251 replies to this topic

[Cyanide]

https://www.autospor...o-make-progress

 

Given that this is a trending subject in other threads, and Wolff's still skeptical take on Russell's performances, I thought this would be an interesting topic. Personally, I believe too much emphasis is being placed on George's crash in Imola, and that weaker drivers who made plenty of mistakes were promoted to top seats in the past. Then there is the argument that his race pace on Sundays is rather inconsistent, but I see that more of a car limitation than a driver limitation: the Williams might be a better qualifying car than a race car, there are plenty of examples of similar cars out there. As a side note, there is a solid article by The Race, evaluating his performance that gives a bit of balance to the criticism: https://the-race.com...-or-a-weakness/

 

The question is would an additional year at Williams do him any good? Or has he already earned that spot at the very top?

Edited by Cyanide, 19 January 2021 - 10:08.

[PlayboyRacer]

No he's certainly ready for the promotion.

Is he ready to outright beat Bottas and carry Mercedes to the World Championships in 2021? I'm very skeptical on that part.

[Marklar]

Do I think that his performances were that amazing that he should get the best car? No

Do I think he would do significantly worse than Bottas? No

Do I think that he is the coming best driver of this generation and could straight away replace Lewis? No

Do I think a 3rd year at Williams would be good for him? No

I would have promoted him in 2021 if it was possible and then he either beats Lewis and is the future or he develops into a #2 and then they hire later Max for Lewis. But can still do it in 2022 I guess.

I dont quite agree with the way the question is asked, technically speaking only the two best drivers have done enough to get the best seat, which is why I answered Max.

Edited by Marklar, 19 January 2021 - 09:37.

[derstatic]

I'd say he's ready. Even if Sakhir was just one race it was quite a remarkable performance. Getting so close to Bottas, who beats Hamilton on Saturdays 1/3 in an unfamiliar car, cramped in the cockpit with a size too small boots and then comfortably out-racing everyone for half of the race is a pretty good achievment. He has still not been outqualified by a regular Williams team-mate in 2 seasons starting this trend as a rookie is pretty good too. 

 

Another year at the back is not likely to develop him much more. Let's use Leclerc as an example. One year at Sauber (or really 3 races at Sauber) was what he needed to get into the groove. Promotion to Ferrari and out-performing a 4-time WDC. If  the Merc lineup in 2021 is Bottas/Russell actually my money would be on Russell. Close, but I think he could pull it off. 

[Clatter]

He has had one chance in a car that gave him a chance to really showcase himself, and he smashed it. Only Mercedes mistakes prevented his first win. I think he has shown he is worthy of promotion, but as Bottas replacement. If Wolff is really going to dwell on that one error then its time to get a new manager.

Edited by Clatter, 19 January 2021 - 09:44.

[Anja]

I certainly don't think there's much more for him to learn at the back of the field. In a Mercedes, with the new level of pressure, he might make some mistakes at first and lose even to Bottas over a season but they have to think about the future here. After Sakhir there can be no more doubt he's a great talent, they can't just keep him at Williams forever. A year in a midfield team would be perfect but it's a bit too late for that now. 

Edited by Anja, 19 January 2021 - 09:53.

[Risil]

He's ready; any doubts about that were removed at Sakhir where he was the quickest driver out there and should have won. Russell isn't the finished article, but who spends two years in F1 driving for a backmarker team and emerges as a flawless and entirely resilient athlete?

 

"Done enough" to race for the silver team is sort of beside the point, Mercedes has signed a contract with Bottas for 2021 and short of the kind of clear and disastrous underperformance that would trigger an escape clause, they should honour it.

[Risil]

As for the poll, why on earth is there an option for Russell to replace Hamilton? Why would you change your quickest driver? Why would you change the quickest driver?

[shure]

I'll add my voice to those saying the questions are a bit limiting.

 

I personally don't believe any driver needs to serve time elsewhere before joining a top team.  If they don't show their potential at the start, then as far as I'm concerned they never will.  it was never necessary to serve a long apprenticeship in the past and I don't see why it's needed now.

