65 replies to this topic

[cpbell]

Discussion on the Racing Comments board (I know... ) on the place of Lewis Hamilton in the annals of the Greats led me to mention that Fangio is still my personal, subjective, biased Greatest of All Time.  I mentioned that early influences from the likes of DCN and Alan Henry made some of his achievements seem almost mythical and fired my imagination at a point in my life when I was open to being easily impressed by such figures.  I explained that I couldn't fail to be stirred by descriptions of Balcarce citizens listening to broadcasts from the great road races of the 1940s with their man taking on Galvez, Marimon et al, in tests of supreme driving skill and endurance at which point a member made the comment that he considered accounts of Fangio's exploits were exaggerated, thereby causing people to overestimate his achievements and ability.  This seemed plausible, though I doubt that the authoritative authors I read way back when were inaccurate, but the reply from another member that Fangio was probably responsible for any exaggeration caused me some degree of irritation.  From recollection, I cannot say I've ever heard of him being a self-promoter - indeed, Sir Stirling reckoned that what marked Fangio out was that he was a modest man unlike himself (not that I agree regarding Sir Stirling's assessment of his own character).

 

Do the esteemed members of TNF agree, or am I guilty of failing to recognise a significant character flaw?

 

[Doug Nye]

Rest assured that you are spot on.

 

Also rest assured that the primitive part of me would like the name and address of the blasphemer...   

 

DCN

[cpbell]

Rest assured that you are spot on.

 

Also rest assured that the primitive part of me would like the name and address of the blasphemer...   

 

DCN

You've made a happy man very old!

[Collombin]

You've made a happy man very old!

As the presumed irritator in chief, I merely wish to bring to your attention that some of the great man's accounts of certain incidents have been questioned by some - eg I know from an earlier post of yours that you own a copy of Mon Ami Mate. Do you fully go along with Fangio's comments regarding Monaco 1956?

I have also heard that Fangio's account of the Monza 1953 finale did not completely tally with the photographic evidence (although I have not seen this myself admittedly).

At Monaco in 1950 a huge pileup was potentially prevented from being a calamity by the leaders being flagged down by a man in the middle of the track waving a large flag. Fangio doesn't mention this at all, crediting instead his perception of a change in the appearance of the spectators' heads - a far more impressive explanation!

There was no intent to cause any irritation on your part, Fangio's reputation as both driver and man is of course in the stratosphere, and justifiably so. But I do think he was, on the odd occasion, therefore not quite as modest as is sometimes portrayed. Nothing wrong with that. After all, to paraphrase another great man, he had very little to be modest about.

[Tim Murray]

Here’s an earlier discussion of the Monaco accident:

1950 Monaco start accident

[absinthedude]

I am far too young to have been around when Fangio raced....but I doubt the good people of Argentina would have written and recorded a song about him before he even went to Europe if he wasn't considered something special. 

 

I am plenty old enough to have seen interviews with the man himself and with those who worked with him or saw him drive....and every single one of them seems to have seen something very special in the way Fangio drove including a certain Stirling Moss. 

 

Of course it *could* have been an act, but Fangio came across as genuine and even humble. Not the type to hype himself up. He wasn't a Farina or even a Moss. 

[Michael Ferner]

For reasons not at once evident to a person accustomed to 21st century behaviour, modesty was once a human quality that was much liked, and even expected in public figures who were perceived to be lucky enough to engage in activities that brought them to the attention of large audiences - artists and sports persons, most definitely. As so often, reasons for compliance with those "ethical standards" were mostly of economical nature, and thus a prime motivating factor - after all, he who pays the bills (or tickets, as in these cases), can expect to be pleased, even wooed to some extent. However, many of the public images of that time did not quite, in fact, live up to the realities of life in competitive surroundings. I consider Fangio a victim of his times - were he to have been a rapper in the noughties, he needn't appear to be modest when he was clearly not.

[cpbell]

As the presumed irritator in chief, I merely wish to bring to your attention that some of the great man's accounts of certain incidents have been questioned by some - eg I know from an earlier post of yours that you own a copy of Mon Ami Mate. Do you fully go along with Fangio's comments regarding Monaco 1956?

I have also heard that Fangio's account of the Monza 1953 finale did not completely tally with the photographic evidence (although I have not seen this myself admittedly).

