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Williams to become Alpine junior team?


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#1 cjm321190

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 15:45

Just seen this,

https://www.planetf1...ne-junior-team/

Mentions Williams are in line for being the Alpine junior team from 2022. Includes engines in return for Renault junior driver slots. Seems a backwards step in my view.

But I guess planet F1 are not so reliable and just click bating I hope.

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#2 Imperial

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 15:48

I thought that is what Sauber are destined to become?

Is the Renault Junior Squad the new 'BWT potentially going to everybody' story?!

#3 flingsofdeon

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 15:52

I received an email from an NYC-based investment firm raising funds for a team. I haven’t yet replied, but I assumed straight off the bat it was for Williams...so, tie-ups / strategic partnerships like this are no surprise.

#4 Risil

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:16

A team like Williams is always going have to take someone's junior drivers. The Merc junior driver has been noticeably quicker than the one bringing their own money, of course.



#5 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:20

Just imagine 30 years ago that someone told you that mighty Williams will one day became Toleman's junior team.

#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:33

I don’t really have the same love for the new faceless Williams since the family left. But really, can we not have any junior teams? F1 is just slowly becoming DTM (pre-GT3).

It’s bad enough that we ostensibly only have 10 teams, but in reality we’re heading towards just four: Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Red Bull.



#7 Lerdes

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:37

Nice. I think Williams was just a appendicitis for Mercedes. Give Alpine a try. Maybe in 2022 it is one of the better options.

#8 dierome87

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:38

It's a bit sad but I guess it may be the only way for them to survive in the medium to short term. 

 

Moreover, they kind of have been Mercedes' junior team since 2014. A more formal arrangement with Renault/Apline surely can't hurt.



#9 maximilian

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:40

 Seems a backwards step in my view.

 

If Williams go any more backwards, they're gonna be in F2.



#10 garoidb

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:53

This basically means that George Russell can't still be there in 2022, doesn't it? 



#11 dannyricsshoe

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:56

Sad state of affairs but it's not like it wasn't already happening with Mercedes. Williams used to be the place to drive.

#12 FLB

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 16:58

This basically means that George Russell can't still be there in 2022, doesn't it? 

Bingo. They may be playing hardball with Toto if Toto isn't sure he wants Russell yet.

 

Or why Hamilton only went for a one year deal, knowing Russell will be in a Merc regardless of who he wants as a teammate,



#13 Marklar

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:09

This basically means that George Russell can't still be there in 2022, doesn't it?

it was believed last year that had RB not shown interest in Perez Russell might have been dropped already this year. I think this was always going to be the case for 2022, no matter if they switch to Renault or not

#14 alframsey

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:12

This is not exactly a statement of intent from the new owners is it?



#15 DoodoolTalla

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:17

They really should have listened to papa Stroll more back then.



#16 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:23

Yeah, they could have been Aston Martin right now...

#17 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:25

This is not exactly a statement of intent from the new owners is it?


It’s the same as the Alfa tie up with sauber isn’t it?

The only intent the new owners have, will be to put in as little of their own cash as possible and take as much out when the cost cap makes the team profitable

#18 Francesc

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:37

They really should have listened to papa Stroll more back then.

 

Yeah, the man who hired Paddy Lowe.



#19 jonpollak

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:46

WHAT?...
Can we go back to 1992 please.

Jeez.
Jp

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#20 Lerdes

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 17:55

Yeah, they could have been Aston Martin right now...


And put everything away of their legacy. I don't like this Aston Martin team and I wish them no luck at all.

#21 pdac

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 18:34

And put everything away of their legacy. I don't like this Aston Martin team and I wish them no luck at all.

 

With you there.



#22 Paco

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 18:56

Yeah, the man who hired Paddy Lowe.

 

The same Paddy that had ZERO resources, the same lack of Resources Claire goes on about as a her reason for failure the last few years and threw Paddy under the bus.. if you have nothing to work with, can't pay suppliers .. how are you supposed to go on a build a proper team/car..

 

Sorry... but Paddy didn't do great but he came from a big team and into a failed broke squad.. was never going to work regardless of capability.



#23 Paco

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:00

I don’t really have the same love for the new faceless Williams since the family left. But really, can we not have any junior teams? F1 is just slowly becoming DTM (pre-GT3).

