392 replies to this topic

[Ben1445]

NoForumForOldPole, on 25 Aug 2022 - 19:01, said:

How come? Toyota have range of EVs with Subaru and also have started all this eco bullshit with hybrid Prius. You surely heard about Prius? It has been around for 20 years. They have phase it out because the Prius started hybrid technology is in Corollas and RAV4s now. EVs are no that complex hardwarewise at all really, even if Toyota did not start same time as Tesla they still con catch up in no time. It took them 1 year to come out with working hydrogen version of ICE. How long is it going to take to figure out couple of electric engines on 1 axle and a battery. People make EVs in their own garages!

I think Toyota's main barrier to being competitive in the BEV market in the short-medium term isn't so much technology expertise as supply chain.

Edited by Ben1445, 26 August 2022 - 08:27.

[Dalton007]

Beri, on 26 Aug 2022 - 08:12, said:

 

Electric cars are inherently easier to make, compared to building your own ICE driven cars. That is the reason why, in China alone, there have been 4 brands (Aiways, Lynk&CO, Seres and SiTech) who all were founded after 2016 and are solely selling electric vehicles and doing this by numbers that does make Toyota cry over their own sales numbers on electric cars.

 

Yes, easier, but Chinese companies still can't make a profit on the EV business, even with the state backing most if not all of them. BYD still made a loss of 2.1 billion, for example. I do like some of the China made EVs. They might be as efficient as a Tesla, but they do like nice. 

 

Toyota are in denial. It's sad to see them commit seppuku.

[Ben1445]

There's a long and fairly detailed article about hydrogen in motorsport (both FCs and ICEs) in Motorsporrt.com covering quite an array of active projects. 

 

https://www.motorspo...sport/10447146/

 

Think some people may be interested to read it. 

[AustinF1]

Seems to be gaining momentum. Toyota seems to be all-in.

[highdownforce]

Ben1445, on 22 Mar 2023 - 17:11, said:

There's a long and fairly detailed article about hydrogen in motorsport (both FCs and ICEs) in Motorsporrt.com covering quite an array of active projects.

https://www.motorspo...sport/10447146/

Think some people may be interested to read it.

Thank you!

Information about the use of FCs for motorsport has been quite scarce since the announcement of the delay of the hydrogen class in WEC.

Green hydrogen and ethanol derived hydrogen FC are hot topics.

Edited by highdownforce, 22 March 2023 - 19:20.

[Ben1445]

AustinF1, on 22 Mar 2023 - 17:17, said:

Seems to be gaining momentum. Toyota seems to be all-in.

Maybe not quite as all-in…

Toyota looks to overhaul EV strategy as new CEO takes charge
https://www.reuters....rge-2023-04-06/

Akio Toyoda, who was a very strong proponent of ICEs and appeared to personally spearhead the Corolla 24 hour racing project, stepped down to give way to Koji Sato. Seems that they have realised that their EV projections were a little on the pessimistic side and their EV platform is woefully uncompetitive. Bit of a rethink underway.

Edited by Ben1445, 08 April 2023 - 15:21.

[Ben1445]

Here's another one worthy of this thread. 

 

Ligier and Bosch have teamed up to make a hydrogen-fuelled V6 ICE version of the JS2 R which will be unveiled at this years Le Mans. 

 

https://www.bosch-pr...ine-254656.html

 

[highdownforce]

Nice find

[Beri]

Ben1445, on 10 May 2023 - 14:44, said:

Here's another one worthy of this thread. 
 
Ligier and Bosch have teamed up to make a hydrogen-fuelled V6 ICE version of the JS2 R which will be unveiled at this years Le Mans. 
 
https://www.bosch-pr...ine-254656.html
 

That is actually quite huge news. Two big entities teaming up, for a project like this, will open up some eyes in the racing industry more than a couple of student projects at various universities.

[vlado]

But why.. just use batteries

[kumo7]

vlado, on 14 May 2023 - 15:23, said:

But why.. just use batteries

 

It is a matter of principle. After taking energy out of fuel, there is only a limited amount of NOx and water... The fuel, hydrogen, is accessible anywhere anytime with certain technology.

This is a much more powerful machine than what it needs huge material transportation from one country to the other, a chemical process, and massive question as to how much it may be available, to which remnants after use has some questions.

 

The E-Car was an ideal machine, and the H-car was technically inconceivable. Taking H2 from the water was too complex, and H-ICU is not the most "efficient" or "competitive" system.

But, H-ICU leaves mainly water behind. It has become possible to compete on the track, but more is needed to win...

 

If you have a mighty engineering team and resources, with the will to contribute a machine to everyone who lives on this planet that runs with the fuel that exists everywhere, H is the solution.

