1034 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

absinthedude, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:39, said:

In nearly 43 years of watching F1, I have never heard of the Autodrome Hermanos Rodriguez referred to as a street circuit. 

I have. On F1 broadcasts. In articles. Etc. 

 

Call it whatever you want though. My point is not that it's really a street race a la Monaco or Baku. My point is that it's mostly on what were originally park roads, just like Melbourne and Montreal are, so any distinction between it and the others is purely arbitrary ... just like F1.com listing Melbourne but not Montreal for some reason.

[AustinF1]

cpbell, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:37, said:

I always think of Monza as a permanent circuit as it was designed from scratch in the early 1920s as a circuit rather than using existing paths or roads within the park.  This then shows Melbourne. AHR and Montreal, like the originaliteration of Donington, to be "parkland circuits" as they use or once used existing roadways within a park, whether private or not.

Good post. I've always thought there must be a better way to describe the circuits in parks that used park roads. 'Parkland circuits' seems very appropriate.

[AustinF1]

PayasYouRace, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:34, said:

You think this is a street circuit?

 

 

It's not, as much as the city has enveloped it.

The city did surround it, but you understand that it's in a park, right? And portions of it were park roads. Were that area not a park, the city would have devoured it.

[PayasYouRace]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:53, said:

The city did surround it, but you understand that it's in a park, right? And portions of it were park roads. Were that area not a park, the city would have devoured it.

But they’re not streets. But in your last few posts you seem to have decided to agree with me that they’re not streets, and that it’s a parkland circuit like I’ve been saying all along.

[cpbell]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:49, said:

Good post. I've always thought there must be a better way to describe the circuits in parks that used park roads. 'Parkland circuits' seems very appropriate.

Thanks.

[Clrnc]

Circuit looks too fast for overtaking, not much braking points. Actually reminds me of Zandvoort but we haven't even been there so not sure what to expect

[AustinF1]

PayasYouRace, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:54, said:

But they’re not streets. But in your last few posts you seem to have decided to agree with me that they’re not streets, and that it’s a parkland circuit like I’ve been saying all along.

That's the first mention of the term 'parkland circuit' I remember seeing from you, and you're missing the point. I've always thought it was weird to call these park circuits 'street circuits' just because they used park roads, but that's been the common nomenclature. The point is that Melbourne, Montreal, and AHR are all the same in that regard - whatever we decide to call them, but only one of them was mentioned by F1.com. It's not that big of a deal. I just thought it was odd. They should list all of them or none of them.

[PayasYouRace]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 18:08, said:

That's the first mention of the term 'parkland circuit' I remember seeing from you, and you're missing the point. I've always thought it was weird to call these park circuits 'street circuits' just because they used park roads, but that's been the common nomenclature. The point is that Melbourne, Montreal, and AHR are all the same in that regard - whatever we decide to call them, but only one of them was mentioned by F1.com. It's not that big of a deal. I just thought it was odd. They should list all of them or none of them.

Well feel free to be confused as to why F1 doesn’t call it’s circuit that isn’t a street circuit a street circuit. And Mexico is in a group with Monza, as it’s a permanent track, as I said before.

[AustinF1]

PayasYouRace, on 18 Mar 2021 - 18:17, said:

Well feel free to be confused as to why F1 doesn’t call it’s circuit that isn’t a street circuit a street circuit. And Mexico is in a group with Monza, as it’s a permanent track, as I said before.

LOL. OK. Like I said before, I think we can both agree that AHR, Montreal, and Melbourne would be more appropriately called 'parkland circuits', but I'm not sure why you can't admit they're in the same boat, having used pre-existing park roads for parts of the circuits. If AHR isn't a street circuit (or whatever you want to call it), then neither are Melbourne and Montreal. 

 

I've mentioned several times that F1.com mentioned Melbourne without mentioning Montreal. Why do you persist in focusing only on AHR and ignore Montreal being left out? It seems like you just want to be argumentative about one portion of what I'm saying while completely ignoring the rest and, really, ignoring my true point.