At Monaco in 1950 a huge pileup was potentially prevented from being a calamity by the leaders being flagged down by a man in the middle of the track waving a large flag. Fangio doesn't mention this at all, crediting instead his perception of a change in the appearance of the spectators' heads - a far more impressive explanation!

There was no intent to cause any irritation on your part, Fangio's reputation as both driver and man is of course in the stratosphere, and justifiably so. But I do think he was, on the odd occasion, therefore not quite as modest as is sometimes portrayed. Nothing wrong with that. After all, to paraphrase another great man, he had very little to be modest about.

Thanks for posting here - your thoughts are much less irritating than I presumed at first.  I haven't read Mon Ami... in years, so I'd need to do so before commenting on any difference between Fangio's account and others.

Edited by cpbell, 23 November 2020 - 09:57.

[cpbell]

Here’s an earlier discussion of the Monaco accident:

1950 Monaco start accident

Sadly, it doesn't appear to determine who, if anyone, was wavng flags and whether Fangio was warned of something by flags but determined the location of the crash by the means often described.

[Collombin]

Thanks for posting here - your thoughts are much less irritating than I presumed at first. I haven't read Mon Ami... in years, so I'd need to do so before commenting on any difference between Fangio's account and others.

No worries - I'm the same whenever I read a perceived slight about Moss!

I think enough of Fangio's modesty and sportsmanship to believe, all things considered, that he did indeed subtly and deliberately let teammates win their home races on occasion. And by the standards of today, of course he was a modest man - certainly far removed from the cocky/arrogant end of the spectrum, just maybe 90% modest instead of 100%! My original comment about most of the embellishment of Fangio stories coming from Fangio himself was based on the examples above combined with the fact I have never really heard anyone else feel the need to embellish a Fangio tale - the simple truth is usually sufficient to impress.

[Doug Nye]

I certainly don't want to labour the point but I had the privilege of working with Fangio on the Pirelli/Moss book.  He was 90 per cent as I expected - friendly, gentle, modest, humble, unassuming, to a fault...likable, admirable.

 

But the more we talked the more I realised that here was an engaging competitor with an armour-hard core of the most resilient spring steel.  

 

When he wanted, he had plainly never left a stone unturned to engineer himself a place in the best team, with the best equipment.  But he genuinely let his quality on track do the talking for him.

 

As another seasoned observer suggested, when one got past the gentle exterior here was someone who would be a wonderfully fine and friendly neighbouring passenger on an airline flight, but if the plane slid off the runway and caught fire you could probably expect that you would be the very first person he'd tread on to get out...  

 

In my experience he was not manipulative nor fanciful in the way he described past events - he gave a simple and I believed honest account of what he recalled seeing or experiencing from his view - or vantage point - at the time.  

 

All racing drivers have selective memory - some of the greats immensely more selective than others.  In my experience Fangio absolutely did not fall into that group.  Some of his recollections were plainly skewed or inaccurate, but not due to any lack of instinctive humility, nor truthfulness, he just believed what he was saying to be correct.  And when he walked into a room, without having to say a single word, he simply radiated matchless Presence. 

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

What I saw him do over twenty years after he retired was enough to convince me of his skills...

 

And Brabham on that day said, "It gives you heart to see him drive like that at his age!"

[2F-001]

 

When he wanted, he had plainly never left a stone unturned to engineer himself a place in the best team, with the best equipment. 

I think that is the only kind of "self promotion" I've heard attributed to him.

 

As for trampling on you to get out of an endangered aircraft... well, that's either entirely natural or plain survival instinct or a manifestation of innate competitive nature!

Who knows what any one of us might do in a similar situation - notwithstanding our demeanour in everyday circumstances...

[cpbell]

Having just checked in "My Racing Life", his volume with a journalist, his account of Monaco 1950 is that, on exiting the Chicane, he noticed a stationary yellow flag almost at the same moment as he realised that spectators weren't turned to see his approach.  This says to me that there's no significant discrepancy between his account and others regarding the part a marshal had in his ability to stop before the crash site.

Edited by cpbell, 23 November 2020 - 11:15.

[ensign14]

On the Monaco point, Fangio was able to get past the pile-up with ease, but everyone following him ended up in a traffic jam unable to get past...that suggests a greater degree of foresight of just how tricky it was going to be than those behind him.

[Roger Clark]

Doug's post describes Fangio exactly as I want to imagine him.

[absinthedude]

Indeed many thanks, DCN.

