar 2022 - 08:40, said:

As we are stuck with DRS I'd prefer to see it used as a tactical tool. Give them a set amount of time that they can use the DRS for during the race, and leave it up to the driver when he uses it. Use it all up to early and you could be left vulnerable.

That's how push to pass works in Indycar, and unfortunately it doesn't work that well.  The defending driver can use push to pass for a lot less time than the attacker to keep his place, so it's almost a more powerful defensive weapon than an attacking weapon.

[DrF]

dia6olo, on 28 Mar 2022 - 13:27, said:

They don't care because it's entertaining, it's the same with the safety cars which often play a big part on race results.
It seems that entertainment is far more important than fair results, it shouldn't be and needs addressing because some of these implementations often makes a mockery of many race results.

Is it entertaining to see a helpless car being overtaken effortlessly?

It wasn't entertaining to see a faster car held up by a slower one lap after lap, but if that's been addressed and we're having the activation zone shenanigans race after race, then either give drivers a limited amount of DRS activation time per lap/race or let them all use it all the time or deactivate it.

I personally think it'd be worth seeing what happens if all drivers could use it all the time during the race. It'd neutralise the advantage, but could skillful use help with the show?

[pizzalover]

Ali_G, on 28 Mar 2022 - 15:19, said:

Lol. Mario Kart fan?

Lol! Trulli train fan. 

[Dmitriy_Guller]

It's not entertaining to watch a faster car be hopelessly stuck behind a slower car, with everyone knowing that there is nothing a driver behind can do.  It's not enough for cars to be able to follow, the difference in performance needed to complete a pass is too great these days, given how close the cars are on performance.  The laws of physics necessitate the existence of DRS, it has nothing to do with Liberty.  The only thing that can make DRS unnecessary is the barn-door levels of slipstreaming effect, and mandating that is artificial enough on its own.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 28 March 2022 - 16:15.

[ColeTrickle44]

Get rid. Give the drivers x minutes or seconds of extra power they can use during the race and let them use it whenever they want. I’d say about 240 secs for a race should be enough..

Batteries have road relevance.. DRS not so much.

And would get rid of these DRS trains

[Gravelngrass]

The leader of the championship just stated that without DRS races would be boring. Unfortunately that’s already a weighty voice in support of keeping it. Yes, it seems the new regs have improved the racing, but they should only be seen as the first step. Lighter cars and free use of compounds should follow quickly, among many other things. Verstappen said he had to wait to use the hards to be able to attack as the mediums would destroy when following closely. Why is it that he’s forced to use the anti-racing compound then? Wouldn’t it be better for racing if they could choose the best tyre for it? This sounds so obvious yet it has to be pointed out in an era where rules are ridiculous because they have been mainly used as quick-fixes.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Clatter, on 28 Mar 2022 - 16:08, said:

How would you make that determination? They don't use for overtaking until the race, and it's effect is greatly influenced by the car setups. We saw yesterday that the RB was setup more for straight line speed, and the DRS was very effective, Ferrari was setup more for the twisty bits, and the DRS was less effective.

It would be difficult. I just feel that there’s quite a lot of inflexibility with DRS and the zones that are allocated.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Dmitriy_Guller, on 28 Mar 2022 - 16:14, said:

It's not entertaining to watch a faster car be hopelessly stuck behind a slower car, with everyone knowing that there is nothing a driver behind can do.  It's not enough for cars to be able to follow, the difference in performance needed to complete a pass is too great these days, given how close the cars are on performance.  The laws of physics necessitate the existence of DRS, it has nothing to do with Liberty.  The only thing that can make DRS unnecessary is the barn-door levels of slipstreaming effect, and mandating that is artificial enough on its own.

It’s a skill to keep a faster car behind…and that has been lost now, somewhat. Faster cars are guaranteed to pass.

[ARTGP]

Charles Leclerc says racing would be boring without DRS.

 

F1 2022 races would be "very boring" without DRS, says Leclerc. (motorsport.com)

Edited by ARTGP, 28 March 2022 - 18:17.

[azza200]

He would say that as most younger generation drivers in F1 now probably couldn't handle having to fight for 5-10 laps to finally overtake somebody requires skill and patience. With DRS they have easy passes now. Likewise if he was defending his position for those 5-10 laps requires skill to handle that pressure from behind from a faster driver/car 

Edited by azza200, 28 March 2022 - 20:57.

[TomNokoe]

Without DRS there would've been very little overtaking yesterday. The new regs aren't that good.

Edit: yes I agree with Leclerc

Edited by TomNokoe, 28 March 2022 - 21:02.

[Sterzo]

ARTGP, on 28 Mar 2022 - 18:16, said:

Charles Leclerc says racing would be boring without DRS.

 

F1 2022 races would be "very boring" without DRS, says Leclerc. (motorsport.com)

If I may split a hair, he says “I think DRS needs to stay for now, otherwise the races would be very boring,” he said. “As much as following has been better from last year to this year, and it's a very positive step, I still think it's not enough to get rid of the DRS." Verstappen echoes the sentiment - that it can't go yet. Neither is saying it should stay for ever. The whole idea behind the rule changes is to make a big improvement (which they seem to have done, on evidence so far). But there'll need to be further tweaks; then and only then should DRS go.

 

Some other posts in the thread totally ignore Brawn's past utterances. He made it clear years ago it would take time, but he wanted ultimately to make DRS unnecessary.

Edited by Sterzo, 28 March 2022 - 21:03.

[Hellenic tifosi]

In Bahrain I would remove the DRS zone at the main straight, but I would add a small zone at the one before.

 

In Jeddah, my ideal solution would be to destroy the track entirely  and never see a race there again. In terms of DRS, I would keep the two consecutive zones, but I would remove the one in the main straight.

 

In other circuits, as an example:

 

At Spa, I would keep the S/F zone to allow cars to get close at La Source, but no need for a flyby zone after Eau Rouge. At Monza, we could have a zone after Ascari, but no DRS at the Retifilio straight. 

[dia6olo]

While some are arguing the case for getting rid of it I'm not one and many here are not either.

I along with many others understand why it's there and that it's not just for entertainment, it does serve a purpose. However, my argument and I suspect many others feel the same is that it is no longer serving that purpose and only serving entertainment, or rather the balance between serving a "purpose" and serving entertainment is now massively out of wack.

[Celloman]

Sterzo, on 28 Mar 2022 - 21:02, said:

If I may split a hair, he says “I think DRS needs to stay for now, otherwise the races would be very boring,” he said. “As much as following has been better from last year to this year, and it's a very positive step, I still think it's not enough to get rid of the DRS." Verstappen echoes the sentiment - that it can't go yet. Neither is saying it should stay for ever. The whole idea behind the rule changes is to make a big improvement (which they seem to have done, on evidence so far). But there'll need to be further tweaks; then and only then should DRS go.

 

Some other posts in the thread totally ignore Brawn's past utterances. He made it clear years ago it would take time, but he wanted ultimately to make DRS unnecessary.

Unless they change the regulations again, which they won't do in the next couple of years, I don't see how overtaking would get any easier than right now. If anything, cars are likely to get *slightly* harder to follow than now due to teams finding ways to get around the regulations and adding more aero sensitive parts.
 

Edited by Celloman, 28 March 2022 - 22:38.