64 replies to this topic

[FLB]

We now have another point of view and it's one that's not surprising.

 

 

Toto Wolff is completely opposed to what is being proposed in regards to equalizing engines (a balance of performance) before a development freeze. He cites his experience in the DTM with success ballast as one of the reasons.

 

 

Wolff: Engine performance balancing beginning of end for F1 - The Race (the-race.com)

Edited by FLB, 28 November 2020 - 19:36.

[northanmonkee2]

agree totaly if you want a spec series there are plenty to choose from 

[P123]

Naturally the team with the best engine would be opposed, and the team that cheated, got caught and fell behind would be all for it.  As would the team who have just been ditched by their engine partner.

 

Aside from the vested interests, it's not something F1 should strive for, otherwise there may as well be a spec engine to avoid all the bullshittery that would follow as manufacturers tried to fiddle the system.  And if a spec engine, why not a spec chassis.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Totally agree, the rules need changing, but not by doing this ...

[noikeee]

In principle I would agree, but we already had semi-equalized engines in 2005-2013 ("reliability upgrades", yeah right) and in the Cosworth era (almost everyone had the same engine anyway). And F1 not only survived that - it was better then.

[Ivanhoe]

And if a spec engine, why not a spec chassis.

Because every team can build a chassis, but only a few can built a competitive engine. Can’t see any customer team winning a WDC or WCC with the current PU’s. 

[Sam1]

Totally disagree the ruls are fine if you cant AFORD to be in f1 then leave

[w00dy]

I get his position. The dominant team/manufacturer wants to remain dominant. Whether convergence is the beginning of the end for F1, i don't know.

My understanding was that this is temporary, until the 2025/2026 engines come. Artificial catch-up for competition's sake.

 

Hopefully there still will be some form of F1 by then. Merc A and B teams putting on the show with legacy Ferrari giving it history, most races on the Arabian Peninsula, like a madmaxian hellscape...

[Ben1445]

I guess would be the beginning of the end (if not the end) for engine development in F1. Less convinced it would be the beginning of the end for F1 full stop. 

 

Thing is, ending engine development might actually be something F1 has to think about doing at some point in the future. Open engine competition is expensive and in a world in which ICE are entering decline (that decline could be fast or it could be slow, we don't know yet, but I think decline is the right word now) means that it might not be sustainable to continue it. A phase out may become the most logical and pragmatic path to take. 

 

That said, I suppose there's some merit behind the 'slippery slope' argument in that it could open up precedent and chart a path to more and more spec components. That means this issue should be treated with care.

Edited by Ben1445, 28 November 2020 - 20:14.

[LightningMcQueen]

An absolutely farcical suggestion, I just about understand it from red bulls perspective but for Ferrari to suggest it is embarrassing for them

Bring forward the engine rule changes, make the engines simple enough that even Ferrari can build one

[Paco]

Of course he is right. Screw Honda and RB. There are Renault engines to be had, it’s not as if there are none. Suck it up buttercup.

RB underperformed and it caused Honda a get of jail card for corporate to get out. They have only themselves to blame for the bad chassis and slow start this year. RB hasn’t progressed in 2 years and now even hanging on to one of the worst drivers on grid and not making a decision how to go next year.

F1 is NOT spec, why do all these casual fans try and change it. F1 outside of Covid isn’t about being fair and making it easy on manufacturers. It’s all about competition and it’s on Ferrari to get back to 2018-2019 level again and for RB to man up or get out. Renault back finding their legs. McLaren seem on the verge and maybe Aston Martin will be decent. We don’t need F1 more then RB think they do...

Edited by Paco, 28 November 2020 - 20:33.

[fed up]

Of course he is right. Screw Honda and RB. There are Renault engines to be had, it’s not as if there are none. Suck it up buttercup.

RB underperformed and it caused Honda a get of jail card for corporate to get out. They have only themselves to blame for the bad chassis and slow start this year. RB hasn’t progressed in 2 years and now even hanging on to one of the worst drivers on grid and not making a decision how to go next year.

F1 is NOT spec, why do all these casual fans try and change it. F1 outside of Covid isn’t about being fair and making it easy on manufacturers. It’s all about competition and it’s on Ferrari to get back to 2018-2019 level again and for RB to man up or get out. Renault back finding their legs. McLaren seem on the verge and maybe Aston Martin will be decent. We don’t need F1 more then RB think they do...