It sounds odd to race fans and investors who want to see TOYOTA sell volume cars and make profit after profit...

[jee]

vlado, on 14 May 2023 - 15:23, said:

But why.. just use batteries

Because you can not power an ICE with batteries, that's a fuel cell.

[highdownforce]

vlado, on 14 May 2023 - 15:23, said:

But why.. just use batteries

As I understand this is just a ICE recalibrating exercise (with some added tanks).

Yes, a fuel cell will benefit from regen and less hydrogen to carry around on a single fuel load.

Ideally, a low center of gravity battery coupled with fewer mechanical parts and the need of less hydrogen tanks would offer better packaging opportunities for a Fuel Cell.

But on a series where refueling is not a problem (be it by availability of quick refueling or shorter sprints) these disavantages for a hydrogen ICE can be offset.

Also, it's a cheaper conversion for an already existing ICE race car.

[Ben1445]

In terms of whether it will make a viable option for motorsport, I think that would ultimately come down to the overall costs compared to the alternatives.

[kumo7]

Ben1445, on 15 May 2023 - 11:36, said:

In terms of whether it will make a viable option for motorsport, I think that would ultimately come down to the overall costs compared to the alternatives.

 

What I like of Toyota's effort is it is taking this scientific approach to develop it in social fashion, rather than a commercial product. Building usable H-ICU is a matter of interest for the entire human race and the planet, not about making profit. The investors do have issues here.

But Akio Toyota said TOYOTA hybrid system could be made available as OEM to anybody who comes to purchase. This is equally true to human race, but not to the specific investor... 

[Dalton007]

kumo7, on 15 May 2023 - 13:50, said:

What I like of Toyota's effort is it is taking this scientific approach to develop it in social fashion, rather than a commercial product. Building usable H-ICU is a matter of interest for the entire human race and the planet, not about making profit. The investors do have issues here.

But Akio Toyota said TOYOTA hybrid system could be made available as OEM to anybody who comes to purchase. This is equally true to human race, but not to the specific investor... 

 

Because they have already lost in the battery stakes. Hydrogen is a pointless exercise, it keeps owners tethered to the fuel station and have high maintenance costs.

 

When decent EV car prices start at 20k with 250 miles of range and be autonomous, majority of consumers will not buy fuel cell cars. I don't even think it will be viable for F1

[kumo7]

Dalton007, on 15 May 2023 - 14:06, said:

Because they have already lost in the battery stakes. Hydrogen is a pointless exercise, it keeps owners tethered to the fuel station and have high maintenance costs.

When decent EV car prices start at 20k with 250 miles of range and be autonomous, majority of consumers will not buy fuel cell cars. I don't even think it will be viable for F1

I do see your point. H-ICU is currently not the price range, and perhaps not sooner than E-car. But, like many other new technology was, it will change.

I said social because Toyota referred to BMW as the precedence of its technology. Perhaps Toyota’s current technology may, or may not, bring the H-ICU to our use. But it will certainly brings us closer to it. If not Toyota, then may be anyone who dares, who is willing to succeed its will. Yes, I see it such a human effort beyond direct profit making.

I think Toyota will have perfect E-car if it were to decide. After all it is battery technology of Panasonic which put Tesla forward, and Philips tooth brush. Panasonic is one of the oldest business partner of Toyota, so the rest shall explain by itself. Vehicle hardware except battery isn’t such s high obstacle, besides the software. But it will solve the issues.

It was Toyota’s intentional choice to go for hybrid, which I think is a better variant than a full e-car. None know if we have enough lithium for mass production and if billions of lithium cars on the planet can make out environment healthier than now, with abandoned cars deep in the forests, leaking lithium away, burning.

[pdac]

kumo7, on 15 May 2023 - 22:11, said:

I do see your point. H-ICU is currently not the price range, and perhaps not sooner than E-car. But, like many other new technology was, it will change.

...

 

I don't see H-ICU as being a technology that will be used for mass transport. Even if it proves significantly better, it's already too late to the market. Like it or not, the world has settled on an EV future and the infrastructure of many countries will be heavily geared towards that in the not to distant future. Petrol service stations will gradually start to disappear in favour of fast-charge stations. Like many technologies, EV will reluctantly be adopted by the vast majority, despite it being inferior in many ways from the existing technology.

 

Hydrogen, though, may well find a place in motorsport and fleet transport, where filling stations do not need to be widely available.

[Ben1445]

pdac, on 15 May 2023 - 22:25, said:

despite it being inferior in many ways from the existing technology.

Also, crucially, superior enough in other ways to tip the balance in their favour. Namely a more efficient use of the clean/renewable energy sources we need to be transitioning to.

