64 replies to this topic

[ferrarista]

Ecclestone (some years ago) said that Mercedes basically wrote with the FIA the engine rules and knew in advance about them, well in advance than Ferrari and Renault. Then, Ferrari and Renault underestimated the challenge (this is purely their fault) and when realized that they needed more money and resources and as a result a completely different PU, it was too late, with the engine tokens in place the engine advantage of Toto was locked in. At the time there was a lot of talk how they reached that power, only in 2017 Ferrari understood it was oil burning and started to use it. As always, they exaggerated with the use of a second oil tank that was discovered at Baku 2017, while Mercedes continued to use it (they basically knew better than any other manufacturer the secrets of these engines and as result they were able to use oil burning without having problems with the legality tests), at the point that in 2017 they brought forward the Monza spec to Spa to avoid the new oil consumption rule that would start in Monza, breaking a “gentlemen” agreement with Ferrari.
In the meantime Honda is back and it’s a bloodbath and Renault understands a lot more money need to be pumped to be remotely competitive.
In the same time, Ferrari starts with their grey (illegal? we don’t know with certainty) engine in 2018, the only way to physically pass Mercedes (in an engine era dominated by the team which wrote the rules hand in hand with the FIA) is through “grey” means (because now we can reasonably say that the mercedes engine represents the yardstick of what physically is possible), but again the same mistake as in 2017, they exaggerated in 2019 (because apparently the chassis dept has forgotten how to build a competitive chassis), then the FIA agreement, the Covid 19 and all what’s happened in 2020.
What I want to say, is that the sooner they get rid of these engines the better, they created a monster, the failure of Honda’s project is illuminating, nobody can pass Mercedes under this set of engine rules, Ferrari tried in another way and are now fighting Williams, in the best case they can get close to the Mercedes engine (see Honda and Renault in 2020), but Mercedes will always be a step ahead because they weren’t complacent (and I applaude them for that) and in the years they could build the car package around an engine adv that got smaller through the years but that was decisive to build that chassis/aero platform which (+ Lewis) makes them absolutely unbeatable.

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edit: F1AT point of view on this

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Edited by ferrarista, 29 November 2020 - 10:58.

[Augurk]

Of course a BoP isn't in the nature of F1, but so isn't freezing development.

Don't see how you can freeze development of one of the most important parts for years (which are not available to purchase for all teams) and not somehow make sure they are roughly equal. In fact there is precedent.

Freezing the possibility of teams to catch up and therefore freezing the order is against the nature of F1.

[Branislav]

The Show is most important. If I own F1 I would do everything for the show. And trust me no one would pull out because I would give them more than they recieve now.

[Ben1445]

Of course a BoP isn't in the nature of F1, but so isn't freezing development.

Don't see how you can freeze development of one of the most important parts for years (which are not available to purchase for all teams) and not somehow make sure they are roughly equal. In fact there is precedent.

Freezing the possibility of teams to catch up and therefore freezing the order is against the nature of F1.

I absolutely can, but realistically speaking probably not for a few years yet. Before 2026 it is almost certainly a non starter. After that...who knows? 

[ForzaFormula]

Toto supports freeze:

1. https://www.planetf1...-engine-freeze/
2. https://www.motorspo...4902153/?nrt=54

 

Toto is opposed to convergence and any mechanisms to help others catch up (Renault also):

 

https://the-race.com...-of-end-for-f1/

 

Apologies, you are right, however I just don't want to see a spec engine series or engine freeze, but its difficult with this current tech and regs for teams to catch up, Ferrari could only do it by cheating for example, but that's credit to Merc for the work they have done.

[ArnageWRC]

BoP, handicapping, ballast, etc have no place in any World Championship. It's a failure of the regs if any type of equalisation is needed.

[AlexPrime]

Merc's dominance is the end of F1, BoP is needed.

[Chillimeister]

Easy for Wolff to take the moral high ground about the DNA of F1 etc. when his team has been the beneficiary of a significant head start on engine regs/simplified front wings which disproportionately disadvantage high rake designs/thinner construction tyres and so on. Despite that I do agree that F1 is supposed to be about engineering excellence but I also understand the point of view of those who would like BoP to help improve the racing. Of course the cost cap is supposed to help address that, but no-one will be very surprised if the usual suspects are still way out in front.