 
I hear you, brother 

[Ben1445]

F1 is NOT spec, why do all these casual fans try and change it. F1 outside of Covid isn’t about being fair and making it easy on manufacturers. It’s all about competition and it’s on Ferrari to get back to 2018-2019 level again and for RB to man up or get out. Renault back finding their legs. McLaren seem on the verge and maybe Aston Martin will be decent. We don’t need F1 more then RB think they do...

And yet all F1 cars have spec tyres but we don't call F1 spec today. 
 
On its own, such a proposal as this for the engines would not make F1 a spec series.

Edited by Ben1445, 28 November 2020 - 20:40.

[Risil]

Tyres are a bit different as they've always been supplied by a separate organization. No Grand Prix team has ever attempted to build their own.

 

IIRC there were attempts towards the end of the open tyre era to develop chassis and tyres in concert (Renault/Michelin, Ferrari/Bridgestone) but it's perhaps not a coincidence that control tyres came in soon afterwards.

[Ben1445]

Tyres are a bit different as they've always been supplied by a separate organization. No Grand Prix team has ever attempted to build their own.

 

IIRC there were attempts towards the end of the open tyre era to develop chassis and tyres in concert (Renault/Michelin, Ferrari/Bridgestone) but it's perhaps not a coincidence that control tyres came in soon afterwards.

There was open competition amongst the tyre suppliers though. That's very analogous to engines supplied to customer constructors. 

 

But the point very much still stands that such an action would not make F1 a spec series. 

Edited by Ben1445, 28 November 2020 - 20:50.

[FirstnameLastname]

Was it not Redbull who were against the cost cap and had a ‘if you can’t afford it, tough’ approach?

If they want their own engine operation, piggybacking already off the hard work Honda has done to redeem themselves, then they should be prepared to shoulder the costs involved. If not, pony up for some customer engines and accept your place in F1 as a customer team.

[THEWALL]

Naturally the team with the best engine would be opposed, and the team that cheated, got caught and fell behind would be all for it. As would the team who have just been ditched by their engine partner.

Aside from the vested interests, it's not something F1 should strive for, otherwise there may as well be a spec engine to avoid all the bullshittery that would follow as manufacturers tried to fiddle the system. And if a spec engine, why not a spec chassis.

Ahh the slippery slope.

[milestone 11]

Instead of resting on their illegal laurels these last two years, Ferrari would have been better employed in honest development. Had they have done so, they may not have found themselves in the position that they are now in.

They should have been banned from the series.

[Paco]

And yet all F1 cars have spec tyres but we don't call F1 spec today.

On its own, such a proposal as this for the engines would not make F1 a spec series.

Cause I guess you didn’t watch or forget how the tire war.... I don’t want that again where a tire manufacture wins the championship. Or a tire manufacture custom building tires for 1 team.

Pirelli are what they are cause that’s what F1 asked for. Still better then a tire war...

[Paco]

Instead of resting on their illegal laurels these last two years, Ferrari would have been better employed in honest development. Had they have done so, they may not have found themselves in the position that they are now in.
They should have been banned from the series.

That’s just not true. They couldn’t prove it was legal. Doesn’t mean it was illegal. The burden of proof for the FIA isn’t like a regular public court. More of a banana republic court were there isn’t rhyme or reason to their decisions.

The fact stands, Ferrari leaped Mercedes in the hybrid era, something even flexibwings and whatever stuff RB employees they haven’t been able. Had RB done a better job this year, hired a proper 2nd driver they may not have found in this mess.

Plus, lovely how they go against even their own principles on a whim. It’s whatever serves them and only them. Their actions are just ridiculous.

[Ben1445]

Cause I guess you didn’t watch or forget how the tire war.... I don’t want that again where a tire manufacture wins the championship. Or a tire manufacture custom building tires for 1 team.

Pirelli are what they are cause that’s what F1 asked for. Still better then a tire war...

I wasn’t aware I was giving off any pro or anti tyre war sentiments there... and either way I’m not sure how that would be relevant.

[ferrarista]

Instead of resting on their illegal laurels these last two years, Ferrari would have been better employed in honest development. Had they have done so, they may not have found themselves in the position that they are now in.
They should have been banned from the series.