Edited by AustinF1, 18 March 2021 - 18:37.

[PayasYouRace]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 18:28, said:

LOL. OK. Like I said before, I think we can both agree that AHR, Montreal, and Melbourne would be more appropriately called 'parkland circuits', but I'm not sure why you can't admit they're in the same boat as having used pre-existing park roads for parts of the circuits. If AHR isn't a street circuit (or whatever you want to call it), then neither are Melbourne and Montreal. 

I never said Melbourne and Montreal were street circuits. I called them temporary road courses. The street circuits are Monaco, Singapore and Baku. Jeddah looks likely will be like Sochi, a permanent, or possibly semi-permanent, urban circuit.

[absinthedude]

cpbell, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:42, said:

Statistically, it is likely that at least one driver, TP or senior engineer in F1 is gay, as estimates seem to suggest that 2% of men are.  There are also plenty of women in F1 these days.  I doubt either will feel comfortable at this race, TBQH.  Also, there was one openly gay F1 driver:

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/56141363

 

There have been rumours of course, but Mike Buettler remains the only openly gay F1 driver to date. I think Lella Lombardi was a lesbian so we have one woman too. Down the years there must have been drivers of various sexualities.....but the motor sport world is still not the kind of place a LGBTQIA+ (or GSRD as I prefer) person is likely to feel comfortable or supported if they are out. 

 

GSRD = gender, sexuality or relationship diverse.....so anyone not cis-het-monogomous-vanilla. More inclusive of various non-mainstream relationship styles and less letters in the acronym.

[pdac]

I'm sure that not everyone who can be categorised under the LGBTQ+ label is an ardent campaigner and activist for LGBTQ+ rights and causes - just like not every woman actively campaigns for women's rights or every afro-Caribbean lobbies for black rights all of the time.

[cpbell]

pdac, on 18 Mar 2021 - 18:51, said:

I'm sure that not everyone who can be categorised under the LGBTQ+ label is an ardent campaigner and activist for LGBTQ+ rights and causes - just like not every woman actively campaigns for women's rights or every afro-Caribbean lobbies for black rights all of the time.

True, but a country that still has women in prison for driving without a man in the car is going to be less popular with other women I'd have thought than somewhere that, while paternalistic, is less extreme.

[pdac]

cpbell, on 18 Mar 2021 - 19:11, said:

True, but a country that still has women in prison for driving without a man in the car is going to be less popular with other women I'd have thought than somewhere that, while paternalistic, is less extreme.

 

I may be wrong, but I imagine a lot of people visit the country each year and many of them are female. I can't see the grand prix visiting community would be very different from the wider world.

[AustinF1]

PayasYouRace, on 18 Mar 2021 - 18:30, said:

I never said Melbourne and Montreal were street circuits. I called them temporary road courses. The street circuits are Monaco, Singapore and Baku. Jeddah looks likely will be like Sochi, a permanent, or possibly semi-permanent, urban circuit.

OK? My point is that there's no reason to call Melbourne and Montreal one thing and call AHR something else, lumping AHR in with with Monza for some reason. All 3 of Melbourne, Montreal, and AHR are in parks. Portions of all 3 were built on pre-existing park roads. All 3 are in use when racing isn't happening. 

Edited by AustinF1, 18 March 2021 - 19:53.

[William Hunt]

jjcale, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:06, said:

Correct me if I am wrong but there has not been even one openly gay person in F1 in 70 years ... no?

 

 

There has been one in the early '70s: Mike Beuttler.

[r4mses]

The sole fact us talking about the issue of women and (openly) gay people travelling to this race is proof there should be no race at all.

Edited by r4mses, 18 March 2021 - 20:02.

[AustinF1]

r4mses, on 18 Mar 2021 - 19:59, said:

The sole fact us talking about the issue of women and (openly) gay people travelling to this race is proof there should be no race at all.

