3414 replies to this topic

[ToniF1]

 

 

 

The 'E Performance' tag is a new label that Mercedes is using for all its forthcoming Mercedes-AMG hybrid cars as it pushes on with the technology.

 

The W12 will run the same basic chassis as last season but features a host of aerodynamic upgrades that the outfit has worked on in a bid to cope with the challenge of new rules aimed at slowing cars down.

 

Technical director James Allison said last week that while the carry over of cars had led some to expect a similar performance order this season, he was sceptical about things playing out like that.

"If you are looking at this new season of 2021 and you are thinking it is just going to be a carry-over of what we saw in 2020, well, don't be fooled by anyone who is telling you that," he said.

"The rules are very, very different for 2021, the work we've had to do has been very wide reaching and we hope we have done enough to stay successful but as ever at this time of year we are just full of the anxiety and excitement of waiting to find out whether all this investment that we have made into the new car will indeed pay off with a challenger that is capable of fighting from the front."

 

https://www.motorspo...f1-car/5275793/

[Hyatt]

concerning engine, a proven source from the past (f1technical - mudflap) sounds rather gloomey:

 

 

 

The only numbers going around in the press are +40 hp Honda and +30 hp Ferrari. Not sure where the Merc numbers are coming from but I don't think their engine development is going very well.

Unfortunately as of this year I no longer have any contacts in Brixworth - all of the folks I know are either contractors who were laid off in spring or permies who burnt out and left.

 

 

[GoldenColt]

I have a strange feeling regarding their prospects for this season, unlike the last 7 seasons. Even in 2019 after Ferrari looked to be the team to beat after winter testing I didn't worry too much. We'll see.

Edited by GoldenColt, 07 February 2021 - 13:11.

[masa90]

Lets see if they get more out of it than the previous one. Safe to say this one will again win both titles, lets see with how much.

[sabjit]

I have a strange feeling regarding their prospects for this season, unlike the last 7 seasons. Even in 2019 after Ferrari looked to be the team to beat after winter testing I didn't worry too much. We'll see.

 

I still remember this and I can guarantee you it will happen again and people will be all over these boards declaring Merc midfield. And then the Ferrari thread explodes comes Q3 in Melbourne. Doubt many people will be expecting Ferrari to have made that much progress this year though so maybe we are safe for Q3 Bahrain.

[TomNokoe]

W12?

[Ivanhoe]

W12?
 

I hope for them it’s a bit faster 

[P123]

I have a strange feeling regarding their prospects for this season, unlike the last 7 seasons. Even in 2019 after Ferrari looked to be the team to beat after winter testing I didn't worry too much. We'll see.

 

Doomed, dooooooomed! 

 

Merc know what they are doing.  It could be said that with the change in tyres, and the floor changes, along with budget cap and development restrictions means that the championships are not quite the nailed on certainty that some are suggesting.  Red Bull may get it right from the off one season too.  So at a mere guess,  I'd say this coming season will be a lot closer than last season and 2019 (albeit that was a walkover more to do with the reds falling at various hurdles).

[P123]

I hope for them it’s a bit faster 

 

With a more reliable engine too!

[Goron3]

I'm fascinated to see what Mercedes do this year. For all the talk of DAS, last year was all about Merc's rear suspension and new gearbox, which slimmed the rear of the car very nicely. I fully expect the other top teams to copy some of these aspects for this year. No doubt they've come up with something inventive somewhere on the car once again, but I do hope the aero changes give us a proper high rake vs low rake battle like we had in 2017.

 

Edit. I've also just seen Hyatt's post above regarding Merc's PU situation. I used to know someone at Brixworth (not particularly senior)  and they were forced to take voluntary redundancy back in July as a result of severe cost saving. They now work for Renault. That F1Technical source is a guy called Mudflap and he's been spot on for a long time regarding Mercedes rumours. It also does make me wonder if that's why Mercedes support a freeze.

Edited by Goron3, 08 February 2021 - 12:27.

[Nemo1965]

You know... I have been thinking about the supposed engine-advantage of Mercedes and hence it is thus seen as the key element of their success and therefore, to beat them, Red Bull and Honda and Renault have to gain on that field to overtake them.

 

The Mercedes-engine IS the best, but honestly... I think they just build the best car in all aspects. For example: they have done something with the rear-axle of their cars I've never seen F1-cars do... almost like the wheels move in a horizontal pane to the outside at the entry and then snap back inside at the exit. I believe in ten years time we will hear stuff about the Mercedes-cars which will make us say: 'Oooh.' (Like I learned about forty years after the fact that the Tyrrell groundeffect-cars of 82 had something very special skirt-construction. Or that the Brabham of 1981 did not have air-pressure lifting up the car-machinery at all).

 

What I am trying to say is: Mercedes is like Roger Federer was to tennis, or Bjorn Borg was to tennis, or Erik Heiden was to skating. They've brought a level of professionalism and technical knowledge to F1 that even the super-smart designs of Adrian Newey can't beat. Just like Mercedes in the 50's just put racing into another dimension. It is just not 'lucking out' with the engine.

