149 replies to this topic

[Boing 2]

'Alonso shafted his own career, he only has himself to blame for his lack of success' is how the story is often reported but I beg to differ, I don't think anything he did affected the number of titles he currently has, that was down to factors largely outside his control.

 

Failure 1 - McLaren: Lets say Fernando didn't pull the pin at McLaren and remained there long term, would he have racked up more titles? given that Hamilton matched him for points in his first season and given how slim a margin he won the title by in 08 its a safe assumption that he and Alonso would have tripped each other up in 08, taken wins off each other and let Massa win. Maybe having a strong second driver would have taken results from Massa too and weakened his score but I think the former was the more logical assumption. Sinbce 08 McLaren has never really fought for a title again so remaining there long term would have changed nothing.

 

Failure 2 - Renault: Crashgate, was he involved? did he know? did it harm his rep? well, as the biggest name in the sport hired him a year later it's safe to say it doesn't matter and had no impact on his career.

 

Failure 3 - Ferrari: If he hadn't gotten so 'political' he'd still be there today.....so what? 2010 and 2012 remain Ferrari's closest title challenges to date, in the 6 years since he left they've never been as competitive and never gotten close to a title, staying longer would have reaped nothing.

 

Failure 4 - Post Ferrari wilderness: 'If he wasn't so political he might have gotten a more competitive seat after leaving Ferrari' ...............like what? by 2015 Red Bull were fully committed to only using internal talent and Mercedes had a tight and relatively stable driver line up with no need for the friction that came with 2 number ones, sure he might have been able to grab a Williams seat if he offered to drive for nothing but given their trajectory it still would have gained him nothing in the way of titles.

 

Failure 5 - Not Being Psychic: 'He should've taken the Red Bull seat in 07!'  given the option of a drinks company with a customer engine and no success or Renault, a manufacturer team  that had just given him 2 titles one short year ago who would have gone for the Red Bull seat? and again when Ferrari, the biggest and best funded team who had just come off a 5 year run of titles and had taken the 07 title offer you a drive would you think it logical to sign for Red Bull then? unless you have a history of head injuries the answer is 'No'.  Maybe..........maybe if he'd stayed at McLaren and formed a Mercedes relationship he may have been offered the seat instead of Lewis then again you'd have to assume they would have been very closely matched at McLaren and Hamilton would have come with a lower price and greater perceived longevity so he probably still would've got the seat.

 

No, Alonso's choices and behaviour didn't screw his career, what did that was the fact that for 65% of his career F1 was dominated by two teams neither of which he drove for. That's it beyond the normal Could've - Would've - Should've of racing (coming within 5 points of a title 3 times, reliability/getting taken out on competitive years etc) in terms of his off track behaviour nothing he did scuppered his career.

Edited by Boing 2, 19 January 2021 - 12:16.

[NixxxoN]

For me Alonso's big failure in his career by far is to have left a very competitive Renault.

After becoming champion with them he thought he could go and win elsewhere no problem, and no, in F1 you have to be in the right place at the right time. Also you need to have the right environment for you to succeed, no matter how good you are as a driver.

He should have remained at Renault for more years even if they stopped being so much competitive, for the sake of loyalty IMO

[shure]

I can see this thread ending in tears....

 

If things hadn't ended so acrimoniously at McLaren I think his career would have unfolded very differently.  He may have won 2008, for example.  Lewis certainly made enough mistakes that year to give him the opportunity.  And McLaren had some pretty strong cars - the points difference in 2010 was pretty marginal and luck played a part in how the year unfolded, particularly for McLaren.  It wouldn't have taken much for a different result.  Same for 2012 (assuming he was still there that long) where you'd have to imagine he wouldn't have had Jenson's issues in the first half..

 

It would have been very different, that's about the only thing you can say.

[Marklar]

Well, I disagree and I love Fred.

Had he kept cool in 2007 he would have beaten Lewis, then in 2008 he would easily won the title too: Lewis drove far worse there then in 2007, and Massa also didnt perform well.

What then would have happened is pure speculation (as pointed out above maybe he'd also won 2010/12, but about equal chances as at Ferrari, so skip), but I reckon then Lewis wouldnt have had the same status as he had in 2012 and Nando wouldnt've been a persona non grata at Merc...

Agree on the rest though

Edited by Marklar, 19 January 2021 - 12:28.

