564 replies to this topic

[rf90]

I really like Valterri but I wonder if he is just too nice. Surely by now he must see he truly is the wingman for Toto's man. I know it's unlikely that he was naive enough to not think he was No2 when he joined but still, I really find it amazing how he is so composed at the times he has been thwarted by whatever, when he is ahead or likely to be ahead of Hamilton. Are a few wins enough to enjoy being treated thus?

He says he is fighting for titles but does he *really* believe that or is it just following the corporate line to make us all believe (as if) the drivers are playing on a level playing field, so to speak.

Personally, I would like to see him be a bolshy ba***** for the rest of this season. It could be his last with Merc anyway so why not.


 

[Risil]

He should make a point of repeatedly driving into his pit box at slightly jaunty angles, or stopping too soon, or too late.

 

Actually I think that's what one of the engines did in Thomas the Tank Engine, more or less, and they took his wheels off and used him as a generator. So maybe Valtteri should tread carefully.

[absinthedude]

I imagine all 20 drivers on the grid believe they can be world champion, including Bottas. There have been occasional weekends when he's genuinely beaten Lewis Hamilton...indeed were it not for his wheel nut issue he'd have done so convincingly in Monaco. He also tends to excel at Sochi. But overall, I think we all know he's not going to beat Lewis in a season long battle even if a few cards fall his way as they did for Nico in 2016. 

 

That said, who in their right minds would walk away from the best grand prix car there's ever been? The question must be framed along the lines of "what's Valtteri getting out of this?" and "Would he be happier elsewhere?". I don't get the impression he wants to retire or try another series. So he's in the best possible place he can be in F1. 

Edited by absinthedude, 26 May 2021 - 07:35.

[FullOppositeLock]

He will toe the line, as he was scouted and hired to do. I don't think he has it in him to do a Nico and mentally take the fight to Lewis. Also I don't see where he would go that would be better. All the teams you might expect to come good in 2022 have young pretenders that he would just be hired to do the same job he does at Mercedes for, so as long as he makes a nuisance of himself for other teams and doesn't get in the way of a Lewis/Merc title bid he's doing a perfect job and can cry himself to sleep thinking about the pole positions and wins he otherwise never would have had.

[Celloman]

Anyone would take his position to be in the quickest car as that's still the best chance to win the championship. It's not like his chances would be greater at Ferrari or Red Bull. I suspect Mercedes are not going to renew his contract, but they probably want to delay it for some time to keep him more inclined to help Hamilton. We already saw he was less compliant than usual at Barcelona when letting Hamilton past. The moment they announce his future in the team is over, Hamilton can expect a lot less help.

[shure]

Put simply, he'll never get a better gig.

 

He's got money, yes, but at a certain point he'll have enough to comfortably live off for the rest of his life so probably not the biggest motivator.  He has the chance, some would say the certainty, of regular podiums, something he won't get anywhere else.  And being at the front is undoubtedly a lot more enjoyable than being at the back.  Yes he knows he will always trail Lewis, but in pretty much any other car he'll be trailing Lewis and multiple other drivers.  At least now he can look at the stats and convince himself that he's better than most.

[PlatenGlass]

However good he thinks he is relative to Hamilton, if you're somewhere in the ballpark, you can be champion. It's happened numerous times over the decades that the "lesser" driver over the year has become champion in a dominant car. It's harder now with better reliability and more races but not impossible (Rosberg), and in any case, it makes sense for Bottas to stay until he's booted.

[Risil]

If Bottas can outlast Hamilton at Mercedes, he might be able to get a jump on the new guy, Felipe Massa style. Best I can do for career advice.

[NixxxoN]

I'd like him to leave, but it's quite obvious he doesn't want to

At this point I think he has accepted long ago that he will never be champion as long as Lewis is there and he just seems happy to stay and to "do a Barrichello"

And like Barrichello he only has the hope that the number 1 driver (in this case, Lewis) retires/leaves. Barrichello didnt quite have enough patience though

Edited by NixxxoN, 25 May 2021 - 19:56.