Edited by Nemo1965, 08 February 2021 - 18:31.

[Paco]

I'm fascinated to see what Mercedes do this year. For all the talk of DAS, last year was all about Merc's rear suspension and new gearbox, which slimmed the rear of the car very nicely. I fully expect the other top teams to copy some of these aspects for this year. No doubt they've come up with something inventive somewhere on the car once again, but I do hope the aero changes give us a proper high rake vs low rake battle like we had in 2017.

 

Edit. I've also just seen Hyatt's post above regarding Merc's PU situation. I used to know someone at Brixworth (not particularly senior)  and they were forced to take voluntary redundancy back in July as a result of severe cost saving. They now work for Renault. That F1Technical source is a guy called Mudflap and he's been spot on for a long time regarding Mercedes rumours. It also does make me wonder if that's why Mercedes support a freeze.

 

Covid-Redundancy?  ---- The Cost Savings are coming in until this season...   Mercedes had a very much known issue in preseason testing with the PU, why would they go into severe cost saving with the highest risk area of performance in 2020???

 

Seems kind of strange, not saying its not what happened, just seems odd..  Mercedes has said public they have started the process of releasing staffing based on future Budget cap preparations..

 

Plus, wouldn't they be using every last bit of money (employee hours) addressing the 2022 challenger and engine.. 

Edited by Paco, 08 February 2021 - 19:27.

[shure]

You know... I have been thinking about the supposed engine-advantage of Mercedes and hence it is thus seen as the key element of their success and therefore, to beat them, Red Bull and Honda and Renault have to gain on that field to overtake them.

 

The Mercedes-engine IS the best, but honestly... I think they just build the best car in all aspects. For example: they have done something with the rear-axle of their cars I've never seen F1-cars do... almost like the wheels move in a horizontal pane to the outside at the entry and then snap back inside at the exit. I believe in ten years time we will hear stuff about the Mercedes-cars which will make us say: 'Oooh.' (Like I learned about forty years after the fact that the Tyrrell groundeffect-cars of 82 had something very special skirt-construction. Or that the Brabham of 1981 did not have air-pressure lifting up the car-machinery at all).

 

What I am trying to say is: Mercedes is like Roger Federer was to tennis, or Bjorn Borg was to tennis, or Erik Heiden was to skating. They've brought a level of professionalism and technical knowledge to F1 that even the super-smart designs of Adrian Newey can't beat. Just like Mercedes in the 50's just put racing into another dimension. It is just not 'lucking out' with the engine.

I think there are a lot of very smart people with a lot of data crunching tools at all the F1 teams who will have analysed everything from GPS trace to engine pitch to determine exactly how good all the PUs are and if they all believe that the Merc PU is the out and out best then I'm inclined to believe them.

 

That said, it's obvious that Merc have built a damn fine car, too.  But you only have to look at the Ferrari experience to see what a difference a very strong PU can make.  They were title contenders a couple of years ago when their (allegedly illegal) PU was reported to be the class of the field, but when they had to rein back the horses they plummeted down the field

[Paco]

I think there are a lot of very smart people with a lot of data crunching tools at all the F1 teams who will have analysed everything from GPS trace to engine pitch to determine exactly how good all the PUs are and if they all believe that the Merc PU is the out and out best then I'm inclined to believe them.

 

That said, it's obvious that Merc have built a damn fine car, too.  But you only have to look at the Ferrari experience to see what a difference a very strong PU can make.  They were title contenders a couple of years ago when their (allegedly illegal) PU was reported to be the class of the field, but when they had to rein back the horses they plummeted down the field

 

I fully agree.  All this PU talk is just that.. noise.  They have been building amazing chassis and have out chassis everyone else.  That W10b went pretty well for a copy out of the gate and just shows it's not just the engine.

 

Mercedes success the past 3 years are predominately Lewis-Chassis-PU in that order in my opinion if you take all things into consideration of how Bottas has gone who he himself is top fast pilot.   Mercedes just doesn't get enough cred for their chassis post Diva years either.  Even when Ferrari leaped them, Lewis was the difference maker.    

 

It is what is.

[shure]

I fully agree.  All this PU talk is just that.. noise.  They have been building amazing chassis and have out chassis everyone else.  That W10b went pretty well for a copy out of the gate and just shows it's not just the engine.

 

Mercedes success the past 3 years are predominately Lewis-Chassis-PU in that order in my opinion if you take all things into consideration of how Bottas has gone who he himself is top fast pilot.   Mercedes just doesn't get enough cred for their chassis post Diva years either.  Even when Ferrari leaped them, Lewis was the difference maker.    

 

It is what is.

On the basis that if you remove any factor what difference would it make I'd have to go with PU-chassis-Lewis.  If they lose Lewis, they are still the class of the field.  But if they get a worse PU or chassis, they drop into the midfield at least.  All three combined make them even more impressive, of course, but the reality is the driver is the least important part of the equation these days

[Paco]

On the basis that if you remove any factor what difference would it make I'd have to go with PU-chassis-Lewis. If they lose Lewis, they are still the class of the field. But if they get a worse PU or chassis, they drop into the midfield at least. All three combined make them even more impressive, of course, but the reality is the driver is the least important part of the equation these days

That’s your opinion.. and that’s fine as well. It’s too bad Lewis also has a lot to do with getting the car to where it is as well. But thats ok if you don’t see Lewis value in the equation. If you believe it’s all engine, then why can’t RP and Williams compete more and Tracing Point had a very handy driver in Sergio. Williams as well in Russell. Honda have been winning races so not as if they have a brick of an engine.