[Risil]

Alonso's behaviour in 2007 made him a much bigger risk than he needed to be for team managers. He remained attractive to teams who felt like they needed a kick up the arse, but if your mindset is "why change a winning formula?", Fernando is an obvious no-go. IMO.

[Boing 2]

As I say the 2010/2012 titles were about the normal ups and downs of racing, had he not gotten taken out at Spa or Suzuka in 2012 he would've taken it but I'm discussing his 'political' reputation, the idea that his out of car behaviour has snookered his career. I don't think Lewis would have dropped off on 08 had he been up against Alonso, I think he registered Kovalinen as a non-threat and eased off. As for staying at Renault, they ended 07 with 51 points against Ferrari's 204...... Renault at that time weren't on a mega budget from what I can remember so his salary would've suffered staying there.

[Boing 2]

Alonso's behaviour in 2007 made him a much bigger risk than he needed to be for team managers. He remained attractive to teams who felt like they needed a kick up the arse, but if your mindset is "why change a winning formula?", Fernando is an obvious no-go. IMO.

OK but name me a season where that stopped him getting a title winning car where otherwise it would have been officered?

[Baddoer]

For me Alonso's big failure in his career by far is to have left a very competitive Renault.

After becoming champion with them he thought he could go and win elsewhere no problem, and no, in F1 you have to be in the right place at the right time. Also you need to have the right environment for you to succeed, no matter how good you are as a driver.

He should have remained at Renault for more years even if they stopped being so much competitive, for the sake of loyalty IMO

The only outcome of that is 8th title for Hamilton which makes no difference for Alonso himself.

[Chunkinator]

Would Mercedes have even fully committed to F1 in 2010 (with their own team) if the McLaren relationship wasn't ruined in 2007?

Edited by Chunkinator, 19 January 2021 - 12:42.

[NixxxoN]

The only outcome of that is 8th title for Hamilton which makes no difference for Alonso himself.

You think that if Alonso hadn't joined McLaren in 2007, Hamilton would have won the title that year?
Sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me

[Boing 2]

Would Mercedes have even fully committed to F1 in 2010 (with their own team) if the McLaren relationship wasn't ruined in 2007?

Good question but I think the fact that had been at McLaren for about sixteen years at that point and only had 3 drivers titles to show for it had more to do with them leaving. By 2010 I think 07 was largely forgotten about.

[DeKnyff]

Alonso made a huge mistake in his career, which defined all his subsequent moves: to lose his cool in 2007 and specifically, to block Lewis Hamilton at the 2007 Hungarian GP. Had he not done it, he probably wouldn't have needed to overdrive the car in Japan and anyway, in hindsight we know he would probably have won the 2007 WDC, which would have put him in a very different position, maybe he could have stayed one more year at McLaren and, who knows, he could have won once again in 2008 (not a very good year by Lewis standards, even if won the Championship).

 

But he quit McLaren, he was obliged to go back to Renault, which meant Singapore and a wasted year in 2009. Then, the move to Ferrari was a no-brainer.

[Marklar]

You think that if Alonso hadn't joined McLaren in 2007, Hamilton would have won the title that year?
Sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me

why not? do you really buy the 6 tenths meme or what?

[NixxxoN]

why not? do you really buy the 6 tenths meme or what?

 

It's not funny.
I dont know how many tenths it was but Alonso definitely contributed a lot to make the car improve.

Also Hamilton himself learnt a hell of a lot from Alonso as a driver (Hamilton himself admitted that)
If Alonso have remained at Renault in 2007, we would've much likely seen a dominant Ferrari with McLaren, BMW Sauber and Renault behind fighting to be best of the rest.

[CoolBreeze]

no matter who you are, attitude is extremely important in life.

[Marklar]

It's not funny.
I dont know how many tenths it was but Alonso definitely contributed a lot to make the car improve.
Also Hamilton himself learnt a hell of a lot from Alonso as a driver (Hamilton himself admitted that)
If Alonso have remained at Renault in 2007, we would've much likely seen a dominant Ferrari with McLaren, BMW Sauber and Renault behind fighting to be best of the rest.

If that's your take, then you cant exactly complain about the criticism about the lack of Ferrari's pace being down to him. Can't have it both ways.

The impact of drivers on the car is very small, let alone of somebody that just joined.

[revmeister]

If that's your take, then you cant exactly complain about the criticism about the lack of Ferrari's pace being down to him. Can't have it both ways.

The impact of drivers on the car is very small, let alone of somebody that just joined.