If anything is going to demonstrate clearer superiority in meeting our needs and shift us away from the current trend of ‘cars…but they’re electric’ it’s unlikely to be hydrogen or eFuels or magic pixie dust, it’ll probably be electrified mass-transit and varieties of smaller eMobility.

[kumo7]

pdac, on 15 May 2023 - 22:25, said:

I don't see H-ICU as being a technology that will be used for mass transport. Even if it proves significantly better, it's already too late to the market. Like it or not, the world has settled on an EV future and the infrastructure of many countries will be heavily geared towards that in the not to distant future. Petrol service stations will gradually start to disappear in favour of fast-charge stations. Like many technologies, EV will reluctantly be adopted by the vast majority, despite it being inferior in many ways from the existing technology.

 

Hydrogen, though, may well find a place in motorsport and fleet transport, where filling stations do not need to be widely available.

 

Like I said, if not this life, then next. The span is much longer than the life of an engineer. It is a well-known fact that E-Car was built and sold in '70s. An ideal technology is different from what people choose. 
I'm curious what Steve Jobs would have chosen if he was in the position to choose either E-car or H-car. I can hear you saying E-car, as Apple is already working on it. I can agree, H-car is still a bit too early. But, without Akio Toyota, it was much, much further away.

I love his way of just working on H-Car. if one-day H-cars come to market and succeed, it is Akio Toyota we may recall. 

[highdownforce]

pdac, on 15 May 2023 - 22:25, said:

I don't see H-ICU as being a technology that will be used for mass transport. Even if it proves significantly better, it's already too late to the market. Like it or not, the world has settled on an EV future and the infrastructure of many countries will be heavily geared towards that in the not to distant future. Petrol service stations will gradually start to disappear in favour of fast-charge stations. Like many technologies, EV will reluctantly be adopted by the vast majority, despite it being inferior in many ways from the existing technology.

Hydrogen, though, may well find a place in motorsport and fleet transport, where filling stations do not need to be widely available.

"World" is a big place.

It is not about reluctance, FC's can be used in scenarios where pure EV's won't make the cut so soon. In some scenarios EV's may never be the optimal solution.

For the same reason that petrol Hybrids that use a gas engine as a range extender will still be common place for quite a while.

H-ICU is more niche but is good for high energy demanding tasks when storage space is not a problem.

Gasoline and diesel were both Jack-of-all-trades, but this won't be the reality in a post petrol fuel reality.

Down here in the global south we are planning a mix of EV's, ethanol hybrids, BioDiesel, LNG, green hydrogen and peteol from carbon neutral oil exploration (that's a thing!) for the next decades.

[Dalton007]

For F1, more likely to be synthetic fuels than batteries or hydrogen, especially considering that the EU is allowing manufacturers to come up with a clean fuel. 

[kumo7]

highdownforce, on 16 May 2023 - 10:39, said:

"World" is a big place.

It is not about reluctance, FC's can be used in scenarios where pure EV's won't make the cut so soon. In some scenarios EV's may never be the optimal solution.

For the same reason that petrol Hybrids that use a gas engine as a range extender will still be common place for quite a while.

H-ICU is more niche but is good for high energy demanding tasks when storage space is not a problem.

Gasoline and diesel were both Jack-of-all-trades, but this won't be the reality in a post petrol fuel reality.

Down here in the global south we are planning a mix of EV's, ethanol hybrids, BioDiesel, LNG, green hydrogen and peteol from carbon neutral oil exploration (that's a thing!) for the next decades.

 

Yup like human being live on the earth to thrive, hybrid is the way to go.

But the investor sees E-car as the product. So-far 1-0 to E vs H, but 1-3 for E vs Hybrid.

[Dalton007]

kumo7, on 15 May 2023 - 22:11, said:

I do see your point. H-ICU is currently not the price range, and perhaps not sooner than E-car. But, like many other new technology was, it will change.

I said social because Toyota referred to BMW as the precedence of its technology. Perhaps Toyota’s current technology may, or may not, bring the H-ICU to our use. But it will certainly brings us closer to it. If not Toyota, then may be anyone who dares, who is willing to succeed its will. Yes, I see it such a human effort beyond direct profit making.

I think Toyota will have perfect E-car if it were to decide. After all it is battery technology of Panasonic which put Tesla forward, and Philips tooth brush. Panasonic is one of the oldest business partner of Toyota, so the rest shall explain by itself. Vehicle hardware except battery isn’t such s high obstacle, besides the software. But it will solve the issues.

It was Toyota’s intentional choice to go for hybrid, which I think is a better variant than a full e-car. None know if we have enough lithium for mass production and if billions of lithium cars on the planet can make out environment healthier than now, with abandoned cars deep in the forests, leaking lithium away, burning.