An absolutely farcical suggestion, I just about understand it from red bulls perspective but for Ferrari to suggest it is embarrassing for them

Bring forward the engine rule changes, make the engines simple enough that even Ferrari can build one

Better the next Ferrari engine doesn’t deliver, you would look like fools.

Also milestone 11, the Ferrari engine has never been declared illegal, so be careful with what you say.

[NixxxoN]

And Formula 1 having turned into Formula Mercedes is not the end of F1. Lol

Nice try Toto, but we've seen that before many times with other "politicians" like Horner

Edited by NixxxoN, 28 November 2020 - 21:48.

[fed up]

There was open competition amongst the tyre suppliers though. That's very analogous to engines supplied to customer constructors. 

 

But the point very much still stands that such an action would not make F1 a spec series. 

yes but you have to view this in the context of other changes that F1 will be implementing and proposing namely, salary cap, budget cap and now this. In my view the proposed engine harmonisation and development freeze will lead to a spec series by stealth

[Diablobb81]

Totally disagree the ruls are fine if you cant AFORD to be in f1 then leave

Not sure if serious. I forgot you can find F1 power units on every street corner.

The whole power unit regulations have been a bad joke and detrimental to F1. I wouldn't expect anything else from Toto though.

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2020 - 22:02.

[mclarensmps]

He's right. 

It's not Mercedes' fault they're in this position. It's the other teams and the FIA rules

This isn't the solution. 

 

[fed up]

My guess is RBR are being a bit devious with their approach. If they can get engine harmonisation for 2022 and then the freeze, why do they need to spend $$$m on developing their own engine when they can pick up a harmonised Renault engine for $30m for both teams and be in the same position without the headache of building an engine. 
 

Honda’s silence on all of this is telling. I’m not sure they’ve agreed to pass on their IP to RBR and are less likely to do so if RBR do a Brawn Gp on them, again!

[Branislav]

Look at this

 

 

 

“We won’t do Balance of Performance because as I said before, that is not in the interest of any car manufacturer, nor Formula 1 nor the drivers.

https://www.racefans...n-insult-wolff/

 

In the name of wich drivers he speaks? Even his Hamilton said he would welcome eqaul cars. Toto, Toto...

 

 

 

And here he already said engines are equal https://www.planetf1...acturers-equal/

 

What a hypocricy!

[NoDivergence]

Better the next Ferrari engine doesn’t deliver, you would look like fools.

Also milestone 11, the Ferrari engine has never been declared illegal, so be careful with what you say.

 

Yeah, cuz most engines cost their teams a second a lap when the team has to follow the rules. 

 

Nice. 

 

As the saying goes. The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by NoDivergence, 28 November 2020 - 22:57.

[Requiem84]

All teams shouting and crying to get what is best for them is another start reminder why THEY shouldn’t decide this.

They’ll only act in their own little interest and package it is a cloud of marketing oumpf to sell us a story they are acting for the benefit of the sport.

Insecere stuff, by all of them.

[Atreiu]

I don’t care enough to have any strong opinion. I don’t see things getting much worse anyhow. I still hope Red Bull and Alfa Tauri just pull out and precipitate the end of this particular powertrain era.

[beachdrifter]

Naturally the team with the best engine would be opposed, and the team that cheated, got caught and fell behind would be all for it.  As would the team who have just been ditched by their engine partner.

 

Aside from the vested interests, it's not something F1 should strive for, otherwise there may as well be a spec engine to avoid all the bullshittery that would follow as manufacturers tried to fiddle the system.  And if a spec engine, why not a spec chassis.

 

^^^

 

nothing more needs to be said

[ARTGP]

Toto supports the engine freeze as long as Mercedes advantage gets locked in.

 

Maybe try a little harder not to sound so self-serving?

 

If you don't want to freeze the engines when everybody has reached the same level, then don't freeze them at all.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 00:06.

[pdac]

My guess is RBR are being a bit devious with their approach. If they can get engine harmonisation for 2022 and then the freeze, why do they need to spend $$$m on developing their own engine when they can pick up a harmonised Renault engine for $30m for both teams and be in the same position without the headache of building an engine. 
 

Honda’s silence on all of this is telling. I’m not sure they’ve agreed to pass on their IP to RBR and are less likely to do so if RBR do a Brawn Gp on them, again!