Pretty sure the much discussed 6 tenths that Alonso brought to McLaren was his knowledge of how to work the Michelin tires. Renault had a very close relationship with Michelin, which gave them an advantage over the other Michelin shod teams.

 

Edit, guess I was wrong about the Michelins in 2008. Still, I thought there was a technical setup issue that he was able to help them with.

Edited by revmeister, 21 January 2021 - 00:39.

[P123]

A big 'what if'.  Had he kept his head screwed on rather than focusing on salvaging his ego he'd have likely won it in 2007, and again '08 too if Hamilton drove in the same manner as he did that year.  The rest.... sure, I don't think Alonso's attitude played any great detrimental part. The Ferrari wasn't quite up to it and the Honda engine was useless.  His bank manager would have been more than happy though.

[P123]

Pretty sure the much discussed 6 tenths that Alonso brought to McLaren was his knowledge of how to work the Michelin tires. Renault had a very close relationship with Michelin, which gave them an advantage over the other Michelin shod teams.

They didn't use Michelins in 07. 

 

Anyway, I'm sure Alonso himself was not entirely serious when he uttered such, and neither does anybody else take it seriously.  Naturally, Alonso brings performance that lesser drivers won't.

[NixxxoN]

If that's your take, then you cant exactly complain about the criticism about the lack of Ferrari's pace being down to him. Can't have it both ways.

The impact of drivers on the car is very small, let alone of somebody that just joined.

Depends a lot of the context and situation, which should not be ommited.
In 2007 he joined McLaren coming from a champion team and being champion himself.

In 2010 he joined Ferrari after driving an awfully uncompetitive Renault that was nowhere.

[noikeee]

Depends a lot of the context and situation, which should not be ommited.
In 2007 he joined McLaren coming from a champion team and being champion himself.

In 2010 he joined Ferrari after driving an awfully uncompetitive Renault that was nowhere.

 

So it's not about Alonso and it's about any driver coming from a competitive team to an uncompetitive team then. Glad you agree that it's not Alonso then.

[NixxxoN]

So it's not about Alonso and it's about any driver coming from a competitive team to an uncompetitive team then. Glad you agree that it's not Alonso then.

 

Its not just any driver coming from a competitive team, its a 2x WDC and from a team having won 2x WCC aswell

And yes its about Alonso (amongst others who may do similarly the same). No idea how you discarded Alonso from the equation here.

Edited by NixxxoN, 19 January 2021 - 14:11.

[fed up]

This was Alonso’s biggest mistake:

 

https://f1i.com/news...y-red-bull.html

 

That the man still managed to get a Ferrari seat despite the shenanigans of 2007 and crashgate, is testament to how much the paddock rated him. He bottled 2010 and 2012 in my view, so please don’t take it as flame bait, so I believe 2 x WDC is below expectations for him, especially given that Vettel has 4 of the things and near on 20 more GP wins than him.

 

When the dust has settled on his career, he’ll be compared to the likes of Kimi and Button even Mika, but sadly not against the Vettels, Lewis’, Senna’s, Piquet’s, Prost’s etc. 

[NixxxoN]

This was Alonso’s biggest mistake:

 

https://f1i.com/news...y-red-bull.html

 

That the man still managed to get a Ferrari seat despite the shenanigans of 2007 and crashgate, is testament to how much the paddock rated him. He bottled 2010 and 2012 in my view, so please don’t take it as flame bait, so I believe 2 x WDC is below expectations for him, especially given that Vettel has 4 of the things and near on 20 more GP wins than him.

 

When the dust has settled on his career, he’ll be compared to the likes of Kimi and Button even Mika, but sadly not against the Vettels, Lewis’, Senna’s, Piquet’s, Prost’s etc. 

This has been discussed many times. That wasn't a mistake at all. He didnt have a crystal ball.

No one would have thought at the time that Red Bull would become so competitive and win so much. Not even Mateschitz, Horner or Newey! They were not much more than an average midfield team that won absolutely nothing when Alonso got the offer. Barely a slight improvement from the former Jaguar Racing.

It was a big missed opportunity which is different from a "career mistake"

Edited by NixxxoN, 19 January 2021 - 14:27.

[PlayboyRacer]

When the dust has settled on his career, he’ll be compared to the likes of Kimi and Button even Mika, but sadly not against the Vettels, Lewis’, Senna’s, Piquet’s, Prost’s etc.