I hear what you're saying, but what if this is the beginning of change in that regard? I don't know that it is or isn't the beginning of that kind of change, but if it's going to happen, they have to start somewhere.

 

If it is the start of something good, then F1 would be right on the forefront of it. That would be a good thing, imho.

Edited by AustinF1, 18 March 2021 - 20:08.

[cpbell]

pdac, on 18 Mar 2021 - 19:21, said:

I may be wrong, but I imagine a lot of people visit the country each year and many of them are female. I can't see the grand prix visiting community would be very different from the wider world.

Dubai is popular, but I'm not sure regarding Saudi.

[r4mses]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 20:07, said:

I hear what you're saying, but what if this is the beginning of change in that regard? I don't know that it is or isn't the beginning of that kind of change, but if it's going to happen, they have to start somewhere.

 

I don't think sports events - let alone a single F1 race - have the power to kick off or accelerate changes in that regard. There might be two exceptions to this, events so large, they might have an impact: Olympics and Fifa World Cup. Because of their sheer duration of multiple weeks, their large viewership on TV and in the country/cities and in case of the Olympics the athlete's outfits.

 

However I'm afraid we're getting off topic.

[MikeTekRacing]

it looks crazy fast. I want to see cars go through there before I make an opinion.

It's different, it will require a different approach as it poses a different challenge.

[OneLapWonder]

I think only the first part of the track will be hard for drivers to follow. The second part, from the long left hander onwards, seems actually pretty suited. I expect the last corner will have overtakes as well, next to T1.

[wj_gibson]

Unless there’s some major tyre degradation, I can see the field spreading out quite quickly on a layout like that.

[JoshKing]

I'm glad this is only a temporary circuit. Not a huge fan, though I like the banked 'spoon curve' that is turn 13.

[loki]

pdac, on 18 Mar 2021 - 19:21, said:

I may be wrong, but I imagine a lot of people visit the country each year and many of them are female. I can't see the grand prix visiting community would be very different from the wider world.

Until recently tourism in the kingdom wasn’t common. It was difficult for most to get a visa.   Dakar, FE and this race are meant to promote Jeddah as a tourist locale.  As with other places in that neck of the woods there are specific spots for tourists.  The events aren’t for the working class locals.  It’s for the rich and the tourists.  The LGBTQ tourists are tolerated as long as they don’t overtly identify.    Being gay or trans, even cross dressing for a citizen is illegal.  Heavy prison or execution is not uncommon.  Visitors caught on same sex acts in the kingdom are subject to Saudi law.

 

Female, non Muslim tourists are tolerated.  Muslim female tourists need to adhere to Saudi customs.  Female citizens have strict limitations enforced through tradition and law.  These include dress, travel including permission to leave the home and other limitations enforced by a religious police force.  Non Saudi females are looked down on by the local males a good bit of the time.  It’s not a welcoming place for a western female on her own.  Not really a girls night out or hen party sort of place.

[loki]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 20:07, said:

I hear what you're saying, but what if this is the beginning of change in that regard? I don't know that it is or isn't the beginning of that kind of change, but if it's going to happen, they have to start somewhere.

 

If it is the start of something good, then F1 would be right on the forefront of it. That would be a good thing, imho.

The purpose of the race is to promote tourism.  Just like Vegas being interested in a race.  It’s not going to change how the kingdom is ruled.

[AustinF1]

loki, on 19 Mar 2021 - 00:49, said:

The purpose of the race is to promote tourism.  Just like Vegas being interested in a race.  It’s not going to change how the kingdom is ruled.

I doubt it will, either. That's not what I was saying. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt, for the hell of it.

[Nobody]

a less crappy Vietnam circuit

[Leibowitz]

Its somewhat suprising that SA got F1 race before Qatar. 

 

Also, does every other new race needs to be held at night? Kinda devaluates the whole experience.

Edited by Leibowitz, 19 March 2021 - 01:10.

