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The Grosjean crash and the current safety standards


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#1 Beri

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:33

Not necessary to elaborate further what crash this is about.
But one big big big ovation by me for the safety standards that are in place today. What an incredible freak accident this was and how incredible lucky he was to have survived it.

No matter the halo, no matter the tethered wheels, no matter any other safety standard they have all proved their worth and I'm happy that they exist.

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#2 Dalin80

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:34

The car did absolutely 100% of what it was supposed to do, but maybe we are now past the era of using plates of guillotine steel as barriers.



#3 fisssssi

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:34

Ironically, one of the reasons we have the halo is because Grosjean himself almost decapitated Alonso in 2012.



#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:36

If you look at the record for FIA sanctioned series since..let's go back to the Bianchi accident, there have been too many close calls and stupid incidents. Vehicles crossing the circuit in F4, a World Touring Car hitting an exposed vehicle, various F1 ****ups. Bit of a gallic shrug and we move on. 



#5 f1rules

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:36

Thank god he is ok, horrofying crash

#6 mclarensmps

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:36

I won't complain about how the Halo looks on the cars again. Those images tell us the exact picture of how I was completely wrong.

 



#7 Kev00

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:37

The car did absolutely 100% of what it was supposed to do, but maybe we are now past the era of using plates of guillotine steel as barriers.


It’s supposed to burst into flames?

#8 Gecko

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:37

Armco against an F1 survival cell has no chance. Armco just doesn't seem like a good barrier for carbonfibre open-wheelers, and that will likely be revised.



#9 Atreiu

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:38

I don’t consider it a freak accident. F1 destroyed barriers at three different circuits already this season (remember the red flags at Monza and Mugello). Seems like F1 has crossed a tipping point of speed and mass and very few circuits are properly equipped to deal with the dangers.

#10 Disgrace

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:38

If you look at the record for FIA sanctioned series since..let's go back to the Bianchi accident, there have been too many close calls and stupid incidents. Vehicles crossing the circuit in F4, a World Touring Car hitting an exposed vehicle, various F1 ****ups. Bit of a gallic shrug and we move on. 

 

And it is a miracle that none of Pironi, Heidfield or Floersch were killed by sausage kerbs. And we still see them.



#11 absinthedude

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:38

No more complaints about the halo looking less than pretty. It just prevented a man being decapitated live on television. 

 

That barrier needs investigating. It should not have performed that way.

 

Thankfully hearing Romain just has light burns where the suit meets his gloves and boots and is shocked.....the very best possible outcome from this. I've not really seen anything like that since Ronnie at Monza in 1978. 



#12 Scotracer

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:38

F*** me.

#13 Dalin80

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:40

It’s supposed to burst into flames?

Even a self sealing fuel tank can't do much about being cut in two by a set of giant blades.
 



#14 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:40

There was a screenshot in the race thread.

 

 

Straight through....

QyXM876.png

 

That Romain walked away is a testament to the safety features of modern F1 cars. However, that barrier should be looked at in future.



#15 Astandahl

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:40

That was scary as ****..



#16 Kev00

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:41

Romain was sat in an inferno for at least 25 seconds I reckon. So incredibly lucky

#17 Laster

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:42

Watching the replay you can see Grosjean’s visor has been smashed too. So lucky. Both the halo and the rollover hoop gave enough space. But damn that is shocking to watch with each replay.

#18 flingsofdeon

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:43

Probably the worst accident I’ve seen. Genuinely in shock watching it. Wow. Sickening and incredible he got out

#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:44

I don’t consider it a freak accident. F1 destroyed barriers at three different circuits already this season (remember the red flags at Monza and Mugello). Seems like F1 has crossed a tipping point of speed and mass and very few circuits are properly equipped to deal with the dangers.

 

Nothing to do with weight and speed, and this accident is nothing like Mugello or Monza. 



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#20 Paco

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:45

I won't complain about how the Halo looks on the cars again. Those images tell us the exact picture of how I was completely wrong.


Right there with you. Thank god it wasn’t an aero screen.

Thank God FIA had the courage to put that through. I was so wrong.