LOL... speak for yourself.

I have Alonso miles ahead of Kimi, Jenson, Mika and Seb.

He's right with Prost, Senna, Hamilton and Schumacher. Every day of the week imo.

Alonso has nothing to prove. Great car, average car or absolute dog... he's been outstanding and often brilliant no matter the situation.

[balage06]

Meh. I like Fernando as a driver, but he probably is one of the most overrated drivers in recent history, just to balance out the previous post.

[shure]

LOL... speak for yourself.

I have Alonso miles ahead of Kimi, Jenson, Mika and Seb.

He's right with Prost, Senna, Hamilton and Schumacher. Every day of the week imo.

Alonso has nothing to prove. Great car, average car or absolute dog... he's been outstanding and often brilliant no matter the situation.

Yeah, I'd have to agree.  He's alredy rated by most as higher than Vettel, for example.  There's no way he'll be compared with Kimi or Jenson.  Not a chance

[PlayboyRacer]

Meh. I like Fernando as a driver, but he probably is one of the most overrated drivers in recent history, just to balance out the previous post.

No need to balance out anything. I fail to see where Fernando has underperformed through his career.

Perhaps it's fair enough to view him below the group of drivers I placed him within. I can live with that. But he's still miles ahead of the others.

[prty]

The problem was not behavior at all, like many like to say, but rather his investment skills. Choosing a team can be seen as an investment, and rule number one of investment is that past success doesn't guarantee future success. However, in every interview he gave along his career, he was always saying things like "Ferrari and McLaren dominated the last X years of F1 so that's the place to be". And he first went for McLaren, then Ferrari. Meanwhile, Red Bull and Mercedes dominated. That way of thinking was so wrong.

[Boing 2]

This was Alonso’s biggest mistake:

 

https://f1i.com/news...y-red-bull.html

 

That the man still managed to get a Ferrari seat despite the shenanigans of 2007 and crashgate, is testament to how much the paddock rated him. He bottled 2010 and 2012 in my view, so please don’t take it as flame bait, so I believe 2 x WDC is below expectations for him, especially given that Vettel has 4 of the things and near on 20 more GP wins than him.

 

When the dust has settled on his career, he’ll be compared to the likes of Kimi and Button even Mika, but sadly not against the Vettels, Lewis’, Senna’s, Piquet’s, Prost’s etc. 

Firstly, as I mentioned, he had a choice between a drinks company without a race win and the biggest name on the grid that had recently won 5 years on the trot, won in 07 and missed 08 by a fraction. Ferrari was a no-brainer, Red Bull was a miracle.

 

As for bottling 2012, he started that season with a car that qualified P12 (Massa P16)  P9 (Massa P12)  P9 (Massa P12)  P9 (Massa P14)  and yet missed the title by 4 points. (281/278) Massa finished P7 on 122 points. That car shouldn't have even been a contender, he only DNF'd twice both times taken out by another driver in the run to turn 1, if he'd finished just one of those races at his average finishing position that year he'd have taken the title. I very rarely think the 'wrong' driver wins the title but 2012 is one of the few years I think should've went to Alonso.

[Eff1]

LOL... speak for yourself.

I have Alonso miles ahead of Kimi, Jenson, Mika and Seb.

He's right with Prost, Senna, Hamilton and Schumacher. Every day of the week imo.

Alonso has nothing to prove. Great car, average car or absolute dog... he's been outstanding and often brilliant no matter the situation.

 

Agree with this - he is up there with the very best. Just because he has "only" 2 WDC's doesn't mean he cannot be mentioned in the same group as Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost etc. 

[PlayboyRacer]

Agree with this - he is up there with the very best. Just because he has "only" 2 WDC's doesn't mean he cannot be mentioned in the same group as Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Prost etc.

Stirling Moss has precisely 0 WDC's. Jim Clark has "only" 2 himself.

Enough said.

[Boing 2]

The problem was not behavior at all, like many like to say, but rather his investment skills. Choosing a team can be seen as an investment, and rule number one of investment is that past success doesn't guarantee future success. However, in every interview he gave along his career, he was always saying things like "Ferrari and McLaren dominated the last X years of F1 so that's the place to be". And he first went for McLaren, then Ferrari. Meanwhile, Red Bull and Mercedes dominated. That way of thinking was so wrong.

No one would have looked at the scene in 08 and done anything different to Fernando. It's one thing for Coulthard or Webber with limited choices to take a punt but a double World Champion with high market value? madness.