[pdac]

loki, on 19 Mar 2021 - 00:40, said:

Until recently tourism in the kingdom wasn’t common. It was difficult for most to get a visa.   Dakar, FE and this race are meant to promote Jeddah as a tourist locale.  As with other places in that neck of the woods there are specific spots for tourists.  The events aren’t for the working class locals.  It’s for the rich and the tourists.  The LGBTQ tourists are tolerated as long as they don’t overtly identify.    Being gay or trans, even cross dressing for a citizen is illegal.  Heavy prison or execution is not uncommon.  Visitors caught on same sex acts in the kingdom are subject to Saudi law.

 

Female, non Muslim tourists are tolerated.  Muslim female tourists need to adhere to Saudi customs.  Female citizens have strict limitations enforced through tradition and law.  These include dress, travel including permission to leave the home and other limitations enforced by a religious police force.  Non Saudi females are looked down on by the local males a good bit of the time.  It’s not a welcoming place for a western female on her own.  Not really a girls night out or hen party sort of place.

 

I wasn't thinking just about tourists. But, of course, the GP is about tourism (rich tourists).

[SB]

AustinF1, on 18 Mar 2021 - 17:22, said:

Which part are y'all referring to as a COTA copy?

 

The section from Turn 2 to Turn 11 hairpin , just (most likely) without the miles of runoff area.

[AustinF1]

SB, on 19 Mar 2021 - 01:42, said:

The section from Turn 2 to Turn 11 hairpin , just (most likely) without the miles of runoff area.

And without the elevation change present at COTA.

 

The only really similar turn I see there is Jeddah T1, which is very similar in shape to an inverted, reversed COTA T9. In effect that won't be driven the same way at all.

Edited by AustinF1, 19 March 2021 - 15:51.

[kumo7]

LateApex, on 18 Mar 2021 - 15:04, said:

Less need to be resourceful and think creatively around constraints?  You just throw $ at the constraints to disappear, often along with soul and class

 

$0.02

 

In all ways, I do not think this track would survive, albeit with natural causes of development, any longer than a day or two in the formula one race track relevancies, if there is any of such relevancies... 

 

I see no point of the battle where the track builders had confronted and made a masterpiece out of it.

[kumo7]

Ross Stonefeld, on 18 Mar 2021 - 13:57, said:

I feel like this track has just enough fast corners that aren't quite flat out(but maybe they will be once the teams set themselves to the task) to ruin any slipstream. And and even the braking zones don't seem that substantial. Little dabs rather than anchors overboard.

 

I mean in a sense that from la Source to Le omg was a bended straight line for the active cars,...

[HP]

Leibowitz, on 19 Mar 2021 - 01:10, said:

Its somewhat suprising that SA got F1 race before Qatar. 

 

Also, does every other new race needs to be held at night? Kinda devaluates the whole experience.

At first got confused. Thought SA meant South Africa, which for many, including me, in speech is referred to as SA. Official country code of South Africa is however ZA. Maybe using the 3 code country code SAU for Saudia Arabia is less ambiguous?

[FirstnameLastname]

[K20a]

Circuit looks ****in cool, something different too.

[PayasYouRace]

FirstnameLastname, on 19 Mar 2021 - 02:48, said:

 

Hence the term, hairpin bend.

[jjcale]

loki, on 19 Mar 2021 - 00:49, said:

The purpose of the race is to promote tourism.  Just like Vegas being interested in a race.  It’s not going to change how the kingdom is ruled.

 

 

AustinF1, on 19 Mar 2021 - 00:52, said:

I doubt it will, either. That's not what I was saying. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt, for the hell of it.

 

 

pdac, on 19 Mar 2021 - 01:10, said:

I wasn't thinking just about tourists. But, of course, the GP is about tourism (rich tourists).

And why is the tourism being promoted in the oil rich country which does not need the money? 

 

Because the real goal is to try to open up the country.... economically and socially.

 

There are a lot of changes underway in Saudi at the moment - and all of them in the right direction IMHO - if the West pulls back from Saudi it will just strengthen the conservatives (and possibly point them in the direction of China). The current Saudi leadership knows change is necessary and it is doing its best in all the circumstances. 