 

Regarding Monaco, I've read several accounts, having spent the 80s swotting up on motor racing history, and have videos of Fangio giving interviews...of course translated....but he was consistent throughout. He saw one yellow flag but it was the fact that the spectators were all turned away which made him suspect something had happened.....on several occasions he mentions wondering "what could be more important than the race leader?" and he concluded there must have been something which grabbed their attention such as a big accident. 

 

I'd have trouble telling you accurately everything I saw on my walk in the park yesterday and I took photos....I think we can forgive people the odd discrepancy in eyewitness accounts decades after the event. 

 

One account of Fangio's abilities behind the wheel I recall vividly.....and I am not totally sure but I think it may have been Stirling Moss who gave this account.....was that Ascari would take a corner at Silverstone such that the slipstream from his car would disturb the stalks protruding from the hay bales which lined the corner....and he'd do this lap after lap....whereas Fangio's wheel would actually brush against those stalks, lap after lap. Both were as consistent but Fangio was just that tiny bit faster, that tiny bit closer to the edge.

[cpbell]

Indeed many thanks, DCN.

 

Regarding Monaco, I've read several accounts, having spent the 80s swotting up on motor racing history, and have videos of Fangio giving interviews...of course translated....but he was consistent throughout. He saw one yellow flag but it was the fact that the spectators were all turned away which made him suspect something had happened.....on several occasions he mentions wondering "what could be more important than the race leader?" and he concluded there must have been something which grabbed their attention such as a big accident. 

 

I'd have trouble telling you accurately everything I saw on my walk in the park yesterday and I took photos....I think we can forgive people the odd discrepancy in eyewitness accounts decades after the event. 

 

One account of Fangio's abilities behind the wheel I recall vividly.....and I am not totally sure but I think it may have been Stirling Moss who gave this account.....was that Ascari would take a corner at Silverstone such that the slipstream from his car would disturb the stalks protruding from the hay bales which lined the corner....and he'd do this lap after lap....whereas Fangio's wheel would actually brush against those stalks, lap after lap. Both were as consistent but Fangio was just that tiny bit faster, that tiny bit closer to the edge.

+100. 

[Vitesse2]

Had it not been for that unpleasantness in Europe and elsewhere between 1939 and 1945, I'm sure El Chueco would have been a significant presence on the world stage much earlier. He was, after all, the Argentinian Turismo Carretera champion in both 1940 and 1941, won the two-week Gran Premio Internacional del Norte road race (Buenos Aires-La Paz-Lima-La Paz-Buenos Aires!) in 1940 and the nine-day, 3730km, Prova Presidente Getúlio Vargas in Brazil the following year. In that race his time over the timed stages on a route which went from Rio de Janeiro inland to Goiania, on to São Paulo and back along the coast to Rio de Janeiro was just over 43 hours - he finished 40 minutes ahead of Oscar Gálvez and four hours ahead of the third place man, Júlio Vieira! He also won one of the two TC races held in 1942 before the season was abandoned.

 

By the end of the 1930s both the Brazilians and Argentinians (and indeed the Venezuelans) seem to have had ambitions to attract the European teams to race there in the European winter and there were certainly at least two Formule Libre races planned in Brazil for late 1939, with participation promised from Europe and Argentina - and possibly the United States. Had that gone well, the Argentinians would surely have stepped up to the mark as well ...

[Lee Nicolle]

What I saw him do over twenty years after he retired was enough to convince me of his skills...

 

And Brabham on that day said, "It gives you heart to see him drive like that at his age!"

The only time I ever saw him drive was in the Mercedes at Sandown. On a stinking hot day.

Which ofcourse was a demonstration. But still made you realise he was  very special. As was the car.

Dougs comment about being in the best car and team has described most F1 champs. Sometimes luck, eg Jensens title in the Brawn. But generally good driver good car is a recipe for success

The comment on the weather that Sandown day was Alan Jones in Hamiltons Porsche with no door. 

[BRG]

All racing drivers have selective memory

Not just racing drivers - everybody is prone to this.  there have been several occasions on this forum when I found that something I KNEW to be a fact from my own memory of having been there was anything but. For instance, I was convinced for decades that Ronnie Peterson's March 701 that I saw at Monaco 1970 was largely brown in colour.  It wasn't, as I discovered hereabouts. 

