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#1 Murrayf1

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 14:20

Hi,

I have a brother in the US and we both follow F1, he recons there is no limits to what the pits can tell the driver over the radio and I said there is still certain things the pits can not tell the driver over the radio so the pits are not coaching the driver, what are the 2021 regulations on Pit to Car communication's?

Regards MW



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 16:17

Everything is allowed, the only exception is the formation lap. There they have to stay silent unless there is a major safety issue



#3 Murrayf1

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 16:39

Many Thanks, I guess IL be eating Humble Pie for tea



#4 GreenMachine

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 20:15

So when did the coaching ban get lifted?



#5 ANF

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 21:04

It was introduced before the 2016 Australian GP (round 1) https://www.motorspo...-677934/677934/
and lifted before the 2016 German GP (round 12) https://www.motorspo...-rules/3222387/

 

It was at the European GP in Baku (round 8) that Lewis Hamilton had this power issue:
 "Derates everywhere. I'm sure that's not helping. Is there no solution for this?"
 "We are working on it, Lewis."
 "You guys need to pick up the pace... Can I not reset this thing?"
 "Okay, Lewis, so the problem appears to be with the current mode that you're in."
 "I don't know what you mean, man. I don't know what's wrong."
 "Yeah, copy that, Lewis. Hard to say what it is..."
 "This is ridiculous, guys! I don't know... I'm looking at my fricking dash every five seconds trying to find a switch that's in the wrong position! I haven't changed anything or done something any wrong as far as I'm aware."
 "Yeah, Lewis, it's nothing that you're doing wrong. Just got a setting that's incorrect."
 "Is it HPP?"
 "Er, I'm afraid I can't say, Lewis."
 "Bono, I might not finish this race, 'cause I'm gonna try and change everything..."
 "Er, we don't advise that, Lewis!"
 "Can I make suggestions and you say if it's okay or not?"
 "Nope, that's not allowed! Let's just get our heads down and focus on the job."


Edited by ANF, 31 March 2021 - 21:06.


#6 Bleu

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 21:12

There were two penalties given IIRC. Rosberg got 10 seconds in Britain which dropped him from 2nd to 3rd while Button got drive through in Hungary



#7 noikeee

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 21:16

Uhm wow, I had no idea, I thought driver coaching was still banned.

Only late to the news by 5 years!! 🤣

#8 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 06:05

Hi, well the point you have made seems to be a useful turn around in helping the driver to run the car but I suppose the point I was making was actual coaching ie: telling a driver he is not hitting corner 5 hard enough and take corner 6 central rather than hugging the curb which is coaching and not an issue with keeping the car running, is this type of communication allowed?

 

MW



#9 Clatter

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 07:44

Hi, well the point you have made seems to be a useful turn around in helping the driver to run the car but I suppose the point I was making was actual coaching ie: telling a driver he is not hitting corner 5 hard enough and take corner 6 central rather than hugging the curb which is coaching and not an issue with keeping the car running, is this type of communication allowed?

MW

Yes.

#10 wheadon1985

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 08:27

Just watch the onboard from Lando's last two laps in Austria 2020 when he scored his 1st podium. 

 

https://www.youtube....bed/XgXo0509S28



#11 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 09:23

Hi, That is the first time I have seen that and it make's you wonder who is driving the car, I suppose you could say that all the information given to Norris could have been given to him on the pit board but to have so much information given in such a short space of time comes as close as you could get to the pits driving the car as you could get. Back in the day Mansell did not like anti skid brakes because the driver should be able to control the car not technology, like it or not time moves on I suppose.



#12 Risil

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 09:29

It was introduced before the 2016 Australian GP (round 1) https://www.motorspo...-677934/677934/
and lifted before the 2016 German GP (round 12) https://www.motorspo...-rules/3222387/

 

It was at the European GP in Baku (round 8) that Lewis Hamilton had this power issue:
 "Derates everywhere. I'm sure that's not helping. Is there no solution for this?"
 "We are working on it, Lewis."
 "You guys need to pick up the pace... Can I not reset this thing?"
 "Okay, Lewis, so the problem appears to be with the current mode that you're in."
 "I don't know what you mean, man. I don't know what's wrong."
 "Yeah, copy that, Lewis. Hard to say what it is..."
 "This is ridiculous, guys! I don't know... I'm looking at my fricking dash every five seconds trying to find a switch that's in the wrong position! I haven't changed anything or done something any wrong as far as I'm aware."
 "Yeah, Lewis, it's nothing that you're doing wrong. Just got a setting that's incorrect."
 "Is it HPP?"
 "Er, I'm afraid I can't say, Lewis."
 "Bono, I might not finish this race, 'cause I'm gonna try and change everything..."
 "Er, we don't advise that, Lewis!"
 "Can I make suggestions and you say if it's okay or not?"
 "Nope, that's not allowed! Let's just get our heads down and focus on the job."