 

 

Toyota have already lost the EV race, Tesla way ahead of them, and the future is going to be autonomous, so whoever solves it will crush the business of the other car makers. So alternative fuels will probably not be a thing for road transport.

 

Car ownership will drop when it's easier and cheaper to hail a robotaxi, so there is that to consider as well in some countries. I can't wait not to own a car.

 

Hybrids are pointless for many, lugging an engine and a battery whilst keeping maintenance costs high. 

Edited by Dalton007, 16 May 2023 - 16:21.

[cbo]

Dalton007, on 16 May 2023 - 14:42, said:

Toyota have already lost the EV race, Tesla way ahead of them,

What EV manufacturer is not ahead of Toyota?

[Dalton007]

cbo, on 16 May 2023 - 15:24, said:

What EV manufacturer is not ahead of Toyota?

 

True.

 

Toyota's fall is going to be felt like an earthquake across the world. It's really sad what the management has not done considering their foray into hybrid tech, plus their manufacturing excellence. 

Edited by Dalton007, 16 May 2023 - 16:31.

[pdac]

Dalton007, on 16 May 2023 - 14:42, said:

Toyota have already lost the EV race, Tesla way ahead of them, and the future is going to be autonomous, so whoever solves it will crush the business of the other car makers. So alternative fuels will probably not be a thing for road transport.

 

Car ownership will drop when it's easier and cheaper to hail a robotaxi, so there is that to consider as well in some countries. I can't wait not to own a car.

 

Hybrids are pointless for many, lugging an engine and a battery whilst keeping maintenance costs high. 

 

The future will only be autonomous once roads start to be closed to non-autonomous vehicles in towns and cities. Otherwise, drivers will know they can cut up autonomous vehicles without fear of an accident. I agree with the rest, though, especially that the robotaxi will come and will cause a dramatic fall in car ownership.

[highdownforce]

Hydrogen ICE vs Synthetic Fuel vs BioDiesel racing on the same track for Super Taikyu Fuji 24h

At long last, the Toyota GR Corolla H2 Concept will take part in its first race since converting to liquid hydrogen fuel. This will be a world-first for motorsport, and to celebrate the occasion, ROOKIE Racing invited Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT team principal and World Rally Championship’s all-time iron man Jari-Matti Latvala back to Japan to drive it – part of a crew featuring Hiroaki Ishiura, Masahiro Sasaki, Yasuhiro Ogura, and the legend himself, Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda.

The “Hydrogen Corolla” missed the first round at Suzuka and the recent official test day at Fuji due to a private testing incident which delayed its debut.

Another debuting vehicle is the Honda Civic Type R CNF-R from Team HRC, which as its name suggests is powered by carbon-neutral synthetic fuel. Hideki Mutoh, Takuya Izawa, and Hiroki Otsu are set to share the spotlight with a driver to be named later.

There will be four CNF-powered cars entered in ST-Q this year – the Toyota GR86 from ROOKIE Racing, the Subaru BRZ from Team SDA Engineering, and the Nissan Z Racing Concept from NISMO, which is entering for the first time since last year’s Fuji 24 Hours in this configuration.

Mazda Spirit Racing’s Mazda2 Bio Concept, fuelled by renewable biodiesel, completes an eclectic experimental class that won’t be fighting for trophies or points in the Super Taikyu Series – they’ll instead be focused on a singular goal of completing all 24 hours of racing with no issues.

https://www.dailyspo...entry-list.html

[highdownforce]

Hydrogen ICE vs Synthetic Fuel vs BioDiesel racing on the same track for Super Taikyu Fuji 24h

Quote

At long last, the Toyota GR Corolla H2 Concept will take part in its first race since converting to liquid hydrogen fuel. This will be a world-first for motorsport, and to celebrate the occasion, ROOKIE Racing invited Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT team principal and World Rally Championship’s all-time iron man Jari-Matti Latvala back to Japan to drive it – part of a crew featuring Hiroaki Ishiura, Masahiro Sasaki, Yasuhiro Ogura, and the legend himself, Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda.

The “Hydrogen Corolla” missed the first round at Suzuka and the recent official test day at Fuji due to a private testing incident which delayed its debut.

Another debuting vehicle is the Honda Civic Type R CNF-R from Team HRC, which as its name suggests is powered by carbon-neutral synthetic fuel. Hideki Mutoh, Takuya Izawa, and Hiroki Otsu are set to share the spotlight with a driver to be named later.

There will be four CNF-powered cars entered in ST-Q this year – the Toyota GR86 from ROOKIE Racing, the Subaru BRZ from Team SDA Engineering, and the Nissan Z Racing Concept from NISMO, which is entering for the first time since last year’s Fuji 24 Hours in this configuration.