It’s bad enough that we ostensibly only have 10 teams, but in reality we’re heading towards just four: Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Red Bull.

 

Sadly, hasn't been slow.   Its also Rich that Haas complaining Mercedes killing F1.. LOL.  Haas and their model is killing F1 far far more.

 

Sadly it hasn't been slow.  Its been this for a while. 

 

Its F1 at the front 5 teams and F3 at the back 5 teams.  There all just buying kits, not getting how they work and lapping without ANY chance of actually competing.  It has nothing to do with the PUs.  

 

Hopefully 2023-2024 will resolve this F3 in F1 problem.

 

Im so sick of B and C-teams in F1.  Williams now seem to be going down that path which is sad.

 

Who would have thought F1 with Virgin and Manor was more F1 then Alfa and Williams.. 

 

Haas is a big problem in F1.. complaining about it is just rude.  Now Williams going down that path..



#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:01

WHAT?...
Can we go back to 1992 please.

Jeez.
Jp

 

I'd prefer 1996 to be honest.



#25 Imperial

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:09

I do wish the new owners would change the name.

It isn't Williams, so why call it that.

#26 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:13

I do wish the new owners would change the name.

It isn't Williams, so why call it that.

 

I guess we'd have to rename Ferrari, McLaren,... Actually, are any teams other than Haas owned by their founders at this stage?



#27 jonpollak

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:16

I'd prefer 1996 to be honest.

Yeah but think of all the build up..

Jp



#28 absinthedude

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:23

They have the legal right to call it Williams, and I guess still have mostly WIlliams staff including some senior people. But it certainly doesn't feel the same.

 

Old man Ferrari sold to FIAT nearly 20 years before he died but remained chairman until the day he died. McLaren continued to be run by the people who worked alongside Bruce, indeed Tyler Alexander was still there in the Lewis Hamilton years. In time perhaps Williams will feel like Williams again....but if they become a junior team for any manufacturer they should change their name. 



#29 cpbell

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:55

Just imagine 30 years ago that someone told you that mighty Williams will one day became Toleman's junior team.

That's a heck of a thought!  Mid you, they were Benetton by then.  ;)



#30 cpbell

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 19:57

This basically means that George Russell can't still be there in 2022, doesn't it? 

 

 

Bingo. They may be playing hardball with Toto if Toto isn't sure he wants Russell yet.

 

Or why Hamilton only went for a one year deal, knowing Russell will be in a Merc regardless of who he wants as a teammate,

My "unlikely predictions" thread comment that Russell will leave F1 at the end of the year due to not having a drive might be accurate!



#31 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 20:06

I don’t really have the same love for the new faceless Williams since the family left. But really, can we not have any junior teams? F1 is just slowly becoming DTM (pre-GT3).

It’s bad enough that we ostensibly only have 10 teams, but in reality we’re heading towards just four: Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Red Bull.

To be honest, I don't have love for the old Williams team as well, and never had.  I know the team was important to F1, but it was also always notorious for its abusive management environment.  It's kind of hard to root for abusive bosses, even if they're not your abusive bosses.



#32 flatoutflatbroke

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 20:27

Williams from now on will be the pragmatic business approach, not 'fiercely independent' as it was with the Williams family, so whatever is the best deal and makes sense for the business will be the route taken. We won't see Dorlin selling everything they have to keep two cars on the track like SFW did.



#33 ARTGP

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 20:34

Likewise, I have not had true love for Williams since they split from BMW and Montoya back in the day. Ever since then, with the Toyota, the Renault, the Merc power, it's just a team with the name for me. I'm happy if they do well, because we need more teams contributing to the show at the sharp end, but still doesn't feel the same anymore. I'm ok with that though. It is what it is. They are just another team on the grid who I would hope can mix it up at the front.


Edited by ARTGP, 25 February 2021 - 20:35.


#34 wj_gibson

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 20:50

Just imagine 30 years ago that someone told you that mighty Williams will one day became Toleman's junior team.

Or, indeed, imagine watching Adelaide ‘94 and imagining Williams as Benetton’s puppy.