[RedRabbit]

Ricciardo left Red Bull because he felt they were favouring Max - looked how that worked out for him, 2 podiums in 2 seasons. Valterri might as well be invisible at the moment, but he still scoring podiums when he finishes, has already had a Pole position this season and has a better chance at race wins than any other team.

Personally, I feel like something happened in the off season, because there is very obvious tension coming from Toto towards him this year that he didn't get before. A lot of public jabs unneccessarily.

[wj_gibson]

For all the Rosberg comparisons, I think it’s very obvious that Rosberg was a much stronger driver than Bottas is.

[NixxxoN]

Ricciardo left Red Bull because he felt they were favouring Max - looked how that worked out for him, 2 podiums in 2 seasons. Valterri might as well be invisible at the moment, but he still scoring podiums when he finishes, has already had a Pole position this season and has a better chance at race wins than any other team.

Personally, I feel like something happened in the off season, because there is very obvious tension coming from Toto towards him this year that he didn't get before. A lot of public jabs unneccessarily.

Big difference is the age, Ricciardo far older than Max, so thats a big factor to leave. Bottas is some years younger than Lewis

The big similarity here is with Schumacher/Barrichello. Rubens was also some years younger than MS

Edited by NixxxoN, 25 May 2021 - 14:08.

[ExEd]

A number two driver to throw away a colossal tantrum to the point as throwing away the rest of the season for ermmm … being number 2, right.

Edited by ExEd, 25 May 2021 - 14:08.

[w00dy]

He should wait for now.

He might get another contract extension. Lewis definitely prefers him over Russell/Max for next year.

If he gets an interesting offer before Merc wants to commit, that's the tricky situation.

[Paco]

It all depends on his options for winning his dream. He saw Nico grab one from Lewis.

Unless he had a dream callup at RB, there is NO one else that will give him that shot with the engine freeze with no balance of power being revealed.

AM is showing they can’t. McLaren maybe but no chance of seat there.

All depends on what Perez does the next 6 races if Bottas even goes door knocking and if Marko would even consider it vs giving Perez a 2nd year to sort himself out.

So it would madness to leave.

Plus, He didn’t lose Monaco. He was darn well considering how Lewis went. He could have had a limited shot through no fault of his own.

He’s qualifying well, so why risk a move. Not as if Russell is racing on Sundays any better then Bottas. We’ve seen for whatever reason team transfer of drivers takes time and Mercedes can’t afford that learning phase.

The reason craziness would be Toto dropping him for Russell all things considered. Bottas was there picking up when Lewis had a bad day.

Edited by Paco, 25 May 2021 - 14:13.

[SophieB]

He could go and tell detractors to go eff themselves over a new team radio I guess, but which one? Is he going to displace Max at Red Bull? Persuade Ferrari to dump Sainz or Leclerc? He might try Mclaren but they show they have no problem in telling the slower guy to get out of the way of the quicker one so really I think he’s better off staying where he is and hoping for the best.

[Hrco42]

Where would he go? The only other place he would have some chance at the title is RB, and I guess he would be treated much worse there then he currently is at Mercedes. That said, RB might be a good option if Verstappen joins Mercedes and he and Lewis steal points of each other while whoever is at RB picks up the pieces and maybe wins the title. But I guess even in that scenario, Bottas wouldn't be the man who could steal the title from them

[ExEd]

He should wait for now.
He might get another contract extension. Lewis definitely prefers him over Russell/Max for next year.
If he gets an interesting offer before Merc wants to commit, that's the tricky situation.

I don’t think there is any question for him wanting to get an extension. All other options will probably lead out of F1 or back to Williams maybe.
Question is if the team think he is still capable of helping the team win both titles on the long run.

[ARTGP]

It all depends on his options for winning his dream. He saw Nico grab one from Lewis.

Unless he had a dream callup at RB, there is NO one else that will give him that shot with the engine freeze with no balance of power being revealed.

AM is showing they can’t. McLaren maybe but no chance of seat there.

All depends on what Perez does the next 6 races if Bottas even goes door knocking and if Marko would even consider it vs giving Perez a 2nd year to sort himself out.

So it would madness to leave.