Lewis Max and Charles are the difference makers in their respective teams performance. Full stop.

Ferrari in 2020 was a horrible engine for obvious reasons.

The difference between RB and Mercedes are the drivers and the fact Honda was a. It less reliable and made a glitchy car to drive and be greet everywhere.

However, their performance levels were driver 1st, chassis 2nd and power unit 3rd...

[shure]

That’s your opinion.. and that’s fine as well. It’s too bad Lewis also has a lot to do with getting the car to where it is as well. But thats ok if you don’t see Lewis value in the equation. If you believe it’s all engine, then why can’t RP and Williams compete more and Tracing Point had a very handy driver in Sergio. Williams as well in Russell. Honda have been winning races so not as if they have a brick of an engine.

Lewis Max and Charles are the difference makers in their respective teams performance. Full stop.

Ferrari in 2020 was a horrible engine for obvious reasons.

The difference between RB and Mercedes are the drivers and the fact Honda was a. It less reliable and made a glitchy car to drive and be greet everywhere.

However, their performance levels were driver 1st, chassis 2nd and power unit 3rd...

This is why it's difficult to have sensible discussions on here these days as people invariably take umbrage at perceived slights on drivers that simply aren't there

 

I don't say Lewis has no value.  I'm saying the reality of it is the car overall is the biggest factor in Mercedes' dominance and if you were forced to make a choice to swap out one part of the equation the driver would almost overwhelmingly be the logical bet.  In simple terms Lewis wouldn't be winning in any other car on the grid, whereas Mercedes would still be top with any other driver.  It's debatable whether they'd be quite as far ahead with another driver, but they wouldn't suddenly drop into the midfield.

 

Max or Charles aren't not winning because they are no good, but because they don't have the car under them to enable them to win.  None of this is a reflection on any driver, but since the start of the hybrid era Merc has produced a largely unbeatable package which Lewis to his credit has taken full advantage of, but the results wouldn't be there without the car.  Where in that equation you put chassis over PU is more subjective I think (in fact, I'm probably going to revise it to chassis/PU/driver) but not when it comes to either of those vs the driver.

 

Sorry, but your assertion that the difference between RB and Mercedes is the drivers goes beyond mere opinion I feel and flies in the face of reality.  There can't be many people who feel that Bottas is that much superior to Max - or even at all - that he would be regularly beating him even without reliability issues for the latter.

 

if the cars were closer, then the equation might be different.  E.G. Leclerc has been dragging that Ferrari into qualifying positions which it doesn't look like it should be in.  And in the midfield the drivers can certainly have a big impact.  But Merc is unquestionably so far ahead that the drivers are simply the icing on their particular cake.  

 

Finally, Russell showed what a massive change a car can make to a driver's performance.  Same driver, same PU, but all of a sudden he's going from fighting to stay off last to fighting for the win.  Clearly the biggest factor in that equation was the car.  Mercedes have produced a beast which excels on all fronts

Edited by shure, 10 February 2021 - 08:43.

[Paco]

This is why it's difficult to have sensible discussions on here these days as people invariably take umbrage at perceived slights on drivers that simply aren't there

 

I don't say Lewis has no value.  I'm saying the reality of it is the car overall is the biggest factor in Mercedes' dominance and if you were forced to make a choice to swap out one part of the equation the driver would almost overwhelmingly be the logical bet.  In simple terms Lewis wouldn't be winning in any other car on the grid, whereas Mercedes would still be top with any other driver.  It's debatable whether they'd be quite as far ahead with another driver, but they wouldn't suddenly drop into the midfield.

 

Max or Charles aren't not winning because they are no good, but because they don't have the car under them to enable them to win.  None of this is a reflection on any driver, but since the start of the hybrid era Merc has produced a largely unbeatable package which Lewis to his credit has taken full advantage of, but the results wouldn't be there without the car.  Where in that equation you put chassis over PU is more subjective I think (in fact, I'm probably going to revise it to chassis/PU/driver) but not when it comes to either of those vs the driver.

 

Sorry, but your assertion that the difference between RB and Mercedes is the drivers goes beyond mere opinion I feel and flies in the face of reality.  There can't be many people who feel that Bottas is that much superior to Max - or even at all - that he would be regularly beating him even without reliability issues for the latter.

 

if the cars were closer, then the equation might be different.  E.G. Leclerc has been dragging that Ferrari into qualifying positions which it doesn't look like it should be in.  And in the midfield the drivers can certainly have a big impact.  But Merc is unquestionably so far ahead that the drivers are simply the icing on their particular cake.  