 

Where the current Saudi leadership is falling down is the war on Yemen and enmity with Iran and Qatar.... if you really want to be a humanitarian, dont campaign against this race because the Saudis are not changing fast enough for your tastes.... instead tell the govt of your own country to stop supporting the Saudi's Western backed war on Yemen. This is an evil that we are all complicit in as it would not take a huge amount of effort for our govts (and therefore ourselves, as we live in democratic countries) to get the Saudis to stand down.  .... never heard of or dont know much about the war in Yemen? ... Im not surprised TBH ... here is a good place to start https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/11/16/ending-the-yemen-war-is-both-a-strategic-and-humanitarian-imperative/ BTW this is the conservative, pro Establishment, Brookings Institution of Washington DC, not some lefty anti-USA/West peaceniks - and they are saying these things.   

[Bleu]

Leibowitz, on 19 Mar 2021 - 01:10, said:

Its somewhat suprising that SA got F1 race before Qatar. 

 

Also, does every other new race needs to be held at night? Kinda devaluates the whole experience.

 

Somehow Saudi Arabian race seemed inevitable after Aramco became one of F1 sponsors.

[Jovanotti]

jjcale, on 19 Mar 2021 - 07:34, said:

And why is the tourism being promoted in the oil rich country which does not need the money? 

 

Because the real goal is to try to open up the country.... economically and socially.

 

There are a lot of changes underway in Saudi at the moment - and all of them in the right direction IMHO - if the West pulls back from Saudi it will just strengthen the conservatives (and possibly point them in the direction of China). The current Saudi leadership knows change is necessary and it is doing its best in all the circumstances. 

I believe it when I see it. The oil will run out eventually and they need to invest for the time after, hence why they're buying assets all around the world and investing in tourism. 

Edited by Jovanotti, 19 March 2021 - 08:34.

[Massa]

Guys who design Ferrari 2019 engine built this track

[Ali_G]

jjcale, on 19 Mar 2021 - 07:34, said:

And why is the tourism being promoted in the oil rich country which does not need the money?

Because the real goal is to try to open up the country.... economically and socially.

There are a lot of changes underway in Saudi at the moment - and all of them in the right direction IMHO - if the West pulls back from Saudi it will just strengthen the conservatives (and possibly point them in the direction of China). The current Saudi leadership knows change is necessary and it is doing its best in all the circumstances.

Where the current Saudi leadership is falling down is the war on Yemen and enmity with Iran and Qatar.... if you really want to be a humanitarian, dont campaign against this race because the Saudis are not changing fast enough for your tastes.... instead tell the govt of your own country to stop supporting the Saudi's Western backed war on Yemen. This is an evil that we are all complicit in as it would not take a huge amount of effort for our govts (and therefore ourselves, as we live in democratic countries) to get the Saudis to stand down. .... never heard of or dont know much about the war in Yemen? ... Im not surprised TBH ... here is a good place to start https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2020/11/16/ending-the-yemen-war-is-both-a-strategic-and-humanitarian-imperative/ BTW this is the conservative, pro Establishment, Brookings Institution of Washington DC, not some lefty anti-USA/West peaceniks - and they are saying these things.

Wahhabists will launch an insurgency against the House of Saud if any true changes happened.

This is but a sticking plaster to give a different view from outsiders looking in and F1 is playing their game for the dirty money they will earn.

The #WeRaceAsOne campaign is a farce in light of this race and other races in despotic locations. A farce.

Edited by Ali_G, 19 March 2021 - 09:35.

[noikeee]

I agree with JJCale that it looks like they're trying at least, to slowly open up the country socially and culturally (whether it'll suceed remains to be seen).