Plus, He didn’t lose Monaco. He was darn well considering how Lewis went. He could have had a limited shot through no fault of his own.

He’s qualifying well, so why risk a move. Not asbif Russell is racing on Sundays any better then Bottas. We’ve seen for whatever reason team transfer of drivers takes time and Mercedes can’t afford that learning phase.

 

 

Next year seems the most efficient time to drop Russell in if they were considering it. Everybody starts from scratch with little familiarity of the new car.   The learning phase would be more costly if they waited until 2023 or 2024 when drivers from other teams have familiarity with their own equipment.

Edited by ARTGP, 25 May 2021 - 14:16.

[Roadhouse]

But has Bottas been told by the team he's gonna be a number 2 driver? It looks to me like they make him believe he gets a fighting chance, while the team knows he usually won't pose an actual threat to Hamilton.

His usual feisty starts of the season and body language when it all comes crashing down again make him look like he thinks he stands a chance.

[ExEd]

Next year seems the most efficient time to drop Russell in. Everybody starts from scratch with little familiarity of the new car. The learning phase would be more costly if they waited until 2023 or 2024.

Without having any real info I have a feeling that’s a done deal already.

[FullOppositeLock]

If Bottas can outlast Hamilton at Mercedes, he might be able to get a jump on the new guy, Felipe Massa style. Best I can do for career advice.

 

I think the 2021 season that we are seeing is ending any such aspirations he might have. Red Bull and Max have stepped it up a gear and suddenly Bottas is getting blown away. I imagine if Toto had any illusions that Bottas might be able to take over the mantle, or fight it out with Russell on the basis of an equal driver status for 2022, he will have made up his mind by now that this is not the way to go if they want to keep dominating after Lewis eventually retires.

[w00dy]

He could go and tell detractors to go eff themselves over a new team radio I guess, but which one? Is he going to displace Max at Red Bull? Persuade Ferrari to dump Sainz or Leclerc? He might try Mclaren but they show they have no problem in telling the slower guy to get out of the way of the quicker one so really I think he’s better off staying where he is and hoping for the best.

 

If he wants to enjoy driving, he might go anywhere, like Kimi, to win the WDC his only option is Merc, more likely with Lewis retiring than not.

 

But letting your teammate by can be soul-crushing and if this year is close, he will have to do that and more.

He just got told publicly by his boss that he cannot park the car properly.

[eibyyz]

However good he thinks he is relative to Hamilton, if you're somewhere in the ballpark, you can be champion. It's happened numerous times over the decades that the "lesser" driver over the year has become champion in a dominant car. It's harder now with better reliability and more races but not impossible (Rosberg), and in any case, it makes sense for Bottas to stay until he's booted.

 

Stowe, 1999.

[eibyyz]

Next year seems the most efficient time to drop Russell in if they were considering it. Everybody starts from scratch with little familiarity of the new car.   The learning phase would be more costly if they waited until 2023 or 2024 when drivers from other teams have familiarity with their own equipment.

 

I don't think HAM wants RUS there.  He's barracked for BOT, and if Toto tells Lewis to go fly a kite...

[ExEd]

If Bottas can outlast Hamilton at Mercedes, he might be able to get a jump on the new guy, Felipe Massa style. Best I can do for career advice.

Couldn’t agree more.
He can’t beat Lewis and he knows it but If Lewis decides it’s time, best place to be is that Merc against who ever sits in.

Edited by ExEd, 25 May 2021 - 14:23.

[RedRabbit]

Big difference is the age, Ricciardo far older than Max, so thats a big factor to leave. Bottas is some years younger than Lewis

The big similarity here is with Schumacher/Barrichello. Rubens was also some years younger than MS

 

Maybe, but Ricciardo staying at Red Bull will at least have earned him more wins and podiums by now. That's much better than imaginary title fights. Look at Alonso after leaving Ferrari for the promise of title challenges at McLaren. At that stage he had 97 podiums. He still has 97 podiums, while Raikkonen went on to pass the 100 mark, after being some 25 podiums or so behind when they were team mates.

Bottas has nothing to gain by leaving, and a career with more race wins and podiums is far better than moving because you feel left out or upset.

