35 replies to this topic

[Ben1445]

Ok so some of us may remember 'Electric GT Holdings' and their plan to launch with converted Tesla racing cars in 2017/18 which... did not happen. They were at one point backed by the FIA with a licence to be the Electric Production Car Series (EPCS). It somewhat seems they have lost confidence in this initiative. 
 
According to Sportscar365, the FIA is seeking a promoter for a new set of electric GT regulations which were approved by the World Motorsport Council and named (unimaginatively) FIA Electric GT. The plan is for cars to more or less match current GT3 performance levels. More details: 
 

Each “main race” would be 40 minutes in length and require cars to complete at least one mandatory recharging pit stop, utilizing a fast-charging system aimed to restore up to 60 percent of the battery power within three to four minutes.
[...]

The EGT platform features “many existing technologies” carried over from GT3 in order to keep development costs low, although with the target of introducing rapid recharging, which would be an “integral” part of each event [...]

Sportscar365 understands that a number of manufacturers, including Porsche and Audi, have shown early interest in the proposed championship, which is unrelated to Electric GT Holding’s Tesla-based production series that has faced a number of failed launches.

Bentley were also saying recently that an electric GT category would be of interest to them. 

 

I think something like this is going to be inevitable eventually, though the path so far has not been plain sailing. Thought a separate thread on these new development was warranted. 

 

 

[Ben1445]

Here's the entry in the FIA WMSC decisions from 16th December on the subject: 

 

FIA GT Commission 

The Technical Regulations for a new class of vehicle, FIA Electric GT, have been approved.

The World Council members were given an update regarding the Call for an Expression of Interest that was launched for the promotion of an FIA Electric GT competition, following the previous WMSC meeting in October, with the aim of finalising a decision at the beginning of 2021.

 

(https://www.fia.com/...l-decisions-20)

[balage06]

For some reason I thought SRO was already working on something similar. But turns out Ratel just implied this as a future opportunity a few times.

[Ben1445]

And a tender document regarding the supply of battery cells to the championship between 2023 and 2025 is on the FIA's tender portal and reveals more information: 
 
"The FIA is launching an Invitation to Tender (ITT) to select an exclusive supplier of automotive battery cells (motorsport application). The cell supplier will deliver cells to the Manufacturers that will use them to build a Battery Energy Storage system for the FIA E GT Championship."
 
Target specifications are: 
- Four wheel drive, 2-4 ePowertrains acting as motor-generators
- Target weight 1450kg
- 425kW race power (570hp) 

- 700kW regen 

- 83kWh usable energy 

- Standard charing power up to 350kW, fast charge power up to 700kW

- Fast charging time up to 5 minutes  

[Ben1445]

A little bit of number crunching on what those charging pit stop figures mean: 

 

Modern EV energy consumption per mile can typically range from a little over 300Wh/mile down to about 250Wh/mile for the best performing vehicles. 

 

A 700kW recharging stop lasting 4 minutes puts in 46.6kWh of energy. That's enough to travel about 150-185 miles of regular road driving using today's typical EV energy consumption figures. 

[Vielleicht]

Well that has grabbed my attention pretty quickly.

 

That mid-race recharging stop plan is a slightly scaled up version of what Formula E will be doing around the same time, so that makes sense.

 

Offering a battery cell tender which leaves the opportunity for manufacturers to engineer how those cells are arranged within a vehicle-specific battery pack is the real big news.

 

Question remaing for me would be what sort of venues they plan to race these on. I'd assume the 'traditional' venues would make the most sense. I'd also also ask whether they plan to run this with BoP in a similar way to GT3? I guess that would make a lot of sense as well. 

Edited by Vielleicht, 17 December 2020 - 17:34.

[TennisUK]

Who is going to enter this? There aren’t many suitable cars. Porsche Taycan and Audi eTron GT (which are the same car...) I guess - but are there any other cars in this class?

Or would this just be a silhouette thing, or an almost silhouette thing like TCR? I doubt either of those would be of much interest to me. But it may also be a GT3 style series for electric cars would be quite ridiculously expensive.

Edited by TennisUK, 17 December 2020 - 17:46.

[juicy sushi]

Well, it's a bit like Formula E, but with GT weight levels rather than open-wheel weight levels.  I think it'd have to be a silhouette series, but it is promising.  I do wonder about how much this could cannibalize Formula E, but that would also depend on how well the series was run.