 

If you are Fangio, it must be quite hard to represent your exploits as even more glorious than they were!!

[cpbell]

Had it not been for that unpleasantness in Europe and elsewhere between 1939 and 1945, I'm sure El Chueco would have been a significant presence on the world stage much earlier. He was, after all, the Argentinian Turismo Carretera champion in both 1940 and 1941, won the two-week Gran Premio Internacional del Norte road race (Buenos Aires-La Paz-Lima-La Paz-Buenos Aires!) in 1940 and the nine-day, 3730km, Prova Presidente Getúlio Vargas in Brazil the following year. In that race his time over the timed stages on a route which went from Rio de Janeiro inland to Goiania, on to São Paulo and back along the coast to Rio de Janeiro was just over 43 hours - he finished 40 minutes ahead of Oscar Gálvez and four hours ahead of the third place man, Júlio Vieira! He also won one of the two TC races held in 1942 before the season was abandoned.

 

By the end of the 1930s both the Brazilians and Argentinians (and indeed the Venezuelans) seem to have had ambitions to attract the European teams to race there in the European winter and there were certainly at least two Formule Libre races planned in Brazil for late 1939, with participation promised from Europe and Argentina - and possibly the United States. Had that gone well, the Argentinians would surely have stepped up to the mark as well ...

I've run out of likes for today, but that would definitely have been one!

[68targa]

I have never doubted the accounts of Fangio at Monaco noticing the crowd looking the 'wrong'  way.  To someone of his ability it would be a natural reaction to feel something was not quite right.    Strling Moss always managed to notice some 'crumpet' among the crowd during a race and I am sure many others could pick out such details especially if they were unexpected  - not always 'crumpet' but umbrellas going up approaching a distant corner for example.

[Claudio Navonne]

Fangio retired when I was less than 2 years old. Therefore, all I know about his period of glory is what my late father told me, what I read in books and magazines, contemporary or not at that time, and what I saw on the internet in the last few years.

But in 1973, when I was 17 years old, a festival of Argentinean single-seaters was organized at the Autodrmo in the city of Buenos Aires. There were Argentinean F1, F2 and F4 races. Reutemann was even present to make a demonstration or exhibition with the Brabham BT36 that he used to be runner-up of the European F2 championship.

In the middle of this festival, FIAT Argentina, by way of presentation of its 125 model saloon car, organized an "exhibition" race with these cars driven by the old glory of Argentine sports car racing. Among others there were Pedrazzani, Pián and the greatest rivals of all times Oscar Gálvez and his archrival on the Fangio tracks. Although it is necessary to clarify that in the life always they were great friends. Before the start (there was no qualification, only a draw) Gálvez (who never wanted to lose anything) told Fangio that it was only going to be an exhibition and he didn't intend to run fast. Then Fangio told the late Luis DiPalma (Argentinean F1 driver and idol of the fans) if he wanted to go in the passenger seat, no matter what, being an exhibition the extra weight was not important. Gálvez started like a real race, at full speed, and Fangio came in last and with a weight handicap, with absolutely standard and equal cars. He finished second, losing by half a car to Galvez, and Luis Di Palma, the passenger said he had never seen anyone drive like Fangio did that day.

I leave you some slides that I took that day .

All singleseaters in ehibition . Reutemann standing behind the BT36 on the left.

The FIAT 125 starting

 

Race podium.
1-Oscar Gálvez
2-Juan Manuel Fangio
3-Ernesto Petrini

Fangio and Gálvez in an embrace

[cpbell]

Fangio retired when I was less than 2 years old. Therefore, all I know about his period of glory is what my late father told me, what I read in books and magazines, contemporary or not at that time, and what I saw on the internet in the last few years.

But in 1973, when I was 17 years old, a festival of Argentinean single-seaters was organized at the Autodrmo in the city of Buenos Aires. There were Argentinean F1, F2 and F4 races. Reutemann was even present to make a demonstration or exhibition with the Brabham BT36 that he used to be runner-up of the European F2 championship.