Mazda Spirit Racing’s Mazda2 Bio Concept, fuelled by renewable biodiesel, completes an eclectic experimental class that won’t be fighting for trophies or points in the Super Taikyu Series – they’ll instead be focused on a singular goal of completing all 24 hours of racing with no issues.

https://www.dailyspo...entry-list.html

Edited by highdownforce, 17 May 2023 - 00:57.

[kumo7]

Dalton007, on 16 May 2023 - 14:42, said:

Toyota have already lost the EV race, Tesla way ahead of them, and the future is going to be autonomous, so whoever solves it will crush the business of the other car makers. So alternative fuels will probably not be a thing for road transport.

Car ownership will drop when it's easier and cheaper to hail a robotaxi, so there is that to consider as well in some countries. I can't wait not to own a car.

Hybrids are pointless for many, lugging an engine and a battery whilst keeping maintenance costs high.

I think you are supporting Tesla or opposed to Toyota. No one won the e-car dominance and no one lost yet.
After all I do not see it as winning or losing. Because diversities are the very cause of our freedom. There are fuel ICU cars, therefore we can drive e cars. Because there are cars that we can drive, the fifth generation self driving car will be on the road at some point.

Tesla will be shot down when the law make them responsible for all accidents caused by self driving software. It is just not about ability to move around a city.

Even the fourth generation self driving technologies may have huge issues adopting to complex road conditions on this planet, let alone cats, dogs, cows, et al.

The point is that human wins against accident caused by machines. Not about e-cars winning against h-cars.

Edited by kumo7, 17 May 2023 - 08:08.

[kumo7]

highdownforce, on 17 May 2023 - 00:55, said:

Hydrogen ICE vs Synthetic Fuel vs BioDiesel racing on the same track for Super Taikyu Fuji 24h

At long last, the Toyota GR Corolla H2 Concept will take part in its first race since converting to liquid hydrogen fuel. This will be a world-first for motorsport, and to celebrate the occasion, ROOKIE Racing invited Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT team principal and World Rally Championship’s all-time iron man Jari-Matti Latvala back to Japan to drive it – part of a crew featuring Hiroaki Ishiura, Masahiro Sasaki, Yasuhiro Ogura, and the legend himself, Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda.

The “Hydrogen Corolla” missed the first round at Suzuka and the recent official test day at Fuji due to a private testing incident which delayed its debut.

Another debuting vehicle is the Honda Civic Type R CNF-R from Team HRC, which as its name suggests is powered by carbon-neutral synthetic fuel. Hideki Mutoh, Takuya Izawa, and Hiroki Otsu are set to share the spotlight with a driver to be named later.

There will be four CNF-powered cars entered in ST-Q this year – the Toyota GR86 from ROOKIE Racing, the Subaru BRZ from Team SDA Engineering, and the Nissan Z Racing Concept from NISMO, which is entering for the first time since last year’s Fuji 24 Hours in this configuration.

Mazda Spirit Racing’s Mazda2 Bio Concept, fuelled by renewable biodiesel, completes an eclectic experimental class that won’t be fighting for trophies or points in the Super Taikyu Series – they’ll instead be focused on a singular goal of completing all 24 hours of racing with no issues.

https://www.dailyspo...entry-list.html

Toyota H-cars will either be the class champion or dead last. Never mind we know that h-car technology is not that far to beat any of its opponents. The point is that the h-car to complete the entire 24-hours race, and secondly, and to me more importantly, that Toyota chose this 24 hour race as the test bed of the technology. I have not seen a shade of Tesla on race track against other cars.

[mclara]

Dalton007, on 16 May 2023 - 16:22, said:

True.

Toyota's fall is going to be felt like an earthquake across the world. It's really sad what the management has not done considering their foray into hybrid tech, plus their manufacturing excellence.

Wasnt that what they said about VW after dieselgate was discovered?
A lot of people daid the same about german car manufacturers when Tesla started to launch new models. Guess they were wrong

[Dalton007]

mclara, on 17 May 2023 - 10:05, said:

 

Wasnt that what they said about VW after dieselgate was discovered?
A lot of people daid the same about german car manufacturers when Tesla started to launch new models. Guess they were wrong

 

Dieselgate is a different topic. That was about cheating emissions.

 

Model Y on course to be the best selling car in the world this year. Quite an achievement considering what they are up against.

[mclara]

Dalton007, on 17 May 2023 - 11:17, said:

Dieselgate is a different topic. That was about cheating emissions.

Model Y on course to be the best selling car in the world this year. Quite an achievement considering what they are up against.