 

Finally, Russell showed what a massive change a car can make to a driver's performance.  Same driver, same PU, but all of a sudden he's going from fighting to stay off last to fighting for the win.  Clearly the biggest factor in that equation was the car.  Mercedes have produced a beast which excels on all fronts

 

Russell was that different to be honest..

 

Was decently fast on Saturday but didn't outqualify Bottas.. that said, yes he had limited time to get fully integrated.  But lets not for forget that he had seat time in Mercedes the year before, drives the same engine etc.  So wasn't like Hulk jumping in at RP.  So did as he does at Williams.

 

On Sunday, he did well sure.  But he does usually outdrive he bad teammates at Williams.  So many drivers say how easy it is to get up to speed in these current gen cars, its getting that last little bit - the difference maker ie 1-2/10ths that is hard.  So on Sunday when you are never going anywhere near flat out.. sure it can make him look good especially in that chassis.   That said, he nailed the start of the race, got ahead of Bottas but as nearly anyone.. he could just cruze.. he did pull off a pace with significant tire advantage.  But still, yes he did it.  Unfortunately, we have no idea what could really have been due to the horrendous mistake by Mercedes.

 

Should have.. could have is just that.. didn't.  Plus, it was a weird track to boot.

 

We have no idea what he would be like at Monaco or Silverstone or Monza for example against Bottas or Lewis... Where it really matters.

 

So I still stand... that Lewis is the biggest reason Mercedes have had comfortable margins in winning when you look at what Bottas has brought to the team and how close Max can get to Mercedes.  So the RB was much better then they are given credit for but also just as Lewis eeeks out the time, as does Max.  So who is to say that when together Lewis would not still be ahead.

 

Just at RB looked bad due to Gasly and Albon, same goes for Mercedes.  Frankly, the cars are way more even then its appears simply because RB messed up the 2nd car worse then Mercedes have with Bottas.

 

Chassis for chassis, engine for engine.. I think its nip and tuck between them.  What's made the real difference and exaggerated Mercedes advantage is Lewis.   

 

Imagine if the line up was Bottas Latifi vs Max Sergio in 2020.. what the end of season would have looked like...  there in lies the issue of trying to compare Max and Lewis and what they bring..

 

had 2020 been run with Bottas - Latifi against Max and Sergio, there is a very good chance RB would have won the WCC... maybe not the WDC but that would have been close.

[shure]

Russell was that different to be honest..

 

Was decently fast on Saturday but didn't outqualify Bottas.. that said, yes he had limited time to get fully integrated.  But lets not for forget that he had seat time in Mercedes the year before, drives the same engine etc.  So wasn't like Hulk jumping in at RP.  So did as he does at Williams.

 

On Sunday, he did well sure.  But he does usually outdrive he bad teammates at Williams.  So many drivers say how easy it is to get up to speed in these current gen cars, its getting that last little bit - the difference maker ie 1-2/10ths that is hard.  So on Sunday when you are never going anywhere near flat out.. sure it can make him look good especially in that chassis.   That said, he nailed the start of the race, got ahead of Bottas but as nearly anyone.. he could just cruze.. he did pull off a pace with significant tire advantage.  But still, yes he did it.  Unfortunately, we have no idea what could really have been due to the horrendous mistake by Mercedes.

 

Should have.. could have is just that.. didn't.  Plus, it was a weird track to boot.

 

We have no idea what he would be like at Monaco or Silverstone or Monza for example against Bottas or Lewis... Where it really matters.

 

So I still stand... that Lewis is the biggest reason Mercedes have had comfortable margins in winning when you look at what Bottas has brought to the team and how close Max can get to Mercedes.  So the RB was much better then they are given credit for but also just as Lewis eeeks out the time, as does Max.  So who is to say that when together Lewis would not still be ahead.

 

Just at RB looked bad due to Gasly and Albon, same goes for Mercedes.  Frankly, the cars are way more even then its appears simply because RB messed up the 2nd car worse then Mercedes have with Bottas.

 

Chassis for chassis, engine for engine.. I think its nip and tuck between them.  What's made the real difference and exaggerated Mercedes advantage is Lewis.   

 

Imagine if the line up was Bottas Latifi vs Max Sergio in 2020.. what the end of season would have looked like...  there in lies the issue of trying to compare Max and Lewis and what they bring..

 

had 2020 been run with Bottas - Latifi against Max and Sergio, there is a very good chance RB would have won the WCC... maybe not the WDC but that would have been close.

Don't you see that the very fact you're acknowledging that Bottas would probably win the WDC is accepting that the car might still give him too big an advantage for Max to overcome?  Who really feels that Bottas would beat Max in equal machinery?  Which in itself means the machine has a bigger part to play in the equation than the car does

[Counterbalance]

On the basis that if you remove any factor what difference would it make I'd have to go with PU-chassis-Lewis.  If they lose Lewis, they are still the class of the field.  But if they get a worse PU or chassis, they drop into the midfield at least.  All three combined make them even more impressive, of course, but the reality is the driver is the least important part of the equation these days

 

Your theory goes up in smoke when you look at the RedBull driver pairing last year.