Edited by Paco, 29 November 2020 - 14:50.


#21 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:46

Nothing to do with weight and speed, and this accident is nothing like Mugello or Monza. 

This accident is more to with a perfect storm of impact angles and fence construction.



#22 f1rules

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:47

I think its the worst crash i ever witnessed... kubica was bad but this...

Edited by f1rules, 29 November 2020 - 14:48.


#23 George Costanza

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:48

That's was a really horrific accident. Thankfully he is alive.

#24 thegamer23

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:48

You just cannot leave a bare guard rail there...

#25 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:49

Why aren't we using the barriers like at silverstone? The tyre barriers.

#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:50

This accident is more to with a perfect storm of impact angles and fence construction.

 

It's not a perfect storm or a freak accident. It was an absolutely unacceptable barrier. It seems like most of the circuit is lined with it, but having it at an angle to the racing line in an area where cars can go off? Insane. Do these guys not notice anything when they do all their track walks?



#27 Paco

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:51

At end of day, you can predict everything. I don’t blame the track or FIA or barrier etc.

At least the FIA std on the safety cell and halo did what it’s suppose to do and saved his life.

#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:52

The track and the FIA are responsible for that barrier situation. How can they not be blamed? 



#29 Peat

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:54

Best quote i've seen:
"It would have been much easier to get him out if the Halo wasn't there by virtue of him being in several smaller pieces."



#30 thegamer23

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:54

The track and the FIA are responsible for that barrier situation. How can they not be blamed?


They have to be blamed.

Ghiotto had similar impact in Sochi, but there were Tec Pros there.

#31 Byros

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:54

The most important thing is that Grosjean is alive and hopefully will be able to recover fully,

I'm surprised that car broke up in half like that with an instant explosion, sky is not showing the impact from Grosjean's on board camera so it's hard to see how everything unfolded, but perhaps there is room for improvement in terms of making the current cars more resistant to lateral impacts.

#32 ensign14

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:54

Think it doesn't help that they've been far too casual with driving standards.  How much of that whole incident was because Stroll came hurtling back on track throwing sand and debris backwards?



#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:55

The track and the FIA are responsible for that barrier situation. How can they not be blamed? 

Because the FIA probably have a document which lays down the maximum angle to the track that an unprotected Armco barrier can be and this barrier was probably within that. They might change that in future as a result of it, but it’s far more likely that the barrier met existing standards which need to be tightened rather than it just been outside of the safety standards.



#34 Atreiu

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:55

Nothing to do with weight and speed, and this accident is nothing like Mugello or Monza.


You are reinforcing my point. Three different crashes, but weight and speed beat the barriers in all three occasions. Each crash has been more dangerous than the one before.

#35 ensign14

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:55

The most important thing is that Grosjean is alive and hopefully will be able to recover fully,

I'm surprised that car broke up in half like that with an instant explosion, sky is not showing the impact from Grosjean's on board camera so it's hard to see how everything unfolded, but perhaps there is room for improvement in terms of making the current cars more resistant to lateral impacts.

It's the torque, isn't it?  The front being trapped while the back was still rotating.  Like Rindt's crash.



#36 Ellios

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:56

This is incredible, I'm so glad he got out of there as quickly as he did. 

 

https://streamable.com/rh7ynl



#37 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:56

I'm with Ross here.  This isn't a good story about F1 safety, this is a bad story that only by luck didn't turn into a tragic story.  We know that a car crashing head on into an armco will disintegrate, and even survival cell's integrity is not guaranteed.  We've known that for decades.



#38 absinthedude

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:57

Quite simply the barrier should not have split like it did, allowing the survival cell to penetrate it. The barrier needs to be looked at, as do others around the world to ensure this doesn't happen again.



#39 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:57

The most important thing is that Grosjean is alive and hopefully will be able to recover fully,

I'm surprised that car broke up in half like that with an instant explosion, sky is not showing the impact from Grosjean's on board camera so it's hard to see how everything unfolded, but perhaps there is room for improvement in terms of making the current cars more resistant to lateral impacts.