Its still the same wrong prediction. Mostly based on limitied knowledge of what a multi billion company can do if they need to.

Audi, bmw and mercedes isnt really competing with tesla model y. Thats why they didnt cut their prices when tesla did.
Both Bmw and Mercedes are doing better than ever

Edited by mclara, 17 May 2023 - 11:46.

[Dalton007]

kumo7, on 17 May 2023 - 03:44, said:

I think you are supporting Tesla or opposed to Toyota. No one won the e-car dominance and no one lost yet.
After all I do not see it as winning or losing. Because diversities are the very cause of our freedom. There are fuel ICU cars, therefore we can drive e cars. Because there are cars that we can drive, the fifth generation self driving car will be on the road at some point.

 

 

 

I doubt there will be a diversity of fuels for road transport. Batteries will be so cheap that alternatives won't be in the picture, especially ones that cost a lot to maintain.

 

 

Quote

 

Tesla will be shot down when the law make them responsible for all accidents caused by self driving software. It is just not about ability to move around a city.

Even the fourth generation self driving technologies may have huge issues adopting to complex road conditions on this planet, let alone cats, dogs, cows, et al.

The point is that human wins against accident caused by machines. Not about e-cars winning against h-cars.

 

Tesla or any car company will be liable for their autonomous cars in accidents.

 

It's all about E v H and E has already won. Solar + battery will be the cheapest option.

[Dalton007]

mclara, on 17 May 2023 - 11:43, said:

Its still the same wrong prediction. Mostly based on limitied knowledge of what a multi billion company can do if they need to.

Audi, bmw and mercedes isnt really competing with tesla model y. Thats why they didnt cut their prices when tesla did.
Both Bmw and Mercedes are doing better than ever

 

Most people were unaware of diesel gate.

 

All car companies cut prices, not many pay MRSP, you negotiate prices at the dealership, so it's not transparent unlike Tesla, who have real-time data. on orders.

 

Remember, most car companies sell their cars to dealers, so they get paid by them, not necessarily the customer - and they count deliveries to dealers. Although I don't think the German car companies will fail, they won't be the giants of the automotive future. 

[highdownforce]

Dalton007, on 17 May 2023 - 11:58, said:

I doubt there will be a diversity of fuels for road transport. Batteries will be so cheap that alternatives won't be in the picture, especially ones that cost a lot to maintain.

Your doubts are unfunded.

Currently we don't use gasoline for applications. There is diesel, crude oil, querosene, butane, other petrol derivatives and then there is ethanol, methanol and others.

To suppose that pure EV's will achieve what petrol didn't is a bold claim.

Edited by highdownforce, 17 May 2023 - 13:03.

[RedRabbit]

Once EV "takes over" as supposed, what is the reason behind batteries becoming "so cheap"?

The reality is, that once tax money from petrol and diesel sales dries up, those levies will simply be transferred to electricity production and storage.

Nevermind the fact that many grids around the world won't stand up to the extra demand.

[Ben1445]

highdownforce, on 17 May 2023 - 00:55, said:

Hydrogen ICE vs Synthetic Fuel vs BioDiesel racing on the same track for Super Taikyu Fuji 24h

At long last, the Toyota GR Corolla H2 Concept will take part in its first race since converting to liquid hydrogen fuel. This will be a world-first for motorsport, and to celebrate the occasion, ROOKIE Racing invited Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT team principal and World Rally Championship’s all-time iron man Jari-Matti Latvala back to Japan to drive it – part of a crew featuring Hiroaki Ishiura, Masahiro Sasaki, Yasuhiro Ogura, and the legend himself, Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda.

Liquid hydrogen is the really interesting and significant part of this story. 

 

Using liquid hydrogen helps work past some really key drawbacks to using gaseous hydrogen, namely that the tanks end up taking up a lot of space and weight. Liquid hydrogen takes up less volume than gaseous hydrogen, and can also be stored in much lower pressure tanks (high pressure tanks being the components which end up adding significant weight in a gaseous set up). 

 

The massive new downside, however, is that liquid hydrogen has to be stored at -253^oC. Even with insulation on the tank (which adds weight and volume) it will gradually boil off and the hydrogen gas will require venting to ease pressure from building in the tanks. Since releasing excess hydrogen into the atmosphere is both wasteful and harmful, it should to either be stored gaseously on-board (with all the problems associated with gaseous storage) or physically connected to an external tank/network to vent into. 

 

For an average family car which is only active for a few hours a week and sat stationary the rest of the time, that's a fairly major concern. For racing it is perhaps less so, since the intent is to keep the cars running for long and/or predetermined periods of time in a controlled environment. Even so, they would have to design the tank and insulation for unplanned periods of downtime, such as a lengthy repair stop during an endurance race or the car coming to a halt somewhere out on track and allowing for the time it may take for recovery to the paddock. 