 

Yes, I'm not sure why more people haven't seen this. All the talk about Red Bull taking the Honda PUs and developing (or, at lease, manufacturing) then themselves is coming from Red Bull only. All Honda have said on the matter is that they would like to try to help Red Bull if they can. It makes total sense for Red Bull to pretend that there is a chance of them developing their own PU, even if there is no hope in hell of it happening. It all helps them to try to negotiate the best possible outcome from the FIA and the other teams.

[CountDooku]

Toto supports the engine freeze as long as Mercedes advantage gets locked in.

Maybe try a little harder not to sound so self-serving?

When did he say that? This is the same Toto who voted to end tokens and gave Ferrari and Honda help with their engines!

[shure]

Disagree.  The beginning of the end started with the Pirelli tyres followed by the hybrids.  This is minor in comparison

[ARTGP]

When did he say that? This is the same Toto who voted to end tokens and gave Ferrari and Honda help with their engines!

 

He doesn't have to say it. Mercedes are opposed to the engine freeze if the others are allowed to reach parity. 

 

Also the comment you reference was 4 years ago.

 

I don't have any problem with Mercedes having a desire to protect their interest. That's the smart thing to do. But just come out and say that's what you want, not that you care about Red Bull's fortune  . Otherwise RB would have Mercs. Toto can make anything happen if he's motivated 

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 01:52.

[Hellenic tifosi]

This is one of the very few times that I fully agree with Toto.

[ForzaFormula]

He doesn't have to say it. Mercedes are opposed to the engine freeze if the others are allowed to reach parity.

Also the comment you reference was 4 years ago.

I don't have any problem with Mercedes having a desire to protect their interest. That's the smart thing to do. But just come out and say that's what you want, not that you care about Red Bull's fortune . Otherwise RB would have Mercs. Toto can make anything happen if he's motivated

So you made it up and are calling toto a liar, and also work for Mercedes to have such inside knowledge, what position in the team are you?

[ARTGP]

So you made it up and are calling toto a liar, and also work for Mercedes to have such inside knowledge, what position in the team are you?

 

What are you talking about? Mercedes support the early engine freeze, but they are opposed to allowing others to catchup if they are behind.  It's in the article: https://the-race.com...g-of-end-for-f1

 

 

 

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff has warned that engine performance balancing would mark the “beginning of the end” for Formula 1 and it would be an “embarrassment” if a manufacturer needs it to boost competitiveness ahead of a development freeze.

 

If the other manufacturers will be locked into a disadvantage, then don't freeze the engines at all.  Atleast that way it's not artificial disadvantage. The way I see it, engine freeze disadvantage and engine freeze with allowed convergence are both artificial, but one is clearly better for competition...I'd rather no freeze at all, but if there is going to be one, then do it with convergence.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 08:22.

[CountDooku]

He doesn't have to say it. Mercedes are opposed to the engine freeze if the others are allowed to reach parity.

Also the comment you reference was 4 years ago.

I don't have any problem with Mercedes having a desire to protect their interest. That's the smart thing to do. But just come out and say that's what you want, not that you care about Red Bull's fortune . Otherwise RB would have Mercs. Toto can make anything happen if he's motivated

I have not seen Toto say anywhere in any of the quited articles that he supports an engine freeze. And Toto is very clear that he’s not in favour of BoP here, not mechanisms to help others catch up. There’s no reason for you to make stuff up the guy hasn’t said.

[ARTGP]

I have not seen Toto say anywhere in any of the quited articles that he supports an engine freeze. And Toto is very clear that he’s not in favour of BoP here, not mechanisms to help others catch up. There’s no reason for you to make stuff up the guy hasn’t said.

 

Toto supports freeze:

1. https://www.planetf1...-engine-freeze/
2. https://www.motorspo...4902153/?nrt=54

 

Toto is opposed to convergence and any mechanisms to help others catch up (Renault also):

 

https://the-race.com...-of-end-for-f1/

 

 

When asked by The Race if any kind of corrective measure carried the same problem as BoP in principle, Wolff called it “bit of an insult” that rivals are tabling a system of “convergence” having previously pushed for the original token-based engine development system to be scrapped so they could catch Mercedes at the start of the V6 turbo-hybrid era.

He launched an impassioned argument against any kind of performance balancing, and pointed to Mercedes redoubling its efforts in the wake of Ferrari’s clear (and controversial) power advantage developed over 2018 and 2019.

“We continued to push the boundaries and we brought something to the track in 2020, that we were hoping would catch up,” he said.