 

Thank you, this has made my day



#13 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 11:34

Hi Risil, Not sure why you sent me the radio communication between Lewis and Bono again the communication that took place was more to do with keeping the car going ie: Lewis " Ha man the car wont start. Bono "Have tried turning the key"  Lewis "Ok man that worked a treat"  The you tube video of Norris had his pit man virtually driving his car for him



#14 GreenMachine

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 11:58

Yes a bit OTT.

 

Having said that, it was interesting insight into the adjustability of the car, given they wanted to close the gap to inside 5 secs to knock Lewis off the podium.  The setting were I assume all engine settings, to screw as much power out as possible.  The actual driving was all Lando's own work, unlike the radio instructions (to Lewis?) which led to the ban.



#15 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 12:29

Hi GreenMachine, Yes Norris did drive the car but was told over the radio how to get the best out of the car and the track, is there any written rules from the FIA regarding radio communications that laymen like our selves can look at or is it all hear say and YouTube video's we have to go on



#16 AustinF1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 16:00

Hi, That is the first time I have seen that and it make's you wonder who is driving the car, I suppose you could say that all the information given to Norris could have been given to him on the pit board but to have so much information given in such a short space of time comes as close as you could get to the pits driving the car as you could get. Back in the day Mansell did not like anti skid brakes because the driver should be able to control the car not technology, like it or not time moves on I suppose.

Yeah, it's nonsense. The 'best drivers in the world' should be driving without coaching from the pit wall.



#17 Requiem84

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 16:14

Hi, well the point you have made seems to be a useful turn around in helping the driver to run the car but I suppose the point I was making was actual coaching ie: telling a driver he is not hitting corner 5 hard enough and take corner 6 central rather than hugging the curb which is coaching and not an issue with keeping the car running, is this type of communication allowed?

 

MW

 

Yes it is, because during the 'driver coaching ban', we would suddenly hear on the radio that 'the sun is shining in turn 1'. 

 

Obviously they started using some sort of coded messages to say 'brake later into T1' for example.. Meaning that it is very hard to police whether a radio message relates to driver coaching, or to other things (such as settings, etc). 



#18 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 16:28

Hi Requiem84, Yes I agree and at the time I thought it was MI5 on the radio and expecting 007 to be driving on the track, some times it is futile to stop some one breaking the rules and I suppose teams will always do there best to bend them



#19 Clatter

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 17:20

Hi Requiem84, Yes I agree and at the time I thought it was MI5 on the radio and expecting 007 to be driving on the track, some times it is futile to stop some one breaking the rules and I suppose teams will always do there best to bend them

 


First step I would like to see is too ban the telemetry. If the teams are not receiving data, then they will find far harder to coach the drivers.

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#20 ArchieTech

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 17:28

I suspect I'm in a minority here but I really enjoyed watching Lando and his race engineer get every possible bit of performance out of the car in those couple of laps. It's not like he was being coached on lines or braking or any of the fundamentals of driving the car, he was switching modes and altering deployment to use up all available energy by the time he crossed the line and was having to follow those instructions whilst doing all the normal driving of the car and his race engineer was having to react moment by moment to the data. Presumably because it was the end of the race they could tactically drain the ERS as much as allowable knowing that they don't have further racing laps where it would need to recharge.

 

It's not like drivers don't get told to change car settings during the race anyway (though engine modes are banned now largely) but this was just a very intense couple of laps and a much much higher work rate than normal.



#21 Murrayf1

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Posted 01 April 2021 - 18:03

Hi, I think this subject will always be contentious and we can not stop progress whether we like it or not, I used to be able to tinker about with my car and now I need a computer expert to do it and I suppose F1 has always been at the cutting edge of technology so can a modern F1 driver remember everything about the car especially at 200 mile an hour I think not and I must admit listening to Norris's last two laps in Austria 2020 was very exciting and isn't that what we want



#22 Kelpiecross

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 05:33

Why does this topic have a little arrow next to it? 



#23 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 07:01

Why does this topic have a little arrow next to it?


The topic was in another part of the forum at one point and was moved here.