 

As far as Russell deserving a promotion, based on his eligibility being a Merc junior driver then I don't see why not.  He's as good a candidate as any they've had I guess and if they don't promote him you'd have to wonder what exactly their program is for.  I think Toto's talking rubbish by saying he needs a 3rd year at Williams and is basically just making excuses for his lack of decision making.

 

In short, he's shown he's quick, but we'll never know how good he'll be at the front until he 's put in a car at the front.  He didn't disgrace himself when he got the opportunity and certainly didn't look worse than Bottas, so I can't think of a good reason why not

[P123]

Yes, he'll be there in 2022, which was always the plan otherwise Merc would not have allowed him to sign a 3 year deal with Williams.

[Cyanide]

Edited the poll as per popular demand. 

Edited by Cyanide, 19 January 2021 - 10:08.

[Imperial]

He is an F1 driver, so yes.

[Burai]

We already know Mercedes wanted George for this year but Frank Williams said no. They know he's ready.

 

I'm sure Toto's comments are less a reflection on Russell and more him trying to not destabilise Bottas for, miracle performance not withstanding, his final season with Mercedes. They don't want him doing a Vettel.

[PhilArny80]

He should have been promoted this year to partner Lewis (if/when he signs). Another year at Williams seems a waste.

 

Is he good enough to lead a top tier team? Not sure yet but that will only be answered when he moves to a better team.

 

It will be very frustrating if Lewis coasts to another title next year with no challenge from Bottas, you might as well have Russell in the team to properly evaluate him, then if he isn't good enough, go for Max.

[Widefoot2]

He has had one chance in a car that gave him a chance to really showcase himself, and he smashed it. Only Mercedes mistakes prevented his first win. I think he has shown he is worthy of promotion, but as Bottas replacement. If Wolff is really going to dwell on that one error then its time to get a new manager.

Maybe rephrasing the statement that Russell "smashed it" would be in order...  

 

Little old cynical me thinks that Mercedes mistakes were akin to Ferrari's when Irvine was in the Championship hunt...

[F1matt]

Of course he is ready, Bottas is utterly useless. 

[pitlanepalpatine]

Maybe rephrasing the statement that Russell "smashed it" would be in order...  

 

I don't know, it appropriately highlights a recurring theme 

[shure]

Maybe rephrasing the statement that Russell "smashed it" would be in order...  

 

Little old cynical me thinks that Mercedes mistakes were akin to Ferrari's when Irvine was in the Championship hunt...

he did, though, didn't he?  He did a great job and was looking strong for the win but for circumstances beyond his control. Overall I'd say he impressed.  Put it this way, he looked stronger than Bottas so if Bottas is the benchmark for deserving a seat (on the basis that even as the clearly worse Merc driver he's still getting extended) then Russell has shown that he does, too

[Touchdown]

He's done enough that, as one of Mercedes' drivers, he should be replacing Bottas - whether he's done enough to prove he should have one of the two best machines on the grid is more of a debate.

 

I actually think in a strange way that he proved more finishing 9th at Sakhir than he would have had he just cruised unchallenged to the win (as he was on the way to doing) - the botched pit stop and the puncture meant he had to show resilience, fighting spirit, and overtaking skills. It was all this as much as the fact that he was quicker than Bottas that makes me think he should get the seat.

[JoshKing]

Post Lewis I don't see any reason as to why George shouldn't be a no. 1 driver. I don't mind that George is still at Williams for his third year in F1, but a fourth isn't going to do him any good. Anyways, I still think he's done enough to be at Mercedes for 2021, nevermind 2022. He might get another drive at Mercedes if Lewis or Valtteri miss a race due to Covid, and provide more proof as to why he should be there sooner rather than later. Getting points for Williams in '21 will be the icing on the cake. I'm looking forward to when he makes the Merc move, he's ready.

[noikeee]

I'm not sure he's got much better race pace than Bottas, but he's a qualifying monster, has 3 times the race spirit of Bottas, and he's 22 and will only improve. I mean it's an absolute no-brainer to put him on the car next year.

 

If Lewis retires? Then they're kinda ****ed. I'd say break the bank for Max and forcefully retire Bottas as well, but I suspect Max-Russell in the same team wouldn't go down well at all, even if Max is a couple tenths ahead, I don't see those 2 gelling together. Best course of action is let George race against Lewis and see how good he really is, before making any decisions as to who's the next lead driver.

