16 replies to this topic

[Rediscoveryx]

Yes, it does sound quite ridiculous, but hear me out...

 

Lewis is breaking all-time records left, right and center and will without a shred of doubt go down in history as one of the greatest drivers of all time. But still, some will argue that his stats are inflated, not only by the sheer number of races (and bullet-proof reliability of his era), but also by the fact that he has won his titles against relatively weak team-mates in the best car by far.

 

The point here isn't whether or not that's true, but that this is a possible narrative that can be strung around his career.

 

Let's just say hypothetically that Alonso had been in the other Merc from 2014 onwards, and that Lewis would prevail in 4 WDC's against Alonso's 3 in this completely made up scenario. I'd imagine that this would be seen as a Senna/Prost-esque classic rivalry that would elevate not only Alonsos status, but also that of Lewis, even though (statistically) he would have a much weaker CV to show for it than what he has today. One could just look at Senna and Prost for instance, who both have weaker CV's statistically than Vettel, but whose legacy surely will be greater than Sebs.

 

In hindsight, the fact that Lewis lost the 2016 title to Rosberg may not have been such a bad thing for his own reputation after all. The paradox is that by losing the title, all of his successful title campaigns against Rosberg were suddenly won against "World Champion Rosberg" instead of against "Good-but-not-great Rosberg". One could therefore argue that Lewis' legacy benefits more from having lost 2016 than it would have had he won it. 

 

So... am I on to anything here or just blabbering a bunch of nonsense?

[Ivanhoe]

Don't think this is gonna end well...

[Myrvold]

I agree with Ivanhoe here that this will not end well.

 

However, it is a bit Lancia in Gr.A rallying over it. They dominated rallying during the early Gr.A years, but pulled out when costs got high, but also due to the fact that there was no "wow! Look at how great this car is!" when they won. Instead all it ended up with was "It was a rally last weekend and Lancia won, of course... But did you see the new Toyota??". They felt like the good PR they got for winning was falling due to them winning too much.

[shure]

you only have to look at how people are tearing down Schumacher's legacy by dismissing it as having a lap dog team mate to know that that's true.  Quality of opposition is very important for perception of a driver's worth.  Like it or not, Hamilton will always have questions on the value of is records, just like Schumacher has done.  If it looks too easy, people generally assume it is too easy

[H0R]

Cookie, anyone?

[Calum]

I agree with Ivanhoe here that this will not end well.

 

However, it is a bit Lancia in Gr.A rallying over it. They dominated rallying during the early Gr.A years, but pulled out when costs got high, but also due to the fact that there was no "wow! Look at how great this car is!" when they won. Instead all it ended up with was "It was a rally last weekend and Lancia won, of course... But did you see the new Toyota??". They felt like the good PR they got for winning was falling due to them winning too much.

 

 

Could see that happening with Mercedes if their season stats on poles/wins/laps led are still the same in the 2022 era! 

[balage06]

[Beri]

Cookie, anyone?

 

Im getting popcorn.

[eibyyz]

I like this one: https://i.ytimg.com/...o/hqdefault.jpg

 

 

Edited by eibyyz, 01 December 2020 - 14:30.

[F1matt]

.....makes a cup of tea, grabs a digestive, sits in the comfy arm chair and waits for the blue touch paper to be lit... have I missed anything yet?   

[balage06]

Everyone's success can be easily undermined. But if a start to argue against Fangio with things like how the talent pool was uncomparably smaller back then, or that he was driving cars at slower pace than today's touring cars, everyone would shout blasphemy.

[eibyyz]

I agree with Ivanhoe here that this will not end well.

 

However, it is a bit Lancia in Gr.A rallying over it. They dominated rallying during the early Gr.A years, but pulled out when costs got high, but also due to the fact that there was no "wow! Look at how great this car is!" when they won. Instead all it ended up with was "It was a rally last weekend and Lancia won, of course... But did you see the new Toyota??". They felt like the good PR they got for winning was falling due to them winning too much.

 

I recall the 1973 Can-Am season, which killed that series.

[Atreiu]

Haters gonna...

 

2008 - WDC without the fastest car and after being shafted by the FIA left, right and center - others got a lot of credit for underdog titles, or titles in non dominant cars.

2014 and 2015 - WDCs against very competitive and resilient teammate - Prost used to get a lot of credit for beating WDCs en route to his titles...

2017 and 2018 - WDCs against another multi WDC driving a very competitive car - they are very similar to Schumacher's 1995 title, but he gets none of the credit because people are bent in their biases.

2019 and 2020 - dominant WDCs in dominant car while clearly stamping his authority over the field - Schumacher winning dominantly was confirmation of GOATness while for Lewis it is nothing but a lack of rivals.

 

People have their biases against Lewis and will never let them go.

Edited by Atreiu, 01 December 2020 - 14:34.

[flingsofdeon]

To stir things up - yes, I agree - the numbers get to the point ala Schumacher where, because of the dominance of Mercedes 2014-til now, the results lose a bit of meaning.

If he had been up against even a Rosberg throughout, let alone a Max or Alonso in the other car, the numbers, though undoubtedly less in some areas, would have more meaning to the switched-on, open-minded fan.

Still - his retirement and future Rights / opportunities will be helped by being “8/9/10 time Champion”.

I hope for his own legacy he hangs around in 2022 and has the chance to come out on top in a really close set of championship fights - that, for his legacy, would add extra weight.

No doubt he’s an all-time great, but the numbers are just a bit silly given his insanely good career move.

[Spyker]

Legacy is interesting, because it's all about perception. Perceptions are biased, and people will remember Hamilton based on their own biases.

 

That being said, Hamilton's legacy will probably be strengthened by what he has done outside of F1, and for bringing in a different audience to F1. Which he has been able to do because of how successful he is.

 

Plus, I think he'll care more about what he was able to do to progress the sport as opposed to what people think of his achievements.

[FortiFord]

Even before Lewis joined Mercedes, it was clear that he was a special talent. I think too much weight is attached to statistics in F1. 

[Risil]

Apologies, but we don't need another "Here's why Lewis isn't as great as you think" thread.