#35 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 20:58

Or that McLaren would take engines from Tyrrell who would win 7xwdc and WCC on the trot

#36 Calum

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 21:24

This basically means that George Russell can't still be there in 2022, doesn't it? 

 

He could negotiate a reverse-Ocon!  :lol:



#37 Rjpscr

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 21:29

Not really sure how I feel about this if there is any truth to it. 



#38 Paco

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 21:55

I guess we'd have to rename Ferrari, McLaren,... Actually, are any teams other than Haas owned by their founders at this stage?

 

My post got removed so I'll reword it.

 

There is a difference.  Absolutely.

 

Has nothing to do about Founders but the spirit of the teams and the uniqueness that Williams brought to the grid.  If they do not hold to the values and position of Williams family brought to F1.  Then why keep the name.  A lot of teams that were purchased changed their names.. so why hasn't this happened in 2021.. .

 

If they don't think or operate as Williams did.. then just change the name.



#39 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 21:58

My post got removed so I'll reword it.

 

There is a difference.  Absolutely.

 

Has nothing to do about Founders but the spirit of the teams and the uniqueness that Williams brought to the grid.  If they do not hold to the values and position of Williams family brought to F1.  Then why keep the name.  A lot of teams that were purchased changed their names.. so why hasn't this happened in 2021.. .

 

If they don't think or operate as Williams did.. then just change the name.

 

It's the same thing. Look at McLaren especially. Ron Dennis' Project 4 brought a completely new culture to the team that had been Bruce's, and current McLaren is different again. They haven't thought or operated as Bruce did for decades.

 

How about Ferrari. The dream team under Todt, Brawn, et al certainly didn't think or operate as Enzo did.



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#40 jonpollak

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 22:08

it was also always notorious for its abusive management environment.  It's kind of hard to root for abusive bosses, even if they're not your abusive bosses.

WTF?

No it wasn't.

I had a peripheral involvement with them at a some races in '97 and outside of having to listen to Patrick scream every time David Brown put whatever he and Jacques thought was right on the car, for their ever evolving set up, but I'd say the vibe was very friendly.

David Brown would laugh it off, write it all down, before switching over (or appearing to switch over) to what Patrick decided was best before putting it back to what was required after PH was satisfied he 'retained control'. That was the only weird thing and nowhere near 'abusive' as you say.

As a matter of fact the 'bosses' as you call them were so kind to the crew and staff that they'd do anything for the race team and kept moral extremely high.

 

Unless you know something I don't, which is highly unlikely as you're one of those internet persons, I call hearsay with a generous side serving of uninformed bias.

 

Jp



#41 NixxxoN

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 22:38

That's the only thing that was left.

There was talk of having 3 car teams on F1... Well, now we got 4 car teams, in the case of Ferrari maybe even 6. Only McLaren left out alone

 

Very very sad to see what F1 is becoming. It's slowly getting destroyed


Edited by NixxxoN, 25 February 2021 - 22:39.


#42 FLB

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 22:56

Yeah but think of all the build up..

Jp

The build-up was my favourite driver (all-time)  being on the front row of a Grand Prix for the first time since 1983...

 

(Patrese, Brazil 1989)



#43 pdac

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 22:57

That's the only thing that was left.

There was talk of having 3 car teams on F1... Well, now we got 4 car teams, in the case of Ferrari maybe even 6. Only McLaren left out alone

 

Very very sad to see what F1 is becoming. It's slowly getting destroyed

 

Slowly?



#44 Fastcake

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 23:26

It's a bit sad but I guess it may be the only way for them to survive in the medium to short term. 

 

Moreover, they kind of have been Mercedes' junior team since 2014. A more formal arrangement with Renault/Apline surely can't hurt.

They were never a Mercedes junior team. Williams brought engines and have given a seat to someone who happens to be a Mercedes junior driver for the past two years, but that was it. Williams were racing Mercedes  on track (when they had a car that could do that), were not reliant on Mercedes for any technology outside the engine, were not automatically giving Mercedes one of their seats and very much had their own agenda off track.

 

Williams under Frank and Clare had fallen quite far by the end, but were proudly still an independent team. What they will be as the Alpine junior team remains to be seen. I'm not hopeful.