In the middle of this festival, FIAT Argentina, by way of presentation of its 125 model saloon car, organized an "exhibition" race with these cars driven by the old glory of Argentine sports car racing. Among others there were Pedrazzani, Pián and the greatest rivals of all times Oscar Gálvez and his archrival on the Fangio tracks. Although it is necessary to clarify that in the life always they were great friends. Before the start (there was no qualification, only a draw) Gálvez (who never wanted to lose anything) told Fangio that it was only going to be an exhibition and he didn't intend to run fast. Then Fangio told the late Luis DiPalma (Argentinean F1 driver and idol of the fans) if he wanted to go in the passenger seat, no matter what, being an exhibition the extra weight was not important. Gálvez started like a real race, at full speed, and Fangio came in last and with a weight handicap, with absolutely standard and equal cars. He finished second, losing by half a car to Galvez, and Luis Di Palma, the passenger said he had never seen anyone drive like Fangio did that day.

I leave you some slides that I took that day .

All singleseaters in ehibition . Reutemann standing behind the BT36 on the left.

The FIAT 125 starting

 

Race podium.
1-Oscar Gálvez
2-Juan Manuel Fangio
3-Ernesto Petrini

Fangio and Gálvez in an embrace

Wonderful stuff!

[Michael Ferner]

 

 

I don't even doubt that Fangio noticed some strange behaviour in the crowd, it's just that it had nought to do with him pulling up before the accident scene. Making up a story like that, and most accounts (like the one related to DSJ) don't even mention the yellow flag, is what I would call "self promotion", which is supposed to be the subject of this thread. In no way am I trying to say that Fangio was a lesser driver, thus - he remains, at the very least, one of the very best, maybe even the best racing driver this world has ever seen. But modest, he was not.

[ReWind]

... a significant character flaw?

 

Does not marrying either mother of his children and not officially recognizing his two sons (Óscar Espinosa & Rubén Vázquez) count?

[cpbell]

 

 

I don't even doubt that Fangio noticed some strange behaviour in the crowd, it's just that it had nought to do with him pulling up before the accident scene. Making up a story like that, and most accounts (like the one related to DSJ) don't even mention the yellow flag, is what I would call "self promotion", which is supposed to be the subject of this thread. In no way am I trying to say that Fangio was a lesser driver, thus - he remains, at the very least, one of the very best, maybe even the best racing driver this world has ever seen. But modest, he was not.

Thanks for the photo.  I'm afraid, though, I don't get what you're saying here.  Earlier today, I posted that Fangio's account of the incident in "My Racing Life" (my copy of which sits on my desk as I type, having checked it this morning) states that he saw the flag in the distance as he exited the Chicane, and, almost instantaneously, he realised that the spectators weren't facing him, which told him that the incident was  on the exit of the Tabac corner.  I don't really care that he didn't mention the flag to DSJ, as I'd challenge you to explain an event in your life repeatedly over the course of several decades, including straight after a race, and to always give precisely the same account each time.  I read, in black type on white paper in "My Racing Life" a quote from Fangio to the journalist who actually wrote the thing in which he clearly mentions seeing the flag and then noticing that the crowd was focused on something else rather than his approach.

[cpbell]

Does not marrying either mother of his children and not officially recognizing his two sons (Óscar Espinosa & Rubén Vázquez) count?

Not uncommon amonst Latino men of his generation.  Doesn't make it correct by modern standards, but he was hardly alone in that - Enzo Ferrari did much the same.

[ensign14]

I'm not convinced that picture has not been touched up a little...chap with the flag looks to be about ten foot tall.

[Michael Ferner]

What I'm saying is: in most accounts he makes a big deal about the spectators looking the other way, while either not mentioning the flag at all or just as something which isn't really important (... stationary... in the distance...), but this picture clearly shows that it is exactly the other way round: whether he noticed the spectators turning their heads has absolutely no bearing on what happens, as the man waving the flag is standing in the middle of the road, impossible to miss, and thus the only relevant reason why he managed to pull up. Nothing to do with his memory, just the way he tells the story. To me there's a significant discrepancy between his account and the photographic evidence regarding the part a marshal had in his ability to stop before the crash site.

[Michael Ferner]

I'm not convinced that picture has not been touched up a little...chap with the flag looks to be about ten foot tall.

 

 

Yeah, and the guy with the cap in the foreground has hands as big as a maribou C'mon, missed school when perspective was on the schedule?

[Doug Nye]

But Michael - Fangio didn't make "a big deal" out of his Monaco 1950 story.  Such was his speed of perception and processing that he probably noticed something unusual ahead when his Alfetta was way back up the quay, closer to the chicane than the following car in that great (if indeed un-retouched) cover photo.  Having seen a few retouched cover pix in my time I must say I find the composition-enhancing positioning of the figures in that photo somewhat suspicious...  In those pre-Photoshop days contemporary graphics guys were already startlingly adept at physical cut-and-paste, wash-over, repaint and touch-up...  Many issues of the 1950s British magazine 'Picture Post' demonstrated exactly that.