 

              Ferrari      Red Bull (Stewart/Jaguar)

1997         P2               P9

1998         P2               P8

1999         P1               P4

2000         P1               P9

2001         P1               P8

2002         P1               P7

2003         P1               P7

2004         P1               P7

2005         P3               P7

2006         P2               P7

2007         P1               P7

2008         P1               P6

[shure]

The problem was not behavior at all, like many like to say, but rather his investment skills. Choosing a team can be seen as an investment, and rule number one of investment is that past success doesn't guarantee future success. However, in every interview he gave along his career, he was always saying things like "Ferrari and McLaren dominated the last X years of F1 so that's the place to be". And he first went for McLaren, then Ferrari. Meanwhile, Red Bull and Mercedes dominated. That way of thinking was so wrong.

Luck plays an enormous part in that.  Hamilton was reportedly desperate to join Red Bull in 2012 and if he had done then history would have looked very differently on him.  It's natural that drivers look at who has a track record of success, rather than take a punt on a team's potential.  Alonso was just unlucky that the teams didn't deliver the car they promised, that's all

[kosmos]

Alonso was never going to win the title at McLaren

 

For me Alonso's big failure in his career by far is to have left a very competitive Renault.

After becoming champion with them he thought he could go and win elsewhere no problem, and no, in F1 you have to be in the right place at the right time. Also you need to have the right environment for you to succeed, no matter how good you are as a driver.

He should have remained at Renault for more years even if they stopped being so much competitive, for the sake of loyalty IMO

Renault future in F1 was uncertain at that time, leaving Renault was the right choice.

[DeKnyff]

The problem was not behavior at all, like many like to say, but rather his investment skills. Choosing a team can be seen as an investment, and rule number one of investment is that past success doesn't guarantee future success. However, in every interview he gave along his career, he was always saying things like "Ferrari and McLaren dominated the last X years of F1 so that's the place to be". And he first went for McLaren, then Ferrari. Meanwhile, Red Bull and Mercedes dominated. That way of thinking was so wrong.

Yeah, but choosing a team, just like choosing investments, is a very easy thing with the advantage of hindsight. But in the 2007-2008 winter, no one would have thought Red Bull would be a winner in 2010. Even if Alonso would have gone there, he still would have signed with Ferrari after a dismal 2008 season. Even the McLaren-Honda project didn't seem a bad prospect in 2014. Just like many investors would have chosen Commodore above Apple in 1980.

[NixxxoN]

Alonso was never going to win the title at McLaren

 

Renault future in F1 was uncertain at that time, leaving Renault was the right choice.

 

Well, uncertain is not the same as "future looking bad". They ended up being in F1 until 2010

[fed up]

Luck plays an enormous part in that.  Hamilton was reportedly desperate to join Red Bull in 2012 and if he had done then history would have looked very differently on him.  It's natural that drivers look at who has a track record of success, rather than take a punt on a team's potential.  Alonso was just unlucky that the teams didn't deliver the car they promised, that's all

If you look at the key movers of yesteryear, and Lewis for that matter, they’ve tended to follow the engineers, the leaders that had been there, done that - Ross Brawn in Lewis and Michael’s case, Newey for others - Alonso followed the teams not the personnel in my view. In 2008 when he was discussing the RBR opportunity, Newey was in situ and a set of new regs were around the corner for the 2009 season. 
 

Lewis made the right call in 2013 because he followed the plans and personnel at Mercedes. Alonso made the wrong calls, the worst of which was McLaren in 2015.

 

One can’t blame him for any of this however, where I think he has got it wrong is in the bridges that he has burned over the past 18 plus years. 2007 excluded him from a Mercedes seat, if rumours are to believed. Ditto the various scraps he’s had with RBR. Unlike Kimi, he burned bridges at Ferrari as well. The upshot of all of this is that his best and only opportunity for a comeback has been the ever faithful Renault (Alpine) - not a bad opportunity in the scheme of things, but Alonso is better than that.

[prty]

No one would have looked at the scene in 08 and done anything different to Fernando. It's one thing for Coulthard or Webber with limited choices to take a punt but a double World Champion with high market value? madness.