 

But back on topic, we heard this time last year that Mercedes were having reliability problems showing up on the dyno - and look what happened after that. I'll only be worried if an engine decides to detonate during the opening grand prix.

Edited by Counterbalance, 10 February 2021 - 22:44.

[ExEd]

Please for the love of god allow driver vs driver threads so we get rid of the inferity complex.

Every single thread ,day in day out ends up in this mess. 

 

My guy in your car is better than your guy in my car ZzzzZZzzzzzz .

Edited by ExEd, 10 February 2021 - 22:59.

[ExEd]

I have a strange feeling regarding their prospects for this season, unlike the last 7 seasons. Even in 2019 after Ferrari looked to be the team to beat after winter testing I didn't worry too much. We'll see.

 

I feel that the general approach of many (hopefully none in the team) that everything is done for and 

the season will be just a 2020 number two can cause problems.

Not that the team has shown signs of complacency but it doesn't feel right to be sooooo confident. 

[Paco]

Don't you see that the very fact you're acknowledging that Bottas would probably win the WDC is accepting that the car might still give him too big an advantage for Max to overcome?  Who really feels that Bottas would beat Max in equal machinery?  Which in itself means the machine has a bigger part to play in the equation than the car does

 

 

No. 

 

I accept that Bottas on most Saturday's is ultra fast.  

I accept that the current era the 1st corner, 1lap dictates a lot of the end result. 

 

So Bottas stands a reasonable chance Against Max due to his outright speed on Saturday being enough to make it pretty close in a WDC based on the fact the passing Delta times are too large for even Max to overcome at every track or even most tracks.

 

On Sundays where it matters for points, its less about the PU and Chassis and more about Saturday positioning more often then not.  Where Bottas shown he can more then handle it.  The tire management that Lewis shows up Bottas on then gets thrown out the door as it's not a Lewis-Bottas racing.. its Bottas against Max and as such.. less of an issue in determining why X driver is slower then Y in the same team.

 

I'm not talking fandom or supporting X driver.  Just how racing happens now in F1 and being realistic about what Lewis and Max bring and what their respective cars are capable of based on their contribution and what their teammates contribute and how the 2 teams are closer then a lot of people make them out to be.

Edited by Paco, 10 February 2021 - 23:46.

[ARTGP]

Your theory goes up in smoke when you look at the RedBull driver pairing last year.

 

But back on topic, we heard this time last year that Mercedes were having reliability problems showing up on the dyno - and look what happened after that. I'll only be worried if an engine decides to detonate during the opening grand prix.

 

 

That really was quite bizzare. Especially as it seemed F1 had just applied a bunch of development restrictions, and Mercedes's testing issues all but vanished.  But they did have a flare up later in the year (I think). With Perez's blow up (but maybe that was mileage?)

 

Anyway, Merc did say they have new intake system going on the car which is designed to cremate the competition further still... lovely to hear   . Worst case, Merc are closer to Red Bull. But I doubt Merc will be in the midfield next year. I'm not expecting many surprises (but I also didn't expect the Ham 1 year thing...)

Edited by ARTGP, 10 February 2021 - 23:48.

[Goron3]

Your theory goes up in smoke when you look at the RedBull driver pairing last year.

But back on topic, we heard this time last year that Mercedes were having reliability problems showing up on the dyno - and look what happened after that. I'll only be worried if an engine decides to detonate during the opening grand prix.

From memory, the person who said that the PU had issues last year was confident that a fix was already coming in season (for Canada in June) and that was before the season got delayed.

He's outright been a bit more negative on this year's PU, despite the upgrade that's coming.

[shure]

Your theory goes up in smoke when you look at the RedBull driver pairing last year.

 

But back on topic, we heard this time last year that Mercedes were having reliability problems showing up on the dyno - and look what happened after that. I'll only be worried if an engine decides to detonate during the opening grand prix.

I don't see how.  I did caveat that by saying it was different for a dominant vs midfield car.  For Mercedes specifically, the car/PU combo is the big differentiator to the rest.

 

Ultimately, Mercedes have built a beast of a car which has no peers.  I'm pretty confident they will continue with that this year and have little doubt they won't carry that through to 2022 and beyond.  I feel safe in saying that they have a strong enough technical foundation that they will continue to be dominant for the entire current PU era.

[Paco]

I don't see how. I did caveat that by saying it was different for a dominant vs midfield car. For Mercedes specifically, the car/PU combo is the big differentiator to the rest.

Ultimately, Mercedes have built a beast of a car which has no peers. I'm pretty confident they will continue with that this year and have little doubt they won't carry that through to 2022 and beyond. I feel safe in saying that they have a strong enough technical foundation that they will continue to be dominant for the entire current PU era.

Time will see.. they do seem spooked by the dF reduction and if they were stronger on the rear then it could be a bigger challenge for them then others.

[shure]

No. 

 

I accept that Bottas on most Saturday's is ultra fast.  

I accept that the current era the 1st corner, 1lap dictates a lot of the end result. 

 

So Bottas stands a reasonable chance Against Max due to his outright speed on Saturday being enough to make it pretty close in a WDC based on the fact the passing Delta times are too large for even Max to overcome at every track or even most tracks.