 

DCN

[ensign14]

Yeah, and the guy with the cap in the foreground has hands as big as a maribou C'mon, missed school when perspective was on the schedule?

Look where the shadows are...

[jeffbee]

Fangio didn't get behind the wheel of an F1 car until he was 36.  Just to put that into perspective, it's older than the current F1 world champion.  I'm aware that we shouldn't get too wrapped up with "what ifs", but had he come to Europe some years earlier I think it's true to say his record would have been incredible.  To win a single world championship in the 1950s was exceptional, but to win 5?  

[cpbell]

What I'm saying is: in most accounts he makes a big deal about the spectators looking the other way, while either not mentioning the flag at all or just as something which isn't really important (... stationary... in the distance...), but this picture clearly shows that it is exactly the other way round: whether he noticed the spectators turning their heads has absolutely no bearing on what happens, as the man waving the flag is standing in the middle of the road, impossible to miss, and thus the only relevant reason why he managed to pull up. Nothing to do with his memory, just the way he tells the story. To me there's a significant discrepancy between his account and the photographic evidence regarding the part a marshal had in his ability to stop before the crash site.

Couldn't the marshal have held the flag still until Fangio neared, then started waving it before the photo was taken?  I'm afraid I cannot agree with your thesis here - you're making statements of fact based on surmise and opinion.  You also seem to have re-imagined (or distrust my account of) what Fangio said to Carozzo, his biographer - he says that he saw the flag initially, then noted the inattention of the spectators.  I infer from this that the flag told him that something was wrong, the spectators told him it was something obscured behind the wall, after the apex at Tabac, and the recollection of the photo from 1936 put into his thoughts the idea that the track might be blocked.  Thus, even if he invented the spectator part, he still noticed enough to make him approach the corner slowly.  Had he never mentioned a flag, or denied that there was one being shown, then I would agree that his account would be disproven, but that isn't the case.

[absinthedude]

Fangio not acknowledging his offspring would, sadly, be normal for a man of his background....having a child out of wedlock would have brought shame to his family name. Utterly stupid in my book, but not Fangio's fault.

 

I can well imagine Moss spotting a bit of crumpet in the crowd as he whizzed past. A man after my own heart in that regard. 

[LittleChris]

At 38 seconds the marshall ( I presume ) standing at the entrance to Tabac  looks very like the man in Michaels picture.

 

Going back to 30 seconds he seems to be waving something, presumably a flag though is partly hidden by the balustrade.

 

Subsequently we see ( I think ) Chiron & Sommer working through the crashed cars but it's not clear if this was at the time of the accident or a later lap ( I understand it took some time to clear the cars ) but if it was the lap of the accident then Fangio would've been on his next lap and the marshall already had his flag out in advance of Fangio reaching Tabac again. Hope that makes sense ! 

 

1950 Formula 1 Monaco Grand Prix Highlights (Colorized and AI-Upscaled) - YouTube

[cpbell]

At 38 seconds the marshall ( I presume ) standing at the entrance to Tabac  looks very like the man in Michaels picture.

 

Going back to 30 seconds he seems to be waving something, presumably a flag though is partly hidden by the balustrade.

 

Subsequently we see ( I think ) Chiron & Sommer working through the crashed cars but it's not clear if this was at the time of the accident or a later lap ( I understand it took some time to clear the cars ) but if it was the lap of the accident then Fangio would've been on his next lap and the marshall already had his flag out in advance of Fangio reaching Tabac again. Hope that makes sense ! 

 

1950 Formula 1 Monaco Grand Prix Highlights (Colorized and AI-Upscaled) - YouTube

Those later clips must be quite a while after - the water and fuel on the road has dried and the cars are parked.

[LittleChris]

Those later clips must be quite a while after - the water and fuel on the road has dried and the cars are parked.

 

Sorry, I meant at 33 secs when Chiron / Sommer go through and there are a couple of drivers wandering towards the camera and one sitting on the balustrade to the right . Road is definitely wet at this point

[cpbell]

Sorry, I meant at 33 secs when Chiron / Sommer go through and there are a couple of drivers wandering towards the camera and one sitting on the balustrade to the right . Road is definitely wet at this point

Ah yes, I presume Fangio has already made his way past the accident scene once at that point.