 

I don't think they're doing so because they're now benevolent teddybears though, I think they have an ambitious new head of state that wants to do this because he knows the influence of oil is diminishing and the way to prosperity in the future is to rethink the country a little bit. But make no mistake this new bloke is as brutal and authoritarian as ever, or even more so than the previous management, as shown very boldly when one of the first things that happen under his command is murdering an inconvenient journalist in an embassy in foreign soil.

 

We're straying way far from "racing comments" though so this is my first and last post on this.

 

As for F1, whether going there helps the nice side of opening up the country, or condones/gives legitimacy to the absolutely brutal authoritarian regime, depends on the point of view. But it's kinda both isn't it. Now of course Formula 1 official PR would very much like to focus on the former, hiding the latter under a pile of cash...

 

As for the circuit layout, I'm a bit of a racing circuit design nerd so I like to look at it irrespective of location and politics etc. I think if you tell a designer "here's a completely flat piece of land in an uninteresting city in the desert, build an interesting race track on it, oh and it needs to abide by modern track design standards so don't you dare doing it without tarmac runoffs everywhere" - under these constraints it looks like a pretty damn good job. But do i miss green bits and up and down slopes, and have to concede it looks potentially highly dull and soulless? Yes. Also whilst I'm not a fan of designing tracks purely thinking of overtaking spots, I'm not sure almost ignoring it altogether is the right way to go. Best tracks sometimes are the ones that have the least amount of corners, not the most. But there's a space on the calendar for highly fiddly bits, we don't need all tracks to be the same. This one does have its interesting unique quirks.

Edited by noikeee, 19 March 2021 - 10:13.

[Bloggsworth]

A whole raft  of songs spring to mind - "Money Money Money;" "Gimme Money That'sWhat I Want;" "I Want It All..." F1 has no business being there, but hey, when does the death of innocents close the banks?

[pdac]

HP, on 19 Mar 2021 - 02:47, said:

At first got confused. Thought SA meant South Africa, which for many, including me, in speech is referred to as SA. Official country code of South Africa is however ZA. Maybe using the 3 code country code SAU for Saudia Arabia is less ambiguous?

 

Look up ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2, ISO 639-3 ISO 639-4, ISO 639-5, ISO 639-6, ISO 3166 and IETF and see how confused standards institutes (and people like me who have to write programs to cater for many different regions and languages) are.

[BRG]

r4mses, on 18 Mar 2021 - 19:59, said:

The sole fact us talking about the issue of women and (openly) gay people travelling to this race is proof there should be no race at all.

People are talking about women from a prejudiced point of view and a lack of knowledge.  Formula E has raced in SA twice.  They have women team members, including a TP, Susie Woolf.  So no problem there.  The first FE event included the Jaguar SUV support race, and that had female drivers.  So no problem there either.  As for the alphabet soup of alternative lifestyles etc, there are just as many people in that category living in SA as there are anywhere else.  As long as visitors respect local mores, there will be no problem there either

 

There is a lot wrong with Saudi Arabia socially, but there is no need to invent stuff.

 

Nobody, on 19 Mar 2021 - 01:06, said:

a less crappy Vietnam circuit

Damned by faint praise.

[absinthedude]

BRG, on 19 Mar 2021 - 11:00, said:

People are talking about women from a prejudiced point of view and a lack of knowledge.  Formula E has raced in SA twice.  They have women team members, including a TP, Susie Woolf.  So no problem there.  The first FE event included the Jaguar SUV support race, and that had female drivers.  So no problem there either.  As for the alphabet soup of alternative lifestyles etc, there are just as many people in that category living in SA as there are anywhere else.  As long as visitors respect local mores, there will be no problem there either

 

There is a lot wrong with Saudi Arabia socially, but there is no need to invent stuff.

 

Damned by faint praise.

 

 

And what do you think the country is like for the women who actually live there?

[NixxxoN]

Yet another soulless urban track and another "middle east oil money GP". Yawn

[Ivanhoe]

I see this whole event as marketing, just heavily paid PR to make the kingdom look beter than it is. Just like the Quatar World Cup football. Shame that FIA and FIFA collaborate with such regimes, but who’s surprised.