[Ben1445]

Who is going to enter this? There aren’t many suitable cars. Porsche Taycan and Audi eTron GT (which are the same car...) I guess - but are there any other cars in this class?

In 2021 we should see BMW's i4 and Jaguar's new XJ which would both probably be considered to be in the right class. In 2022 Mercedes Benz's EQS should enter the market. Bentley will have an EV saloon with a planned launch in 2025. 
 
We will surely see more GT EVs over the next five years or so, and the Sportscar365 article says this class is hoped to start in 2023 with at least two manufactures and four by the third season in 2025.

Edited by Ben1445, 17 December 2020 - 18:14.

[Ben1445]

Haven't found any hard info on how things would work with the chassis yet, but there's no mention of silhouettes. 
 
The tender document says "the packaging of the batteries to be left open to allow each manufacturer to determine their best location and fitment within their vehicle" which certainly doesn't indicate a common chassis. 
 
It's possible that it maybe permitted to use an existing GT3 chassis retrofitted with a manufacturer's own e-powertrain and battery pack for the first homologation cycle (I'm speculating heavily there), but I would have thought that the long term plan would be to have racing versions of the actual EVs themselves. That should be easily feasible for four or more manufacturers by 2025. 

Edited by Ben1445, 17 December 2020 - 18:28.

[Ben1445]

Ok so some of us may remember 'Electric GT Holdings' and their plan to launch with converted Tesla racing cars in 2017/18 which... did not happen. They were at one point backed by the FIA with a licence to be the Electric Production Car Series (EPCS). It somewhat seems they have lost confidence in this initiative. 

 

On the other hand, EGT still seem to think that their series has the potential to start in 2022 and would like to open up to more manufacturers from the first season. 

https://www.e-formel...-2022-6232.html [German]

 

Gemmel says that Tesla's improved cooling system in the upcoming Model S Plaid solves most of the issues that EGT experienced so publicly with their Model S P100D demo car in front of journalists in Barcelona. 

 

But they also still need €15m investment which still hasn't arrived. 

[Ben1445]

News! 
 
FIA Launches New Electric GT Category With Manufacturer Target | https://the-race.com...acturer-target/

 

 

 

[Ben1445]

FIA website announcement | https://www.fia.com/...ric-gt-category

 

Some details: 

• Aim is to match current GT3 performance
• 430kW (575bhp)
• SAFT Total have been chosen as the battery cell supplier, but the rest of the battery system engineering will be open (this is different from FE's set up)
• Conversion of existing GT3 cars will be possible
• Fast charge pit-stops at 700kW to recharge 60% of battery within a few minutes 

Edited by Ben1445, 21 April 2021 - 10:31.

[Ben1445]

Edited by Ben1445, 21 April 2021 - 10:30.

[Vielleicht]

This actually sounds like quite a compelling proposal. I like that it is open to both road EVs and retrofit GT3s. Allowing torque-vectoring sounds like a bold move.

 

Freedom for pack-level battery design is a major point here which sets it apart from the other EV categories. Having Saft provide the battery cells is both broadly reflective of the current state of the industry and a sensible cost saving measure. If fast-charge pitstops become routine (in this as in FE Gen3) it could be the beginnings of a step change in electric motorsport.

 

All that remains to be seen is who the promotor will be. It's not too controversial to say that there has been a common trend for EV series promotors to propose whacky formats or features which then get widely panned by potential fans as being gimmicky or simply trying too hard. If I was promoting this technical model as a championship, I would be keen to take a lead in reversing that trend and make it a pure, no-fuss sprint GT class. Let the cars and the technolgy speak for themselves, because it looks like these might be capable of doing just that.

 

I say that meaning no disrespect to said other EV championships or implied suggestion that they shoud do things differently. I just think EV motorsport needs to start catering for the more 'traditional' fans as well, and this sounds like a good opportunity to do just that.

[Ben1445]

The promotor will be Discovery Group and subsidiary Eurosport Events, same group promoting Pure ETCR. 

 

https://www.fia.com/...partnership-fia

 

[Anderis]

I like the livery of that car.

[Vielleicht]

The promotor will be Discovery Group and subsidiary Eurosport Events, same group promoting Pure ETCR. 

 

https://www.fia.com/...partnership-fia

Hmm, not sure exactly how I feel about that since Pure ETCR is one of those more whacky race format/event set up approaches. But then Pure ETCR's base tehcnical kit isn't build for rapid charging and the press release still says 45 minnute races.