 

As to, has George earned the very best car? Well probably not but that's not how F1 goes is it. Did Bottas earn it much more either back then? Not really.

[jstrains]

Poor Lewis. Why do not you let him get another 3 WDCs with Merc? He is always flying with that car on the track like no other

Edited by jstrains, 19 January 2021 - 10:48.

[Sterzo]

Bottas is utterly useless. 

You ain't been watching.

[NoForumForOldPole]

Sakhir race showed he can beat Bottas. In his first race for the team. In too small shoes too be able to fit into cockpit. However nay sayers want to spin it, fact is he should have won that race if not for Mercedes blunder.

He is not in the car only because of some stupid political game being played by Toto.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 19 January 2021 - 11:03.

[PayasYouRace]

I think the poll questions are a bit leading. But I think George is ready for a shot at a top team. His performance in the Mercedes at Sakhir proves that. There’s only so much one can do in the Williams the way they are now.

There’s always room for improvement, but that was true of every promising talent to grace a top car, including Max and Lewis.

[JimmyClark]

He should have been placed in a midfield car this year (and potentially next year) so he can get used to the rough and tumble of the pack, not just overtaking the odd Haas or staying ahead of Latifi. 

 

Unfortunately there weren't any places for him, given the various agreements down the teams. But I think he might have been a better placing at Aston Martin instead of Vettel - especially with the English side for marketing. 

 

But to answer the question, I believe if he did get Hamilton's seat this year for whatever reason, he could easily be WDC. In that Mercedes not being used to racing in the pack isn't exactly a detriment. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 19 January 2021 - 11:05.

[Cyanide]

I believe they should have promoted him in 2021 or already in 2020 to partner Hamilton, to see if he can replicate a Leclerc/Verstappen progression against a star teammate. Certainly would have been a lot better than two pointless years at Williams. 

 

It's quite funny of Wolff to be critical of Russell, while Bottas made a lot more mistakes last year. You simply can't justify his place in a Mercedes in 2021. 

[DeKnyff]

Of course he is ready, Bottas is utterly useless. 

No, he isn't. He is a good second driver.

[shure]

I believe they should have promoted him in 2021 or already in 2020 to partner Hamilton, to see if he can replicate a Leclerc/Verstappen progression against a star teammate. Certainly would have been a lot better than two pointless years at Williams. 

 

It's quite funny of Wolff to be critical of Russell, while Bottas made a lot more mistakes last year. You simply can't justify his place in a Mercedes in 2021. 

There is that, true.  I think it just shows that Wolff's comments are just a smokescreen

[Fastcake]

Yes. Russell should be driving for Mercedes this year, but alas contracts were already in place and Sakhir came too late. Had things happened earlier, with the new William’s management who likely would have took the money, I suspect he would have been Hamilton’s teammate already.

[Touchdown]

I think the poll questions are a bit leading. But I think George is ready for a shot at a top team. His performance in the Mercedes at Sakhir proves that. There’s only so much one can do in the Williams the way they are now.

There’s always room for improvement, but that was true of every promising talent to grace a top car, including Max and Lewis.

This.

 

Look at Lewis in 2008 (or even 2011). Look at Max in 2017. Look at Leclerc in 2019 (even to a lesser extent, 2020). Vettel in 2010.

 

Young drivers who weren't yet absolutely perfect, but clearly had what it takes. Hell, Lewis and Vettel even won titles while not yet the finished article. Russell falls into this same bracket. If he gets promoted by Mercedes, he'll make mistakes, and he won't be perfect straight away. But he's good enough to win races and championships.

[pdac]

You can look at this in two ways:

 

1. If Russell had done enough, then Mercedes would have him in the seat already, unless they are not looking for another driver right now

2. If Mercedes were looking for another driver right now, would they just be considering Russell or would they choose Verstappen (assuming that Verstappen were available)?

 

So I don't think there is an answer to the question posed because it's most likely that Mercedes have a number of future plans of which some may or may not involve Russell. A better question would be "Should the top-tier teams be considering Russell for a permanent driver role, based on his current performance and experience?".