 

On Sundays where it matters for points, its less about the PU and Chassis and more about Saturday positioning more often then not.  Where Bottas shown he can more then handle it.  The tire management that Lewis shows up Bottas on then gets thrown out the door as it's not a Lewis-Bottas racing.. its Bottas against Max and as such.. less of an issue in determining why X driver is slower then Y in the same team.

 

I'm not talking fandom or supporting X driver.  Just how racing happens now in F1 and being realistic about what Lewis and Max bring and what their respective cars are capable of based on their contribution and what their teammates contribute and how the 2 teams are closer then a lot of people make them out to be.

If your view is that the Merc and the RB are close in performance then I don't think there's much to discuss here.  I have to be honest and say that's a position which really ignores all the evidence we have.  You only have to look at the qualifying gaps to note that the it's unrealistic to put that all down to driver.  The opening race was half a second.  Ignoring the second race (rain) the qualifying gaps to Max in the opening races were 1.3s, 0.7s, 1s, 0.6s.  We then had a brief anomaly at Spa where they were neck and neck (although given the gap to Lewis I'd suggest that was just a poor qualifying from Bottas), before normal business was resumed with 0.8s at the following race.  If you're saying that Bottas is that much faster than Max over a single lap then I think you're being a tad optimistic and not giving the car anywhere near enough credit.  I will say that in the second half of the season things closed up a bit but by Toto's own admission they switched development to 2021 very soon after the start of the year so the car didn't improve much from its baseline at the start.  The fact that despite that it was still ahead by the end just shows what a monster it was.

 

The Merc is unquestionably the class of the field.  Mercedes have produced unrivalled excellence these last few years and to suggest it's even in a fight with Red Bull just ignores what's really out there.  I think you might have too romantic an idea of what a driver can bring to the table in modern F1

[Nemo1965]

Regarding Lewis as the key element of Mercedes success: 

 

1. I think that Lewis and Bottas vs Max and Albon, the car is deciding in the battle.

 

2. Bottas and Ocon (for example) against Max and Ghasly, the car is still deciding in the battle, Max seriously would have been in contention for a few titles the last couple of years.

 

3. Bottas and Ocon against Max and Perez... it would go to the wire. 

 

IMHO: he is the ultimate part of the synthesis. Not the key, but the last piece of the puzzle.

[EndlessMotion]

I think it's pretty obvious that Mercedes would have cleaned up most championships since 2014 without having Hamilton in the car. But you can't convince me that Hamilton, or Alonso for that matter, wouldn't have stolen the WDC in the 2017 Ferrari from Mercedes, if Mercedes had a driver pairing of Bottas and another fast and decent driver on the grid. If Seb could beat Bottas to 2nd even with all his and Ferrari's mistakes then you have to wonder what Hamilton and Alonso could have done with that car. Even in 2018 Bottas was beaten by two Ferrari's and a Red Bull when they suffered multiple retirements to his one. You can't just say Bottas is useless for that argument whilst not acknowledging Hamilton as being able to make the difference when he's required to. Mercedes have built the class of the field car for so long now that Hamilton hasn't had very many occassions where he's been required to make the difference when most drivers wouldn't, but there have been more than enough examples. That Singapore pole, the wet races Germany 2018, Austria 2020 qualifying and Turkey was mesmerising, not to mention his McLaren days. It's true that drivers aren't able to be as big of a differenciator as they were back in the 80s and before then but the cream of the crop are still given opportunies to make the difference in the modern era and Hamilton time and again takes those opportunies to show his worth. Mercedes would be nuts to not pay for the best driver on the grid to maximise their points tally and just rely on their car each year.

 

Not too far away from the new car launches and winter testing now. Seems to have come around so quickly this year with the way my perception of time is with the covid restrictions. Much of the news and rumours about the prospects of this car have somehow passed me by though. Still a bit sad that we won't see DAS again this year. Clearly a lot of time and effort was put into the system so it's a shame it was taken away so quickly. Kind of hope we'll see another surprise device from a team on the grid this year but seems unlikely in the final year of these regulations.

Edited by EndlessMotion, 12 February 2021 - 11:10.

[RedRabbit]

I think it's pretty obvious that Mercedes would have cleaned up most championships since 2014 without having Hamilton in the car. But you can't convince me that Hamilton, or Alonso for that matter, wouldn't have stolen the WDC in the 2017 Ferrari from Mercedes, if Mercedes had a driver pairing of Bottas and another fast and decent driver on the grid. If Seb could beat Bottas to 2nd even with all his and Ferrari's mistakes then you have to wonder what Hamilton and Alonso could have done with that car. Even in 2018 Bottas was beaten by two Ferrari's and a Red Bull when they suffered multiple retirements to his one. You can't just say Bottas is useless for that argument whilst not acknowledging Hamilton as being able to make the difference when he's required to. Mercedes have built the class of the field car for so long now that Hamilton hasn't had very many occassions where he's been required to make the difference when most drivers wouldn't, but there have been more than enough examples. That Singapore pole, the wet races Germany 2018, Austria 2020 qualifying and Turkey was mesmerising, not to mention his McLaren days. It's true that drivers aren't able to be as big of a differenciator as they were back in the 80s and before then but the cream of the crop are still given opportunies to make the difference in the modern era and Hamilton time and again takes those opportunies to show his worth. Mercedes would be nuts to not pay for the best driver on the grid to maximise their points tally and just rely on their car each year.