 

I actually quite like the idea of LED info screens like that around the pit boxes whilst cars are on charge. Suitably futuristic looking yet also serving an actual purpose for spectators.

 

Can't wait to hear more about this.

[Ben1445]

Appears that BMW is the first manufacturer to show interest: 
 
https://www.motorspo...mula-e/6532503/
 

Flasch stated that BMW is "very interested" in the FIA's eGT championship announced last month.

"We have been in discussions with the FIA," he said. "If this series is going to be fast enough, spectacular, then we are going to be in it. [But] we are not pushing just because it is electric: it has to make sense for the fan."

The easiest path for them would be to use the new M4 GT3 base as the donor chassis, convert it to EV and then homologate it as an i4.

Edited by Ben1445, 06 June 2021 - 15:50.

[r4mses]

So they'll again push for expensive regs none acutally wants, fck it up and then leave?

[Ben1445]

That would be very much in the BMW way... 

 

Though something makes me think this series would end up being more of a customer racing candidate. We have yet to get to the bottom of whether this would go the GT3 route of customers teams and BoP or the Class 1 DTM route of open competition and semi-works teams. 

Edited by Ben1445, 06 June 2021 - 15:59.

[Ben1445]

Also, what are DTM planning to do with their 'DTM Electric' project? 

[Vielleicht]

I was under the impression that DTM Electric would be a spec support event upon launch, sort of a way to learn about and hone the product and get everyone used to it before any thought about launching it as anything major.

[Ben1445]

Sportscar365 reporting on new comments from BMW about eGT: https://sportscar365...tric-gt-launch/
 

While admitting that the German brand is “seriously looking” at the new formula, particularly amid its exit from the ABB FIA Formula E World Championship at the end of this season, Krack indicated its participation would be unlikely at least in time for the first planned season in less than 24 months’ time.

“We are part of these meetings,” said Krack. “But this is something in general, a manufacturer [like] BMW is present in all of these groups, even if you are not participating.

“I think it’s also important to know and understand what’s going on and what could be future programs.

“Electric GT is interesting. The timeline is very ambitious I think but it’s something we’re looking at seriously.”

When asked if a potential program would fall under the M brand or utilize BMW’s i nomenclature, Krack admitted it’s a “difficult question to answer.”

BMW’s Formula E program falls under the i brand although the manufacturer recently introduced the BMW i4M50 (pictured above) that incorporates both brands.

“M will go electric anyways as well,” Krack said. “There will be a day where M is electric and then there’s no reason why we have to choose another brand than M

[BRG]

I would be keen to take a lead in reversing that trend and make it a pure, no-fuss sprint GT class. Let the cars and the technology speak for themselves, because it looks like these might be capable of doing just that.

Oh Lord, yes, yes, yes.  Enough with the gimmicks.

 

I like the livery of that car.

No accounting for tastes...

[Ben1445]

Update from the FIA WMSC decisions: https://www.fia.com/...il-decisions-22

 

Modifications to the FIA Electric GT Homologation Regulations were approved, removing the minimum selling price for the road-going models that the race cars are set to be derived from.

Edited by Ben1445, 08 July 2021 - 18:42.

[BRG]

   The minimum selling price?  Were they worried that Skoda might  enter with their e-Citigo?  But now they have decided it wouldn't be a problem after all?

[Ben1445]

Yeah I don’t know either - I have the exact same questions as you about that one

[Ben1445]

This isn't directly related to the proposed FIA eGT Championship but it does draw a fairly significant parallel. 
 
Porsche have extended their Mission R concept from last year into what they call the 718 Cayman GT4 ePerformance. 
https://presse.porsc...motorsport-news
 

The Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 ePerformance serves as a test vehicle. Like the Mission R, the all-wheel-drive racer uses the chassis of the proven 718 Cayman GT4 Clubsport model. The entire electric motor and battery technology also comes from the IAA conceptual study, which in qualification mode translates to a maximum output of 735 kW (1,000 PS) and more. In simulated racing, a steady 450 kW (612 PS) is available for 30 minutes, i.e. the duration of a Carrera Cup race. In terms of lap times and top speed, the 718 Cayman GT4 ePerformance is on par with the performance of the current 992-generation 911 GT3 Cup.