#24 Flasheart

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 08:10

Many Thanks, I guess IL be eating Humble Pie for tea

 


Admit nothing! If you go at him hard enough, it’ll sow seeds of self doubt. Then quickly change the subject. 😉😂

#25 Murrayf1

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:10

I finished the humble pie a week ago although it did tend to stick in my throat a bit, after a few drinks we were on to will Verstappen have the car to get the better of Hamilton this year and stop King Lewis from going down in history



#26 Dratini

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 10:51

Without meaning any disrespect, the idea that drivers shouldn't be coached is a little narrow-minded for mine. It's a team sport. The drivers are nothing without the cars that their teams build for them. We shouldn't accept drivers not named Brabham to go out and win championships in cars they built for themselves, just as we shouldn't accept that their teams are going to leave them for dead the moment the lights go out.



#27 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 11:07

Without meaning any disrespect, the idea that drivers shouldn't be coached is a little narrow-minded for mine. It's a team sport. The drivers are nothing without the cars that their teams build for them. We shouldn't accept drivers not named Brabham to go out and win championships in cars they built for themselves, just as we shouldn't accept that their teams are going to leave them for dead the moment the lights go out.

 


It's in the rules.

27.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

#28 BRG

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 11:22

It's in the rules.

 

27.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

 

So is the one about not crossing the white lines on the edge of the track...

 

The only radio link that should be allowed is race director to drivers.  No ship to shore, no telemetry, no coaching (you are paying a driver millions and he needs an engineer paid thousands to tell him when to turn in? :eek: ) no 'Get in there, Lewis', no juvenile whining by drivers.  Bliss!



#29 GreenMachine

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 12:21

Telemetry is fine.

 

Radio is fine.

 

But perhaps not both, together.

 

Keep the telemetry, and rely on pit boards (except for race director radio, one way!),  Or drop the telemetry, and let them chat about whatever they want.  Without the telemetry there will be little for the race engineer to say about the car, and how the driver can improve. 



#30 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 14:21

It's in the rules.

 

27.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.

 

 

Which taken to extremes would mean pit crews and external starters are also against the rules.

 

That rule is about driver aids such as traction control, automatic gearboxes and anti-lock brakes.



#31 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 15:08

Which taken to extremes would mean pit crews and external starters are also against the rules.

That rule is about driver aids such as traction control, automatic gearboxes and anti-lock brakes.

The pitcrew and starter are allowed within the rules. I think this was the same rule that the FIA used to try and ban driver coaching, but they still couldn't control it, and unless something explicitly says something to the contrary, I think the rule covers all aid.

#32 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 15:15

The pitcrew and starter are allowed within the rules. I think this was the same rule that the FIA used to try and ban driver coaching, but they still couldn't control it, and unless something explicitly says something to the contrary, I think the rule covers all aid.

 

But I think people take it to extremes when it comes to things that aren't actually aiding the driver in driving the car, such as getting information from the team.



#33 AustinF1

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 15:50

Hi, I think this subject will always be contentious and we can not stop progress whether we like it or not, I used to be able to tinker about with my car and now I need a computer expert to do it and I suppose F1 has always been at the cutting edge of technology so can a modern F1 driver remember everything about the car especially at 200 mile an hour I think not and I must admit listening to Norris's last two laps in Austria 2020 was very exciting and isn't that what we want

Punctuation, bro. That's brutal.



#34 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 16:04

But I think people take it to extremes when it comes to things that aren't actually aiding the driver in driving the car, such as getting information from the team.

What extremes are they?

#35 sabjit

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 17:08

It was introduced before the 2016 Australian GP (round 1) https://www.motorspo...-677934/677934/
and lifted before the 2016 German GP (round 12) https://www.motorspo...-rules/3222387/

 

It was at the European GP in Baku (round 8) that Lewis Hamilton had this power issue:
 "Derates everywhere. I'm sure that's not helping. Is there no solution for this?"
 "We are working on it, Lewis."
 "You guys need to pick up the pace... Can I not reset this thing?"
 "Okay, Lewis, so the problem appears to be with the current mode that you're in."
 "I don't know what you mean, man. I don't know what's wrong."
 "Yeah, copy that, Lewis. Hard to say what it is..."
 "This is ridiculous, guys! I don't know... I'm looking at my fricking dash every five seconds trying to find a switch that's in the wrong position! I haven't changed anything or done something any wrong as far as I'm aware."
 "Yeah, Lewis, it's nothing that you're doing wrong. Just got a setting that's incorrect."
 "Is it HPP?"
 "Er, I'm afraid I can't say, Lewis."
 "Bono, I might not finish this race, 'cause I'm gonna try and change everything..."
 "Er, we don't advise that, Lewis!"
 "Can I make suggestions and you say if it's okay or not?"
 "Nope, that's not allowed! Let's just get our heads down and focus on the job."