#45 NixxxoN

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Posted 25 February 2021 - 23:38

Slowly?

Well it started back in 2006 with RB / TR



#46 Paco

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Posted 26 February 2021 - 00:55

It's the same thing. Look at McLaren especially. Ron Dennis' Project 4 brought a completely new culture to the team that had been Bruce's, and current McLaren is different again. They haven't thought or operated as Bruce did for decades.

 

How about Ferrari. The dream team under Todt, Brawn, et al certainly didn't think or operate as Enzo did.

 

Those are car manufacturers and branded road cars.  So not apples 2 apples, Sorry.

 

Lotus 2.0 tried and failed to be the company they were.

 

Williams 2.0 is quickly showing itself to not be the team it was founded on a guided themselves until its sale.  Fiercely independant.  Sure everyone gets buying a bit of extra kit for 2021 and even 2022 while they reset and see what the new car gen brings.  But being sub servant team to a manufacturer IS NOT WILLIAMS.

 

So go ahead and do that like others have, but why keep an identity that is not yours..   Its legal sure.  Many are doing these ridiculous tie-ups and destroying F1 in the process - Haas being the most flagrant..

 

If the owners dont want to keep to the values then there is zero reason to keep the name.  Stroll wasted no time with FI to RP.  Just as most team take overs have done.  It more ridiculous that the Williams names racing on in 2021 or into 2022 with such a different attitude and approach.   Sauber name being the last of the last to float in out of F1..   All the others have left, even Renault in name.  It may well be time for the Williams to cease, as sad as it was last season..



#47 MKSixer

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Posted 26 February 2021 - 01:08

Just imagine 30 years ago that someone told you that mighty Williams will one day became Toleman's junior team.

Add the above to the following list of sad statements:

 

Drive to a delta.

Drive to makes parts last longer.

Lift and coast.

Fernando is faster than you.

Finish the race at the slowest speed possible.



#48 Paco

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Posted 26 February 2021 - 01:19

Add the above to the following list of sad statements:

 

Drive to a delta.

Drive to makes parts last longer.

Lift and coast.

Fernando is faster than you.

Finish the race at the slowest speed possible.

 

Fully agree.. delta and lift and coast is ridiculous but that isn't a Williams issue but F1.

 

I missed quali laps almost the whole race...



#49 MKSixer

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Posted 26 February 2021 - 01:26

Fully agree.. delta and lift and coast is ridiculous but that isn't a Williams issue but F1.

 

I missed quali laps almost the whole race...

Watching races from the late 90s makes me mad.  Yet I cannot stop.

 

And the Williams issue is a weeping sore of the disease which set root in F1 long ago.


Edited by MKSixer, 26 February 2021 - 01:28.


#50 SparkPlug86

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Posted 26 February 2021 - 02:26

Not sure why you'd consider them being a 'Junior team' to Alpine. If they take a talented Renault junior driver, in exchange for free or heavily discounted power-units, transmissions etc - well, thats good business sense to be honest. And, I suspect they have something similar, but not to the same extent with Mercedes in exchange for them running Russell (yes, they both deny it, but... ).

 

Doesn't make them a junior team in my opinion - they are still free to develop their own car, designed their own way and fight/beat the Alpine works team. If anything, it frees up budget for them to develop the chassis side of things and not worry about allocating resources/money to PU/transmission. 

 

I'd assume, they would have a cockpit free for another 'pay' driver anyway, so... Williams are quite capable of pulling off what Force India/Racing Point have done in recent years and fight for regular points and the odd podium in the short term. No doubt, the current owners would look to cash in at this stage and sell the operation (in time for 2025/2026) to someone with deeper pockets and the desire to promote the team back up the grid to where they belong.

 

Williams, as we all know have taken a mighty big fall and hit every branch on the way down. Yes, they've sold their soul and cash in on their legacy. But if taking a side step to Renault PU and a junior driver is what it takes to move off the bottom of the grid... then fine. Lets face it, Williams wasn't going to move up under the leadership they had (sorry Claire but its true) and this change might be what they need to push back up. Follow the Mclaren model... Christ, we've had 3 different PU's in the time Williams have been with Merc-AMG!


Edited by SparkPlug86, 26 February 2021 - 02:27.