I think this is more like what happened to space shuttle Challenger.  It looked like the the thing exploded, but actually it was torn apart, and the fire happened due to general disintegration.  There is no way to make a car strong enough for that impact, it hit head on and dug in into the barrier.



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#40 shure

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:58

The most important thing is that Grosjean is alive and hopefully will be able to recover fully,

I'm surprised that car broke up in half like that with an instant explosion, sky is not showing the impact from Grosjean's on board camera so it's hard to see how everything unfolded, but perhaps there is room for improvement in terms of making the current cars more resistant to lateral impacts.

On Dutch TV they've just explained that the car turned sideways after the immediate impact and then hit a support pole for the barrier sideways on, which effectively sliced the car in half just behind the safety tub.  Freak sequence of events



#41 fisssssi

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:58

They've got to the stop the cars shedding debris at the slightest touch. Get red of the floor extending out from under the cars, start fining teams that litter the track with shards of carbon fiber.



#42 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:58

Because the FIA probably have a document which lays down the maximum angle to the track that an unprotected Armco barrier can be and this barrier was probably within that. They might change that in future as a result of it, but it’s far more likely that the barrier met existing standards which need to be tightened rather than it just been outside of the safety standards.

 

As soon as I saw the impact point my reaction was "why is that barrier angled like that, why is there no protective layer, and...holy **** is that guardrail?"



#43 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:59

You are reinforcing my point. Three different crashes, but weight and speed beat the barriers in all three occasions. Each crash has been more dangerous than the one before.

 

A Formula 3 car would get cut open by guardrail, that's why you're not supposed to use it. It's lethal lethal stuff. 



#44 Calum

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 14:59

We got away with one today.

 

Lots of parts doing their job to help - quick medical team response, the safety cell, the halo - but a slice of luck as well!

 

What relief when he was shown to be talking away in the medi-car!



#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:00

As soon as I saw the impact point my reaction was "why is that barrier angled like that, why is there no protective layer, and...holy fuck is that guardrail?"

Which is fair enough. I had similar thoughts. But you are proposing a witch hunt, rather than an investigation.



#46 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:01

I would love to see an investigation as to why multiple people didn't go "wait a minute, that's not safe, we can easily hit that" 

 

Hell the entire length of that straight looks like guardrail? Just with some ad boards in some sections? The bit that's sticking out is bad because you're more likely to have a head on impact(you won't really get a true head on with a parallel barrier because the car will sill be moving 'forward' regardless of which way it's facing) and it was in an area where cars could tangle and leave the pavement. 


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 29 November 2020 - 15:02.


#47 FLB

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:01

If you look at the record for FIA sanctioned series since..let's go back to the Bianchi accident, there have been too many close calls and stupid incidents. Vehicles crossing the circuit in F4, a World Touring Car hitting an exposed vehicle, various F1 ****ups. Bit of a gallic shrug and we move on. 

The Ghiotto fire in Russia as well. If something had been in the way of him getting out...



#48 ensign14

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:02

They've got to the stop the cars shedding debris at the slightest touch. Get red of the floor extending out from under the cars, start fining teams that litter the track with shards of carbon fiber.

But that's a good thing.  It's taking the force of the impact away from the driver.

 

You can see cars that are barely damaged and the driver has been killed - because all of the impact has gone through the driver's neck.  Chet Miller for instance.



#49 JHSingo

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:05

That's two miracles I've witnessed this year. The MotoGP near miss in Austria earlier in the year, and today. It's unbelievable that no-one was killed in either of those incidents.

 

Thank you racing gods.



#50 djparky

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Posted 29 November 2020 - 15:07

It's not a perfect storm or a freak accident. It was an absolutely unacceptable barrier. It seems like most of the circuit is lined with it, but having it at an angle to the racing line in an area where cars can go off? Insane. Do these guys not notice anything when they do all their track walks?


And its 30% along the straight...no car has gone off there in 13 years of various races happening at the track, and if either the drivers or anyone else thought it unsafe they would have said so.

and if you want the escape road what else are they going to do- leaving it exposed will not happen. If there had been tyres or safer barrier the crash would have bad unless you want it half mile from the track