 

I would be interested to see on a technical level how they approach these problems at the racetrack and what industries can benefit from the lessons learned, but I'm near certain we're not all going to be filling up our cars with liquid hydrogen from pumps on the forecourts. 

Edited by Ben1445, 17 May 2023 - 13:45.

[RedRabbit]

Emissions from airliners and shipping dwarfs passenger vehicles anyway.

The best way to save the planet is stop shipping stuff all over it.

[pdac]

Dalton007, on 17 May 2023 - 12:02, said:

Most people were unaware of diesel gate.

 

All car companies cut prices, not many pay MRSP, you negotiate prices at the dealership, so it's not transparent unlike Tesla, who have real-time data. on orders.

 

Remember, most car companies sell their cars to dealers, so they get paid by them, not necessarily the customer - and they count deliveries to dealers. Although I don't think the German car companies will fail, they won't be the giants of the automotive future. 

 

This kind of thing has been showing incessantly for years.

[kumo7]

Ben1445, on 17 May 2023 - 13:44, said:

Liquid hydrogen is the really interesting and significant part of this story.

Using liquid hydrogen helps work past some really key drawbacks to using gaseous hydrogen, namely that the tanks end up taking up a lot of space and weight. Liquid hydrogen takes up less volume than gaseous hydrogen, and can also be stored in much lower pressure tanks (high pressure tanks being the components which end up adding significant weight in a gaseous set up).

The massive new downside, however, is that liquid hydrogen has to be stored at -253^oC. Even with insulation on the tank (which adds weight and volume) it will gradually boil off and the hydrogen gas will require venting to ease pressure from building in the tanks. Since releasing excess hydrogen into the atmosphere is both wasteful and harmful, it should to either be stored gaseously on-board (with all the problems associated with gaseous storage) or physically connected to an external tank/network to vent into.

For an average family car which is only active for a few hours a week and sat stationary the rest of the time, that's a fairly major concern. For racing it is perhaps less so, since the intent is to keep the cars running for long and/or predetermined periods of time in a controlled environment. Even so, they would have to design the tank and insulation for unplanned periods of downtime, such as a lengthy repair stop during an endurance race or the car coming to a halt somewhere out on track and allowing for the time it may take for recovery to the paddock.

I would be interested to see on a technical level how they approach these problems at the racetrack and what industries can benefit from the lessons learned, but I'm near certain we're not all going to be filling up our cars with liquid hydrogen from pumps on the forecourts.

Thank you for your post with interesting and learning worthy knowledge.

Like I said, it is about diversity where we had to focus, not only in fuel, but also in much wider sense.
From your description H car might be a great choice for large transport vehicles and taxis. Personal vehicles can use E, petroleum’s and perhaps others. It will change the dynamics. I can imagine racing series for ALL fuels.

I think to have racing series for hydrogen fuel is extremely important. Because, because car company invest on dream technology they will be well accepted to run naturally aspirated gasoline ICU for racing.

[pdac]

kumo7, on 17 May 2023 - 14:07, said:

Thank you for your post with interesting and learning worthy knowledge.

Like I said, it is about diversity where we had to focus, not only in fuel, but also in much wider sense.
From your description H car might be a great choice for large transport vehicles and taxis. Personal vehicles can use E, petroleum’s and perhaps others. It will change the dynamics. I can imagine racing series for ALL fuels.

I think to have racing series for hydrogen fuel is extremely important. Because, because car company invest on dream technology they will be well accepted to run naturally aspirated gasoline ICU for racing.

 

It makes sense for fleet vehicles to possibly use a different fuel, but not taxis. The refuelling infrastructure will not be present in abundance. Fleet operators could build their own, but for others they'd need to follow what the masses are doing and governments and manufacturers are dictating that this is going to be EV. The caveat to that is that there seems to be a realisation that ICE may be around for a while, but this will be covered by e-fuels, not H.

[mclara]

Dalton007, on 17 May 2023 - 12:02, said:

Most people were unaware of diesel gate.

 

All car companies cut prices, not many pay MRSP, you negotiate prices at the dealership, so it's not transparent unlike Tesla, who have real-time data. on orders.

 

Remember, most car companies sell their cars to dealers, so they get paid by them, not necessarily the customer - and they count deliveries to dealers. Although I don't think the German car companies will fail, they won't be the giants of the automotive future. 

even better reason not to make any wild predictions.

Doesnt really matter how companies sell their vehicle. Tesla’s price cut was hardly a sucess. It cut their margins and other producers didnt follow. Especially not the premium ones as they are not direct competitors to TM3..