 

Not too far away from the new car launches and winter testing now. Seems to have come around so quickly this year with the way my perception of time is with the covid restrictions. Much of the news and rumours about the prospects of this car have somehow passed me by though. Still a bit sad that we won't see DAS again this year. Clearly a lot of time and effort was put into the system so it's a shame it was taken away so quickly. Kind of hope we'll see another surprise device from a team on the grid this year but seems unlikely in the final year of these regulations.

Wasn't 2018 the year that Bottas was used as a blocker in some races?

[EndlessMotion]

Wasn't 2018 the year that Bottas was used as a blocker in some races?

Oh yeah for sure. After that awful luck with the puncture in Azerbaijan he was pretty much out of it by mid-season. That was probably the biggest reason he was pipped by Kimi and Max in the end but he still finished 73 points behind Vettel and could easily have finished 3rd again even if he wasn't playing the role of a pawn for the second half of the season.

[GoldenColt]

I have a strange feeling regarding their prospects for this season, unlike the last 7 seasons. Even in 2019 after Ferrari looked to be the team to beat after winter testing I didn't worry too much. We'll see.

https://www.motorspo...mpaign=widget-1

 

 

[Marklar]

you guys will fall for this yet again

[ARTGP]

https://www.motorspo...mpaign=widget-1

 

 

 

Not so fast  . This is just like last year. Crap during testing, flawless for most of the season. Ferrari, Renault and Honda would love to be battling the issues Mercedes have right now 

Edited by ARTGP, 12 February 2021 - 17:43.

[GoldenColt]

you guys will fall for this yet again

I'm willing to bet 5€ that this time it will be different.

[MasterOfCoin]

[Anja]

Hey, maybe they're telling the truth but the "issue" is that they only have 50HP increase instead of planned 60 

[shure]

this is standard Merc fare.  Oh we're in trouble, we're worried about the opposition etc and then when the lights go out in the first race they leave everyone in their dust.  

[Paco]

If your view is that the Merc and the RB are close in performance then I don't think there's much to discuss here.  I have to be honest and say that's a position which really ignores all the evidence we have.  You only have to look at the qualifying gaps to note that the it's unrealistic to put that all down to driver.  The opening race was half a second.  Ignoring the second race (rain) the qualifying gaps to Max in the opening races were 1.3s, 0.7s, 1s, 0.6s.  We then had a brief anomaly at Spa where they were neck and neck (although given the gap to Lewis I'd suggest that was just a poor qualifying from Bottas), before normal business was resumed with 0.8s at the following race.  If you're saying that Bottas is that much faster than Max over a single lap then I think you're being a tad optimistic and not giving the car anywhere near enough credit.  I will say that in the second half of the season things closed up a bit but by Toto's own admission they switched development to 2021 very soon after the start of the year so the car didn't improve much from its baseline at the start.  The fact that despite that it was still ahead by the end just shows what a monster it was.

 

The Merc is unquestionably the class of the field.  Mercedes have produced unrivalled excellence these last few years and to suggest it's even in a fight with Red Bull just ignores what's really out there.  I think you might have too romantic an idea of what a driver can bring to the table in modern F1

 

That's like saying RB didn't come of the gate with a bad chassis.  I'm saying the engine disadvantage of Honda could be easily overcome by a better chassis by RB.  Additionally, we never saw what we saw before at RB with DR that a driver is capable of out racing and out qualifying Max so there was time left behind at some tracks due to Albon and Gasly.  

 

Hopefully, this year Perez will be on it and we will see how much a driver actually makes a difference even in these cars.  Thats all.  I do feel last year, RB was even better then it showed cause of Albon abysmal year.  So had their other driver kept Bottas was more honest, Max AND RB would have been way closer.  Such that, Mercedes probably won't have let of the gas design wise or even as hinted ran a detuned car at the last race to evaluate changes for 2021.

[ARTGP]

Hey, maybe they're telling the truth but the "issue" is that they only have 50HP increase instead of planned 60 

 

But actually....  

 

Mercedes don't have a pattern of messing up the smaller regs tweaks ('17,'19). So I'm comfortable assuming it will be business as usual. There is a first time for everything, sure, but we've been saying that for 7 years 

Edited by ARTGP, 12 February 2021 - 18:27.

[Paco]

Hey, maybe they're telling the truth but the "issue" is that they only have 50HP increase instead of planned 60 

 

I do think the restrictions are going to adversely effect them as a result of the previously cautious way of proceeding.  They really cant anymore and need to break out of that mold.  I can see a Diva'ish 2021 this year... 