[NixxxoN]

I think he has definitely done more than Bottas

Bottas only beat Maldonado and a semi retired Massa, and enjoyed a very competitive Williams, which was at times the second best car on the grid.

[shure]

You can look at this in two ways:

 

1. If Russell had done enough, then Mercedes would have him in the seat already, unless they are not looking for another driver right now

2. If Mercedes were looking for another driver right now, would they just be considering Russell or would they choose Verstappen (assuming that Verstappen were available)?

 

So I don't think there is an answer to the question posed because it's most likely that Mercedes have a number of future plans of which some may or may not involve Russell. A better question would be "Should the top-tier teams be considering Russell for a permanent driver role, based on his current performance and experience?".

if it's broadened to top tier teams the answers would likely be very different.  We're talking about Russell at Merc not because he's clearly the best non-established driver out there, but because he's a Merc junior who's managed by Wolff and the next logical move for him is Mercedes.  Aside from anything else, it raises the question of what the Merc junior program is even for if none of their alumni ever get a top seat.  It's kind of an open secret that he's the heir apparent, not because he's a boy genius but because of his contractual status.

 

Might be a worthwhile topic for discussion but ultimately very different scenario.

[Rurouni]

I pick Russell should replace Bottas in 2022. Assuming Hamilton is still in Merc, then it is the best outcome for Merc since Russell will have time racing with Hamilton and arguably Russell can improve more if paired with Ham vs Bottas. If Ham is out from Merc, then if they can get Max, of course they should get him and try to pair Russell with Max.

The way I see it, Russell couldn't be lesser than Bottas. At best, he can improve an become a WDC material. Bottas already have his chances. He already undergone many version changes and still can't consistently challenge Ham during the race. The good thing about Bottas is that exactly because he can't challenge Ham, thus there is more harmony in the team VS when it was during Ham - Ros pairing. Basically Bottas is an excellent no.2 driver. Fast enough to stay close to Ham and sometimes challenges Ham on his good day but at the same time won't be a real threat to Ham.

I don't know whether Russell will be a Bottas or a Hamilton, but like I've said before, I can't see him performing worse than Bottas, They really should try to pair Russell with Hamilton just for the potential for Russell to be able to improve his driving faster and hopefully can challenge Ham in the process.

Edited by Rurouni, 19 January 2021 - 12:46.

[Izzyeviel]

Toto's argument is that Hamilton would never be a top driver because of his Canada mishap in 07. Every driver makes a dumbass mistake from time to time. 

[Astandahl]

I mean he literally destroyed Bottas (not that he is a particularly high benchmark tbf) despite trying the car for the first time

 

Bottas was so desperate during the race that he started abusing kerbs.

Edited by Astandahl, 19 January 2021 - 12:58.

[Paco]

No

[Spillage]

Yes. Russell showed enormous potential in Bahrain and apart from that has spent two seasons absolutelu smashing his teammates. He deserves a full-time Mercedes seat. Even if it doesn't work out he's a much more amibitous choice than Bottas, who I really don't think will ever be WDC.

[pdac]

... it raises the question of what the Merc junior program is even for ...

 

Same as "reserve drivers" - what are they for?

 

I guess the junior program is more about pushing money into the lower-levels of the sport so that they, too, becomes unaffordable to the masses.

[Paco]

Yes. Russell showed enormous potential in Bahrain and apart from that has spent two seasons absolutelu smashing his teammates. He deserves a full-time Mercedes seat. Even if it doesn't work out he's a much more amibitous choice than Bottas, who I really don't think will ever be WDC.

Teammates that are of questionable caliber to make judgement on Russell’s ability. Sorry... out qualifying 2019 Kubica (not Kubica preinjury) and Latifi isn’t saying much. Sorry, needs to be paired with a better driver for a season to understand what he has in the tank. He needs to move up into mid grid like a AT or Renault and race against a Gasly or Ocon or at Alfa against Kimi to get a better judgement.

Not his fault except that he signed for Toto for 10years but it is what it is. Maybe Toto can get in Renault if Ocon isn’t able to keep up to Fernando or maybe into Aston Martin if Seb fizzles or if Daddy there gets fed of Lance Jr if Seb clobbers him...