[mclara]

RedRabbit, on 17 May 2023 - 13:45, said:

Emissions from airliners and shipping dwarfs passenger vehicles anyway.

The best way to save the planet is stop shipping stuff all over it.

Not true at all:

 

https://www.statista...ions-breakdown/

[Dalton007]

mclara, on 17 May 2023 - 14:45, said:

even better reason not to make any wild predictions.

Doesnt really matter how companies sell their vehicle. Tesla’s price cut was hardly a sucess. It cut their margins and other producers didnt follow. Especially not the premium ones as they are not direct competitors to TM3..

 

The price cut was a success, they gone back to the prices they were 18 months ago. It's not about the competition, it's about what the consumer is prepared to pay for a product in today's economy. And it's in their master plan to make affordable cars. And if autonomy is solved, then every Tesla will be able to drive autonomously. No other manufacturer can do that.

 

Their margins were cut but still higher than industry average.

 

The high end market is not for Tesla, they are gunning for mass market. 

[Ben1445]

pdac, on 17 May 2023 - 14:33, said:

It makes sense for fleet vehicles to possibly use a different fuel, but not taxis. The refuelling infrastructure will not be present in abundance. Fleet operators could build their own, but for others they'd need to follow what the masses are doing and governments and manufacturers are dictating that this is going to be EV. The caveat to that is that there seems to be a realisation that ICE may be around for a while, but this will be covered by e-fuels, not H.

I think there's an interesting dynamic here to keep an eye on over the next decade(s).

 

I think the most likely pathway is that fossil fuels will be gradually phased out from the mix and replaced with non-fossil bio/synthetic fuels with minimum percentage mandates. Given their inefficiency, as well as land-use and scale up challenges of producing these fuels, I think the market will dictate that average fuel costs will rise because of this, and that this will create a natural economic push towards alternatives to ICE technology. 

 

This effect may be particularly extreme if bio/synthetic fuels can't be produced in sufficient quantities and/or electric cars cannot be built and sold fast enough to displace current levels of fossil-based petrol/diesel demand within the phase-out timeframe we now need to hit to mitigate the worst effects on the climate. Should this happen (and I think it looks fairly likely) you could end up having very large numbers of people unable to afford either the fuel for their older ICE vehicle or the purchase prices for an EV (even a used one). 

 

Mitigations for such a scenario would include strengthening public and active transport offerings and decentralising retail and local services, all in aid of reducing the car's share of journeys taken in regions for which it is currently the dominant mode. 

[mclara]

Dalton007, on 17 May 2023 - 15:06, said:

The price cut was a success, they gone back to the prices they were 18 months ago. It's not about the competition, it's about what the consumer is prepared to pay for a product in today's economy. And it's in their master plan to make affordable cars. And if autonomy is solved, then every Tesla will be able to drive autonomously. No other manufacturer can do that.

 

Their margins were cut but still higher than industry average.

 

The high end market is not for Tesla, they are gunning for mass market. 

And there we have it. Thats why premium german car makers are not too botheres about Tesla and Tesla’s success certainly wont be their end. As is the case with Toyota

[highdownforce]

pdac, on 17 May 2023 - 14:33, said:

It makes sense for fleet vehicles to possibly use a different fuel, but not taxis. The refuelling infrastructure will not be present in abundance. Fleet operators could build their own, but for others they'd need to follow what the masses are doing and governments and manufacturers are dictating that this is going to be EV. The caveat to that is that there seems to be a realisation that ICE may be around for a while, but this will be covered by e-fuels, not H.

Here in Brazil, taxis and other taxis-like services (Uber, I'm looking at you) largely run on compressed natural gas.

Passenger cars run on either E27, E85 or anything between those (a great part of the cars are flex fuel).

Buses and trucks run mainly on Diesel.

All of those are sold on the same gas stations.

Mixed refueling infrastructure is no problem at all.

Edited by highdownforce, 17 May 2023 - 17:54.

[pdac]

highdownforce, on 17 May 2023 - 17:44, said:

Here in Brazil, taxis and other taxis-like services (Uber, I'm looking at you) largely run on compressed natural gas.

Passenger cars run on either E27, E85 or anything between those (a great part of the cars are flex fuel).

Buses and trucks run mainly on Diesel.

All of those are sold on the same gas stations.

Mixed refueling infrastructure is no problem at all.

 

EV fast charging still takes significantly longer than the current 'fill up'. That means vehicles will be sitting on the forecourt for much longer than they do now. Sure, changers may be placed in other places, but are service station owners going to lose out when other fuel usage is diminishing? Right now mixed refuelling is no problem, but it will not be so easy (both practically and economically) as EVs become dominant.