[LittleChris]

or it's happened behind him and he's not come across it yet ........

[Michael Ferner]

Look where the shadows are...

Exactly where they should be.


Photoshopping? C'mon, are you for real? Why, for heaven's sake? For what purpose? This is not a conspiracy, is it? I feel like partaking in a Republican Party convention, I'm out of this...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 24 November 2020 - 08:33.

[ensign14]

There are plenty of photos that are basically montages - because action shots were so difficult to get. 

[cpbell]

Exactly where they should be.


Photoshopping? C'mon, are you for real? Why, for heaven's sake? For what purpose? This is not a conspiracy, is it? I feel like partaking in a Republican Party convention, I'm out of this...

Did you read Doug's post regarding photos being altered by traditional, analogue means to generate a superior composition?  We're not suggesting a pro-Fangio conspiracy, just that someone at the magazine modified the photo to make it appear more dramatic.

[D-Type]

I think the 1950 Monaco incident is simple if you think about it.
There was a yellow flag.  Fangio did see it.  And maybe eased off a bit as you would expect.
Fangio did notice the heads all turned the opposite way.  Whether this was when he emerged from the tunnel or on the exit from the chicane is immaterial. The point is that he noticed something unusual.

Add the the memory of the 1936 photo, which may have been subconscious at the time,  The result was that it set the alarm bells ringing and he slowed some more - enough to give himself time to take evasive action when he rounded the bend and met the accident.
Now all this happened in nano seconds and his actions were partially instinctive and only partially conscious actions.  He would only remember the conscious thoughts and piece together the unconscious ones.
We've all done it.  After an incident we piece together the clear memories, the half-remembered recollections and fill the gaps with surmise.  By a week later we are certain of the composite story in our own minds, particularly if we have then related it to someone else.

Edited by D-Type, 24 November 2020 - 18:17.

[cpbell]

I think the 1950 Monaco incident is simple if you think about it.
There was a yellow flag.  Fangio did see it.  And maybe eased off a bit as you would expect.
Fangio did notice the heads all turned the opposite way.  Whether this was when he emerged from the tunnel or on the exit from the chicane is immaterial. The point is that he noticed something unusual.

Add the the memory of the 1936 photo, which may have been subconscious at the time,  The result was that it set the alarm bells ringing and he slowed some more - enough to give himself time to take evasive action when he rounded the bend and met the accident.
Now all this happened in nano seconds and his actions were partially instinctive and only partially conscious actions.  He would only remember the conscious thoughts and piece together the unconscious ones.
We've all done it.  After an incident we piece together the clear memories, the half-remembered recollections and fill the gaps with surmise.  By a week later we are certain of the composite story in our own minds, particularly if we have then relaated it to someone else.

Agreed 100%. 

[Pablo Vignone]

The most the people who knew him, knew him, the most fondly they spoke of him.

But this new people thought of him as if the greats of the past never met Fangio nor praised him (or loathed, in this case)

The Mosses and Stewarts spoke to no avail, so

I interviewed him tow or three times, Buenos Aires and Balcarce, not so many time as Doug did, but didn't find a minimal signal of arrogance. And talked with Moss and with Stewart and with many people who told me lot of stories about Fangio, maybe the man who they think it was, probably not the man it really was.

But in this case, it seems, it's exactly the opposite.

Never heard Fangio speaking good of himself. But he was a human being after all, and there are too many stories about that, too. I heard a lot of it.

But self promotion it's hard to believe 

[Bikr7549]

I recall reading somewhere that Jim Clark had on some occasions motioned to a photographer on the side of the track using hand signals to reposition him slightly to get better action shots. Of course the photographers back then were nearly on the track in many cases, but shows that the drivers were aware of and paid at least some attention to off track activities.

[Doug Nye]

Perfectly true - Jimmy did that for Michael Cooper (amongst others), Chris Amon for Nick Loudon, Fangio (amongst others) for Bernard Cahier, etc etc.  Jackie Stewart at one stage was somewhat different - he would gesture to the photographers to move further back, and at one stage had a serious campaign to clear them from the inside of corners completely.  This did not endear him to the snappers.  Needless to say, JYS - and others who followed him - won.

 

DCN