[Ben1445]

[Ben1445]

Little update here on Audi Sport customer racing's future, which had been in doubt for the period after the next GT3/TCR homolgation cycles, including reference to Electric GT 
 
Audi Sport’s Future is Secure Through “At Least” 2024
https://sportscar365...-at-least-2024/
 

Audi Expects to “Eventually” Join Electric GT

With Audi increasingly focusing on electric mobility, that potentially opens the door for Audi Sport to compete in the planned FIA Electric GT Championship.

The new series was announced last year ahead of a prospective 2023 debut, but no manufacturers have officially committed yet with some understood to be concerned about development costs.

While Audi has not outright confirmed a program for the championship, Reinke said it is something the company could look at.

“Eventually, for sure,” Reinke said when asked if Audi could enter the series.

“The question is the pace [of electrification]. Eventually we will all have to think of that, but we have to see the pace.

 

Seems doubtful that we'd see this in 2023 at the moment. Perhaps not so surprising that with eGT's offer of battery back development using standard cells from SAFT there has been cause for concern about development costs, but it also suggests some pessimism about potential audiences straight out of the gates. 

 

I also don't think we've had any firm word on whether this would be built around the model of customer GT3 racing with BoP or if it would be more of an open championship in which teams compete to build the best motors, battery packs and control systems. 

 

Personally, I also can't say I'm convinced with the choice of Discovery Group/Eurosport Events as a promotor. Their promotion of ETCR appears to have been pretty weak from my viewpoint. 

[LolaB0860]

i also don't think we've had any firm word on whether this would be built around the model of customer GT3 racing with BoP or if it would be more of an open championship in which teams compete to build the best motors, battery packs and control systems.

Had this series been launched 10 years ago there could have still been a small glimmer of hope for the latter, but no, I'm sure it'll be 100% BoP championship. Where the electric side is there, I mean they will be electric GT cars with open formula, but other than that the technology really does no matter at all, just as it does not on GT3/GT4/GTE/Hypercar/LMDH/TCR etc. At least in Formula E there is no BoP even though most of the stuff in the cars is spec...

Edited by LolaB0860, 05 June 2022 - 14:23.

[Ben1445]

Looks like these particular eGT regulations have stalled a little, if adjacent reporting from Sportscar365 is accurate: 
 
Targa Florio to Feature on GTX World Tour

SRO is also in dialogue with the FIA on the proposed use of common N-EGT regulations, which could serve as the basis for the GTX World Tour.

N-EGT differs from the proposed FIA Electric GT Championship, which is believed to have been postponed or entirely called off.

 
GTX World Tour being SRO's grand idea for electric GT events, featuring a new competition format as some sort of a mix of closed-circuit raceevents and what looks like open-road efficiency events to link them up in a sort of Rally meets Tour de France style ... something? Featuring the name and roads of the infamous Targa Florio perhaps, owing to a deal between SRO and the Automobile Club d’Italia. 
 
In any case, Audi is looking to support such plans...
 
Audi Sport Giving “Full Support” to GTX World Tour
https://sportscar365.com/ev-racing/audi-sport-giving-full-sport-to-gtx-world-tour/
 

Reinke said they would look to modify its road-going Audi RS e-tron GT, with the 440 kW (590 horsepower) four-door performance EV being the most suitable model in its current lineup.

While initially targeted for concept EVs, SRO founder and CEO Stephane Ratel said they’ve evolved the competition to primarily be focused on existing production-based machinery.

Audi could be prepared to roll out a race-prepped version of the e-tron GT by as early as next year according to Reinke. [...]

“It would be very close to a road car. For me it would be similar as we define our current GT4 from the R8 which is pretty close on the drivetrain, electronics and so-forth to the road car.

[Ben1445]

So basically there's maybe something of a discussion behind the scenes about two different rulesets?

 

FIA eGT had the idea of spec battery cells but arranged how you like into a vehicle - many of which could be ex-combusiton GT3 chassis by the sounds of it. 

 

N-EGT seems to be based a little more around the idea of simply race-prepping production EVs, maybe a little more aligned with GT4 rather than GT3. 

[Ben1445]

First thing approaching any kind of news on this is in the FIA sustainable energies roadmap (itself quite interesting) shows the start date as being pushed back to 2026. 

 

There's also a mention of 'Elect Sport V' as some kind of EV championship from 2024 but zero clue what that could be. 

 

[highdownforce]

First thing approaching any kind of news on this is in the FIA sustainable energies roadmap (itself quite interesting) shows the start date as being pushed back to 2026.

There's also a mention of 'Elect Sport V' as some kind of EV championship from 2024 but zero clue what that could be.

We need an updated version