“And that’s why I cannot comprehend that any car manufacturer that trusts in its abilities to develop a power unit and a chassis would want some kind of mechanism that would balance the power units out.

“I don’t think that anybody would accept such a humiliation in public.”

 

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 08:56.

[KeithD68]

We've had engine freezes before and all they achieved was lock in a dominant engine advantage.  The last time it was the Mercedes engine, the time before that was the Renault engine.

 

Anyone who thinks it isn't going to deliver exactly the same effect next time is frankly deluded.

 

Engine freezes are not the way to improve racing.

[ARTGP]

It needs to be one or the other.

1. Keep it open (with budget cap and no one to blame but yourself),
2. Freeze + convergence (This is artificial, but atleast there is not an artificial locked in pecking order because the chassis development is open within the budget cap). 

Freeze without convergence is the worst of both worlds. It's artificial, and it locks in a pecking order that as we saw in 2014-2017, no chassis development can overcome.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 09:04.

[ARTGP]

above all of this, it's quite clear what the motivations are.

 

Do you all think it's coincidence that Renault and Mercedes (the two best power units) don't want convergence. and the two weakest manufacturers (Ferrari and RB) do?

 

and that prior, Renault and Ferrari didn't want the freeze (because they wanted to catch Mercedes). While Mercedes (the best power unit) supported the freeze under the guise of wanting to "help" RB? Do you think Mercedes want to help RB genuinely? If you do, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

Team principals serve their own teams interest, and no one else's.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 09:15.

[CountDooku]

Toto supports freeze:

• https://www.planetf1...-engine-freeze/
• https://www.motorspo...4902153/?nrt=54

Toto is opposed to convergence and any mechanisms to help others catch up (Renault also):

https://the-race.com...-of-end-for-f1/

Fair enough, that’s hypocritical BS from Toto and retract my earlier reply to you!
He should tell Red Bull to get fökked and take the Renault.

[Burtros]

The beginning of the end came in 2014 when F1 first raced with these nonsense power unit regulations, Toto.

Like so many things the fact BoP is even being mentioned is a symptom of the sheer scale of the failure of the current rule set.

These engines are not fit for competitive sport and the series needs to get rid of them well ahead of 2026.

[milestone 11]

That’s just not true. They couldn’t prove it was legal. Doesn’t mean it was illegal. The burden of proof for the FIA isn’t like a regular public court. More of a banana republic court were there isn’t rhyme or reason to their decisions.
The fact stands, Ferrari leaped Mercedes in the hybrid era, something even flexibwings and whatever stuff RB employees they haven’t been able. Had RB done a better job this year, hired a proper 2nd driver they may not have found in this mess.
Plus, lovely how they go against even their own principles on a whim. It’s whatever serves them and only them. Their actions are just ridiculous.

Don't be ridiculous. Were the performance gotten by legal means they would still be using it. The rest of your post is a non sequitur.

[FTB]

The engine advantage basically ensured Mercedes would be dominant in 2014-2016. 2017 and 2018 were the only years where we had a WDC-WCC battle thanks to Ferrari catching up ( worth noting that Mercedes still had the best engine in 2017 in terms of both power and reliability but Ferrari's great chassis and aerodynamics allowed them to challenge ). 2018 was the first year where Mercedes got overtaken engine wise. 

And the inferior engines prevented Red Bull from challenging since the start of hybrid era. In 2017 we couldn't see Red Bull and Mclaren in the championship fight as both teams produced great cars held back by terrible engines.

 

Had F1 continued with the previous engine format, in 2014-2016 we would have had Red Bull and Ferrari contending for regular race wins ( and also Mclaren in 2015, their chassis-aero package was good in 2015 ). Maybe we could have even seen Red Bull battling for championship in 2016. In 2017 we could have had 4 teams battling for the championship as Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren had great chassis-aero packages. In 2018 we had Red Bull basically out of contention due to the engine and in 2019-2020 Red Bull is once again out of contention due to the engine.

[ARTGP]

Fair enough, that’s hypocritical BS from Toto and retract my earlier reply to you!
He should tell Red Bull to get fökked and take the Renault.

 

As unkind as it sounds, yes   . 

 

It just seems like Merc perhaps see an opportunity to end up back in 2014 and using the freeze to lock it in, and I'm properly terrified   . 

Edited by ARTGP, 29 November 2020 - 10:25.