 

              Ferrari      Red Bull (Stewart/Jaguar)

1997         P2               P9

1998         P2               P8

1999         P1               P4

2000         P1               P9

2001         P1               P8

2002         P1               P7

2003         P1               P7

2004         P1               P7

2005         P3               P7

2006         P2               P7

2007         P1               P7

2008         P1               P6

 

Luck plays an enormous part in that.  Hamilton was reportedly desperate to join Red Bull in 2012 and if he had done then history would have looked very differently on him.  It's natural that drivers look at who has a track record of success, rather than take a punt on a team's potential.  Alonso was just unlucky that the teams didn't deliver the car they promised, that's all

 

 

Yeah, but choosing a team, just like choosing investments, is a very easy thing with the advantage of hindsight. But in the 2007-2008 winter, no one would have thought Red Bull would be a winner in 2010. Even if Alonso would have gone there, he still would have signed with Ferrari after a dismal 2008 season. Even the McLaren-Honda project didn't seem a bad prospect in 2014. Just like many investors would have chosen Commodore above Apple in 1980.

 

But my point was rather, F1 has always worked in cycles, maybe around 5-6 years long. He always had in sight the best team that has been dominating for a while. And even just considering how rules in F1 tend to be made (go a bit against the dominating time of the moment), you can see it wasn't as safe as it looked. Same with Mercedes right now, with the new rules nobody knows what will happen.

[AustinF1]

You think that if Alonso hadn't joined McLaren in 2007, Hamilton would have won the title that year?
Sounds a bit like wishful thinking to me

What would have stopped Lewis from winning it? He and Alonso tied, 1 point off Kimi as it was.

 

Pretty sure the much discussed 6 tenths that Alonso brought to McLaren was his knowledge of how to work the Michelin tires. Renault had a very close relationship with Michelin, which gave them an advantage over the other Michelin shod teams.

Alonso also found a way, to the amazement of the Renault and Michelin engineers at the time, to make the front tires work better by intentionally inducing understeer on entry.

[Beri]

I'm quite surprised how this thread has evolved without exploding. Yet.

No one would have looked at the scene in 08 and done anything different to Fernando. It's one thing for Coulthard or Webber with limited choices to take a punt but a double World Champion with high market value? madness.
 
              Ferrari      Red Bull (Stewart/Jaguar)
1997         P2               P9
1998         P2               P8
1999         P1               P4
2000         P1               P9
2001         P1               P8
2002         P1               P7
2003         P1               P7
2004         P1               P7
2005         P3               P7
2006         P2               P7
2007         P1               P7
2008         P1               P6

Fair point. But in that light, aside from the obvious bulls eye in 2009, there was no one who would have thought Hamilton was going to dominate by leaving McLaren for Mercedes. At the time who would be a 5 time World champion was discussed as being either Vettel or Alonso.
Point I'm trying to make, is that you never can be certain that looking at the history would mean you would automatically make the right decision. Alonso, hindsight, should have perhaps opted for Red Bull instead of Ferrari. Fact is, he didn't and for very clear and logic reasons that you've mentioned. But had he taken the gamble, I'm quite certain that he would have added a couple of championships behind his name and would have retired already.

[AustinF1]

This has been discussed many times. That wasn't a mistake at all. He didnt have a crystal ball.

No one would have thought at the time that Red Bull would become so competitive and win so much. Not even Mateschitz, Horner or Newey! They were not much more than an average midfield team that won absolutely nothing when Alonso got the offer. Barely a slight improvement from the former Jaguar Racing.

It was a big missed opportunity which is different from a "career mistake"

Yep. A great deal of nonsense has been posted about Alonso's 'mistakes' leaving Renault & Ferrari, not jumping on the RBR ride, etc, but only with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Nobody was calling those moves mistakes at the time. A great many people also celebrated ad nauseum and with great glee that Alonso made a huge mistake leaving Ferrari. Doesn't seem like such a mistake now. And re: the supposed burned bridges at Ferrari, they were trying to extend Alonso. Mattiachi was trying to re-sign him to a multi-year deal, and he wanted a shorter term.

 

Luck plays an enormous part in that.  Hamilton was reportedly desperate to join Red Bull in 2012 and if he had done then history would have looked very differently on him.  It's natural that drivers look at who has a track record of success, rather than take a punt on a team's potential.  Alonso was just unlucky that the teams didn't deliver the car they promised, that's all

Yep. And if Michael stays on at Merc for one more year when Lewis was out of his McLaren contract, then Lewis either re-signs with McLaren or moves on somewhere else, with one WDC under his belt, and someone else wins a bunch of WDCs on the trot in a dominant Merc. Luck absolutely plays a huge role. Nobody out there has a crystal ball.