Then we can see what is George Russell... right now it’s all unknowns.

Edited by Paco, 20 January 2021 - 00:51.

[Cyanide]

Teammates that are of questionable caliber to make judgement on Russell’s ability. Sorry... out qualifying 2019 Kubica (not Kubica preinjury) and Latifi isn’t saying much. Sorry, needs to be paired with a better driver for a season tobibderstand what he has in the tank. He needs to move up into mid grid like a AT or Renault and race against a Gasly or Ocon or at Alfa against Kimi to get a better judgement.

Not his fault except that he signed for Toto for 10years but it is what it is. Maybe Toto can get in Renault if Ocon isn’t able to keep up to Fernando or maybe into Aston Martin if Seb fizzles or if Daddy there gets fed of Lance Jr if Seb clobbers him...

Then we can see what is George Russell... right now it’s all unknowns.

 

Leclerc had Ericsson as a teammate in 2018...hardly a great reference point as well. 

 

It's likely fan obsession to rely solely on teammate comparisons, teams have loads of other data we have no clue about. 

 

And there's no point wasting time measuring against Kimi or Alonso, when they can measure him against the current best in the field. 

Edited by Cyanide, 19 January 2021 - 14:30.

[Marklar]

Good to know that the majority want to keep Bottas for a sixth season judging by the poll

It misses a third option btw, the one where Bottas gets retained and Max hired, which is what I would do, at least if I greatly value contiuity and if I want a guaranteed high benchmark. Then I would replace Bottas in 2023 with Russell. That is I think the scenario where he could be slightly screwed timing wise.

Edited by Marklar, 19 January 2021 - 14:33.

[Cyanide]

Good to know that the majority want to keep Bottas for a sixth season judging by the poll

It misses a third option btw, the one where Bottas gets retained and Max hired, which is what I would do, at least if I greatly value contiuity and if I want a guaranteed high benchmark. Then I would replace Bottas in 2023 with Russell. That is I think the scenario where he could be slightly screwed timing wise.

 

I don't even want to imagine a world where Bottas retains his seat in 2022. They can surely kiss Russell goodbye if that happens. 

[Marklar]

I don't even want to imagine a world where Bottas retains his seat in 2022. They can surely kiss Russell goodbye if that happens.

Well, no problem if they get Max instead, that's the scenario we are talking about?

I agree that it would be bad to retain Bottas alongside Lewis in 2022, unless they have already secured Max/Leclerc for later.

[cpbell]

He's ready; any doubts about that were removed at Sakhir where he was the quickest driver out there and should have won. Russell isn't the finished article, but who spends two years in F1 driving for a backmarker team and emerges as a flawless and entirely resilient athlete?

 

"Done enough" to race for the silver team is sort of beside the point, Mercedes has signed a contract with Bottas for 2021 and short of the kind of clear and disastrous underperformance that would trigger an escape clause, they should honour it.

IMO, Russell should be in the second Stroll Racing Aston Martin this year.  I'm not sure he's yet at Mercedes standard, but I really don't see how another year at Williams alongside Latifi is going to help him improve or demonstrate that he is at Mercedes level - it's really more of a holding position.

[Cyanide]

Well, no problem if they get Max instead, that's the scenario we are talking about?

I agree that it would be bad to retain Bottas alongside Lewis in 2022, unless they have already secured Max/Leclerc for later.

 

Getting Max and keeping Bottas for 2022 would ensure a certain degree of continuity, but Toto would absolutely demolish his relationship with Russell and risk losing him completely. 

Edited by Cyanide, 19 January 2021 - 15:47.

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t see Bottas’ continuity being that valuable, especially if the potential lineup is Max and George. Plus, George already brings an element of continuity. It’s not like the Sakhir race was the only time he’s worked with the team and driven their cars.

[cpbell]

No

Quel surprise!

[pitlanepalpatine]

Good to know that the majority want to keep Bottas for a sixth season judging by the poll

It misses a third option btw, the one where Bottas gets retained and Max hired, which is what I would do, at least if I greatly value contiuity and if I want a guaranteed high benchmark. Then I would replace Bottas in 2023 with Russell. That is I think the scenario where he could be slightly screwed timing wise.

 

you're not the only one.