[Augurk]

I absolutely can, but realistically speaking probably not for a few years yet. Before 2026 it is almost certainly a non starter. After that...who knows? 

I also see how you can freeze it, but not if there's huge performance deficits across the grid because of it. Locking teams into uncompetitiveness is not the F1 way. Nor is guaranteeing a team's competitiveness.

 

And as we talk about the "DNA of F1" we should try to open our eyes and see that F1 has got to adapt to new times. The times of car manufacturers spending billions to develop niche engines is gone. 

We've had free engine development the past 7 years. What has it really given us? Billions upon billions have been spent to have... roughly the same pecking order as when we started? And an unbroken streak of domination. 

It's ridiculous. 

[TheAviator]

This is why I am very reluctant to believe anything this guy says. Being up for engine freeze but not engine convergence tells you all you need to know really. They have the advantage, and are in for actually locking that advantage.

[fed up]

Merc's dominance is the end of F1, BoP is needed.

 

F1 is a meritocracy. The best team - Mercedes - attract the best drivers, the best engineers, the best sponsors, the best PR people etc. To be the best takes effort, dedication and an obsession to be the best. That is AMG Mercedes Petronas in a nutshell.

 

Now, what is the opposite of a Meritocracy? kakistocracy - or state or society governed by its least suitable or competent. If F1 chooses to go down this route it will diminish the sport and dissuade innovation and excellence. Why employ the best when ultimately you'll have to dumb down your performance to appease the worst?

 

Rather than go down this route, F1 should try and find ways to blunt Mercedes performance. The only problem with this however, is because of their obsession, drive and skill, they'll rise to the top whatever is put in place to stop them.

 

The other teams need to step up or go home.

[shure]

F1 is a meritocracy. The best team - Mercedes - attract the best drivers, the best engineers, the best sponsors, the best PR people etc. To be the best takes effort, dedication and an obsession to be the best. That is AMG Mercedes Petronas in a nutshell.

 

Now, what is the opposite of a Meritocracy? kakistocracy - or state or society governed by its least suitable or competent. If F1 chooses to go down this route it will diminish the sport and dissuade innovation and excellence. Why employ the best when ultimately you'll have to dumb down your performance to appease the worst?

 

Rather than go down this route, F1 should try and find ways to blunt Mercedes performance. The only problem with this however, is because of their obsession, drive and skill, they'll rise to the top whatever is put in place to stop them.

 

The other teams need to step up or go home.

Red Bull were the best team 2010-2013.  Did all the best engineers etc abandon them overnight at the end of 2013?  And did they all go to Merc?

 

Merc have been the best in the hybrid era.  And they've been helped to be the best by the regulations.  The others have little possibility of stepping up because they have a) restricted development and b) bugger all testing, so every gain they make is incremental  and every flaw and set back exposed during race weekends.  The rules couldn't have been designed to allow one team to keep an advantage if they tried.  This should have been abundantly obvious from the McHonda fiasco when they just couldn't dig themselves out of the hole they were in for years.  Nothing like this has ever happened before.

 

It's way too simplistic to say that Merc are the best and everyone else just has to step up.  Merc doesn't have a monopoly on bright people, be it engineers, drivers, sponsors or PR people.  As long as F1 restricts the ability of competitors to catch up, things won't change.

[Branislav]

If you guys look how FIA overthrew Ferrari and later Red Bull you realize everything is theatrical play

 

Don't to mention how FIA, before Ferrari became dominant, helped them

 

So for god's sake give fans what they want, to witness best driver wins not the best car by miles.

[MinardiCrashDummy]

 

If you guys look how FIA overthrew Ferrari and later Red Bull you realize everything is theatrical play

 

Don't to mention how FIA, before Ferrari became dominant, helped them

 

So for god's sake give fans what they want, to witness best driver wins not the best car by miles.

 

That's like 90% of F1 titles

Edited by MinardiCrashDummy, 30 November 2020 - 11:25.

[pdac]

The Show is most important. If I own F1 I would do everything for the show. And trust me no one would pull out because I would give them more than they recieve now.

 

I think Liberty were of that opinion too. Then they got a rude awakening when the found out that the teams (well two or three of them) are the ones who hold power. Ross Brawn was all "we will do this" and "we will do that" when he was first take on, but when the contracts ran out and they had the chance to impose significant changes, they didn't do anything.