Edited by AustinF1, 19 January 2021 - 19:47.

[AustinF1]

Alonso's behaviour in 2007 made him a much bigger risk than he needed to be for team managers. He remained attractive to teams who felt like they needed a kick up the arse, but if your mindset is "why change a winning formula?", Fernando is an obvious no-go. IMO.

Were it all about driver behavior at McLaren in 2007, then Lewis would have also been branded a big risk. 

[garoidb]

Yep. A great deal of nonsense has been posted about Alonso's 'mistakes' leaving Renault & Ferrari, not jumping on the RBR ride, etc, but only with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Nobody was calling those moves mistakes at the time.

 

The teams that went on to be the dominant ones from 2009 onwards had never previously won world championships, and barely any races before then (not counting the tenuous Tyrrell connection with BAR). The three teams with established track records of winning everything from 1998 to 2008 have all hired him, sometimes repeatedly. So, should he have taken a risk to go with Red Bull or what became Mercedes? In hindsight, yes, but with that attitude he could have ended up with Williams or Sauber or Haas just as easily. The Ferrari move was a solid career move. The 2007 McLaren move should have been, too. It was only when unexpected teams with locked in driver pairings achieved overnight dominance that things went wrong. But, look at Vettel. He was lucky in terms of having the best drive for a period but it wasn't really down to his astuteness, as we can now see.

[ARTGP]

Failure 3 - Ferrari: If he hadn't gotten so 'political' he'd still be there today.....so what? 2010 and 2012 remain Ferrari's closest title challenges to date, in the 6 years since he left they've never been as competitive and never gotten close to a title, staying longer would have reaped nothing.

 

 

Ferrari could have won in '17 and '18 with the right driver even if the car wasn't always the quickest.  It's not a stretch to imagine what could have been for Alonso. 2 more good chances to fight for the title in '17 and '18.

Edited by ARTGP, 19 January 2021 - 19:37.

[Dicun]

Well, I disagree and I love Fred.

Had he kept cool in 2007 he would have beaten Lewis, then in 2008 he would easily won the title too: Lewis drove far worse there then in 2007, and Massa also didnt perform well.

What then would have happened is pure speculation (as pointed out above maybe he'd also won 2010/12, but about equal chances as at Ferrari, so skip), but I reckon then Lewis wouldnt have had the same status as he had in 2012 and Nando wouldnt've been a persona non grata at Merc...

Agree on the rest though

 

What do you mean by that exactly? There have been controversial reports from inside McLaren as to who started/said what and when. 

 

Regardless of the intra-team war, he still could have won the title had he not binned it at Fuji so I see that driver error as a bigger factor for him not being able to win a third title on the trot.

[cpbell]

IMO, had he still been at Ferrari in 2018 he'd have won the championship that Vettel lost through making mistakes.

Edited by cpbell, 19 January 2021 - 21:04.

[AustinF1]

Ferrari could have won in '17 and '18 with the right driver even if the car wasn't always the quickest.  It's not a stretch to imagine what could have been for Alonso. 2 more good chances to fight for the title in '17 and '18.

There was mayyybe an outside chance in 2017. Even then, I doubt it. 2018, I really doubt it. But even then, 2014 was Alonso's 5th year at the Scuderia. Had he actually stayed long enough to drive for them in 2017, that would have been his 8th season there. Does anyone really think Alonso or any other elite driver was realistically going to stay 8 or 9 years without a championship, even at Ferrari? That seems unlikely, at best.

Edited by AustinF1, 19 January 2021 - 19:56.

[Marklar]

What do you mean by that exactly? There have been controversial reports from inside McLaren as to who started/said what and when.

Regardless of the intra-team war, he still could have won the title had he not binned it at Fuji so I see that driver error as a bigger factor for him not being able to win a third title on the trot.

Even if he had won the title I suspect he would have still left at the season end due to the obvious tensions, and thus missed the 2008 title.

Even if there are conflicting reports about who started it, when things fall out the way it did usually both parties share the blame, as both could have used a less confrontational approach.

[masa90]

Alonsos careermoves really affected other teams aswell. Would Ferrari really replaced Kimi in that case? And if so, with who?

 

Interesting concept, but I must say I still think Fred would have atleast 3rd title if he had played less games on his career. The dude atleast was an amazing driver ON TRACK.