 

I remember this, it was what many had warned would happen yet people still thought "it will increase the importance of driver skill" and we had to wait for a clear example like this to show it was a dumb rule. How on earth is a driver supposed to diagnose and rectify technical issues in the car. There is no skill involved in this at all and it takes away from the racing.



#36 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 17:15

I remember this, it was what many had warned would happen yet people still thought "it will increase the importance of driver skill" and we had to wait for a clear example like this to show it was a dumb rule. How on earth is a driver supposed to diagnose and rectify technical issues in the car. There is no skill involved in this at all and it takes away from the racing.

 


There was nothing wrong with the rule, it was a failure of the team in not simplifying the system. The systems are overly complicated by design, not because they need to be.

#37 sabjit

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 17:23

There was nothing wrong with the rule, it was a failure of the team in not simplifying the system. The systems are overly complicated by design, not because they need to be.

 

You really believe what you are saying here? The teams making these highly advanced V6 turbos more complicated than they need to be?

 

Absolute tosh. There was a lot wrong with the rule and many warned about it beforehand.



#38 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 17:38

Give them enough incentive and they will simplify things. There is no reason why the PU needs to be as complicated as it is.

#39 erikf1gp

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 18:25

I was also sure driver coaching is still banned....I seem to remember a conversation where the engineer says something like "I can't tell you that, it's driver coaching" taking place more recently than 5 years ago.

Anyway - all communication should be banned. Only pit boards and on the dashboard, only the info originating directly from the car (not pushed from the pits).

 

We already have too many things that prevent unpredictability: almost perfect reliability, various change freezes, long periods of drivers with same teams with no internal competition, no proper wet races. This one should be easy to implement and well justified.


Edited by erikf1gp, 11 April 2021 - 18:25.


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#40 Murrayf1

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 18:30

I started this post 2 weeks ago and it is like watching the Monaco GP it goes round and round and is usually a precession because of no overtaking as Nigel Mansell proved when he tried to get passed Ayrton Senna in 1992, is there a written rule on Pit to Car communication that I can read from the FIA  ????????



#41 prty

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 18:49

I wonder if this counts as pit to car communication, or as any form of communication at all :lol:

 



#42 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 19:59

I started this post 2 weeks ago and it is like watching the Monaco GP it goes round and round and is usually a precession because of no overtaking as Nigel Mansell proved when he tried to get passed Ayrton Senna in 1992, is there a written rule on Pit to Car communication that I can read from the FIA  ????????

 


The FIA have a very bad habit of not putting all the rules into the rule book, and not publishing things like clarifications etc. for public eyes. This leaves us often going into the weekend not knowing what rules they are actually running to.

#43 ANF

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Posted 11 April 2021 - 20:12

I started this post 2 weeks ago and it is like watching the Monaco GP it goes round and round and is usually a precession because of no overtaking as Nigel Mansell proved when he tried to get passed Ayrton Senna in 1992, is there a written rule on Pit to Car communication that I can read from the FIA  ????????

There are written restrictions in a technical directive, but not in the sporting regulations, and technical directives are not available online.

"The restriction [on the formation lap] dates back to a technical directive issued in 2017 which used the requirement that drivers have to drive the car 'alone and unaided' to stop chatter that could improve starts, specifically regarding clutch bite points. It states that only radio messages concerning safety are allowed.
 In Hungary [2020] the ruling surfaced in unusual circumstances when both Kevin Magnussen and Romain Grosjean discussed a tyre change during the formation lap, and subsequently came in at the end of it to switch to slick tyres and start from the pitlane."
https://www.motorspo...-rules/4853721/


Edited by ANF, 11 April 2021 - 20:14.


#44 Murrayf1

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 07:03

I wonder if this counts as pit to car communication, or as any form of communication at all :lol:

 

 

That was funny, and I suppose "Can you hear me" "No I can't hear you" sums it up  :clap:



#45 Claudius

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 08:12

I really dislike driver coaching. The supposed best drivers in the world coached around the track like babies.

It's up to the driver to understand his machinery and find the ultimate limit, not an engineer with a laptop.