 

This engine thing may also work it way into maybe all this 1yr contracts etc...  maybe both parties knew whats up and are anxious about 1.  overpaying for a driver that isn't going to make a difference if they fall to 3rd place on the grid.  2.  Maybe a driver was anxious about signing on for a locked in PU that may not be what it was before and seeing a team that hits it peak perhaps may start to go over the cliff and slide down a bit..

 

1st 1/3rd of the year getting even more interesting then it already was with all the champs in great drivers and the best top 9 of the grid (minus Stroll) in a very long time.  Interesting Lando saying that the Mercedes PU integrated better then the Renault..

[ARTGP]

I do think the restrictions are going to adversely effect them as a result of the previously cautious way of proceeding.  They really cant anymore and need to break out of that mold.  I can see a Diva'ish 2021 this year... 

 

Like the '17 and '19 regs tweaks?    Business as usual. 

Edited by ARTGP, 12 February 2021 - 18:28.

[shure]

That's like saying RB didn't come of the gate with a bad chassis.  I'm saying the engine disadvantage of Honda could be easily overcome by a better chassis by RB.  Additionally, we never saw what we saw before at RB with DR that a driver is capable of out racing and out qualifying Max so there was time left behind at some tracks due to Albon and Gasly.  

 

Hopefully, this year Perez will be on it and we will see how much a driver actually makes a difference even in these cars.  Thats all.  I do feel last year, RB was even better then it showed cause of Albon abysmal year.  So had their other driver kept Bottas was more honest, Max AND RB would have been way closer.  Such that, Mercedes probably won't have let of the gas design wise or even as hinted ran a detuned car at the last race to evaluate changes for 2021.

In the Hamilton thread you said evidence was needed, but here you're just claiming there was more to RB's speed without anything at all to back it up.  You may as well say the Merc had more to offer but Bottas wasn't challenging Lewis so Lewis let it slide.  There's no basis for either claim.  

[w1Y]

I would be surprised if no teams had issues at this stage because if they didn't then they probably aren't pushing it enough. The question is how big are those issues and are they fixable.

[ExEd]

I would be surprised if no teams had issues at this stage because if they didn't then they probably aren't pushing it enough. The question is how big are those issues and are they fixable.

 

Yes, its sad its one of those matters that cant go on public in detail.

Would be so interesting to know what has changed on the new PU and what is causing the problem. 

Ether way it doesn't sound good. Hopefully they will be able to overcome without compromising any performance added  . 

[Paco]

Like the '17 and '19 regs tweaks?    Business as usual. 

 

Here is to hoping.. plus i want McLaren in the mix so all the better if they sort out the PU.

[Paco]

In the Hamilton thread you said evidence was needed, but here you're just claiming there was more to RB's speed without anything at all to back it up.  You may as well say the Merc had more to offer but Bottas wasn't challenging Lewis so Lewis let it slide.  There's no basis for either claim.  

 

Nope.

 

Lewis was on point most of it and when he wasn't, sure Bottas nipped him a few times.  Their times were so close both got the most of it.

RB on the other hand, only 1 driver remotely in it.  So on the days where he wasn't at his best, like Riccardo did.. he would have been outqualified and outrace.  Unfortunately due to the senile old man there. we were robbed of that for 2 years.  So yeah, had a Riccardo been there.. RB would "may" have won more and the very very least would have had 2-3 or 1-2 way more then they did.  Which would have destablized the mid-season compaign.. may have lead Mercedes to inact team orders and shuffield it a lot more.  But we rob of its due to RB belief in young drivers.   So we can't know if that RB chassis was even better then Max lead on.. but the fact the gap was so big, the fact no one came close to him last year and how close he was to Lewis-Bottas is PROOF alone that car was way better then it was discussed.. but of poor 2nd drivers.  We will never know, but that is my belief based of data "Max-Riccardo" pairing and how close people can actually run on Max.

 

Hopefully, Perez can do what Riccardo did or more.   And show how important a driver Lewis is vs just fanboy nonsense of replacing him with Russell.  Not that Russell isn't better then Albon or Gasly.. but we still do not know cause he's paired up with drivers that are not great and in a team he has no place being in.  Latifi is fine for Williams, Russell should not be there.  But at the same time, he shouldn't be at Merc yet.  

 

So performance wise, I don't think Mercedes had that great of an edge and Lewis was the difference maker, they got lucky Max had a few engine issues and a chassis they didn't get right out of the gate.    Had 1-2 Honda issues not come out, had Newey done a better job in Dec... we would be having a very different discussion.

Edited by Paco, 12 February 2021 - 20:42.

[ARTGP]

Here is to hoping.. plus i want McLaren in the mix so all the better if they sort out the PU.

 

Yes, I figure with Mercedes supplying 4 teams this season, the probability is very low that they come to Bahrain and embarrass the entire brand with 8 faulty power units. There's way too much on the line. It will be business as usual  (i.e little to no issues) in my mind.

Edited by ARTGP, 12 February 2021 - 20:43.

[P123]

you guys will fall for this yet again

 

The late start to the season probably helped them out a bit last year.  And this year they do face some restrictions on dyno running.  So I can see how this year could be different to last in terms of all boxes being ticked from the off.