[JeePee]

Stowe, 1999.

Well, that was a car failure. So chances are about 500% higher it would be Bottas in the wall, not Hamilton.

[RedRabbit]

I think the 2021 season that we are seeing is ending any such aspirations he might have. Red Bull and Max have stepped it up a gear and suddenly Bottas is getting blown away. I imagine if Toto had any illusions that Bottas might be able to take over the mantle, or fight it out with Russell on the basis of an equal driver status for 2022, he will have made up his mind by now that this is not the way to go if they want to keep dominating after Lewis eventually retires.

 

He's finished 3rd in every race he's finished and had 2 DNFs that weren't his fault. He's also had a Pole. The points aren't telling the whole story, especially as he was comfortably 2nd at Monaco until the pit stop. That's not getting blown away at all.

[FullOppositeLock]

He's finished 3rd in every race he's finished and had 2 DNFs that weren't his fault. He's also had a Pole. The points aren't telling the whole story, especially as he was comfortably 2nd at Monaco until the pit stop. That's not getting blown away at all.

 

We've had five races and in each one the competition lead driver handed his ass to him on a plate. He's not ready to be Mercedes #1 based on the evidence so far this year. But even looking beyond that, he doesn't have the race pace or race craft to take on Lewis or Verstappen in a title fight in any case.

[NixxxoN]

Maybe, but Ricciardo staying at Red Bull will at least have earned him more wins and podiums by now. That's much better than imaginary title fights. Look at Alonso after leaving Ferrari for the promise of title challenges at McLaren. At that stage he had 97 podiums. He still has 97 podiums, while Raikkonen went on to pass the 100 mark, after being some 25 podiums or so behind when they were team mates.

Bottas has nothing to gain by leaving, and a career with more race wins and podiums is far better than moving because you feel left out or upset.

I agree on this, I pointed out that the "outlasting" factor was not an option for Ric so it made more sense for him to leave

[Maustinsj]

He should make a point of repeatedly driving into his pit box at slightly jaunty angles, or stopping too soon, or too late.

Actually I think that's what one of the engines did in Thomas the Tank Engine, more or less, and they took his wheels off and used him as a generator. So maybe Valtteri should tread carefully.

He was a Really Useful Engine though.

[messy]

Bottas isn't as strong relative to Lewis as Nico was, but I think he's probably almost as quick. The problem seems to be that when he's got a chance to take advantage of being quicker or more fortunate than Lewis, while Nico would grab it every single time and take great delight in it, Bottas seems to either be really unlucky and lose his chance, or just fail to grab hold of it. He's quite meek. He just lacks that final 5%, and I don't mean of pace, but selfishness, forcefulness, the mentality that separates the good from the great. And if he's never learned that by now after what, five years alongside Lewis, he never will. 

 

But he's currently not required to be a world beater is he - just a solid number two to Lewis as he racks up the titles. And that's what he is, no more no less. If Mercedes are happy, if Toto's happy, if he's happy and if Lewis is carrying on, why would they need to change that? George Russell, with all due respect to him, needs to get his head down and score some points for Williams before he gets all cocky about taking the place of a guy who can win races, score enough points to win Mercedes the WCC and has the experience and harmony with Lewis. People seem to think it's a dead cert that Bottas will be gone in 2022, I'm not so sure. Sometimes if you only need an 8/10 driver in your car, an 8/10 driver in your car is just perfect. 

[P123]

Is this what we've moved on to from the 'Mercedes are torturing us, they're going to walk it, Red Bull and Max should give up now' mantra?

[ExEd]

Is this what we've moved on to from the 'Mercedes are torturing us, they're going to walk it, Red Bull and Max should give up now' mantra?

I giggled 🤭

[P123]

He will toe the line, as he was scouted and hired to do. I don't think he has it in him to do a Nico and mentally take the fight to Lewis. Also I don't see where he would go that would be better. All the teams you might expect to come good in 2022 have young pretenders that he would just be hired to do the same job he does at Mercedes for, so as long as he makes a nuisance of himself for other teams and doesn't get in the way of a Lewis/Merc title bid he's doing a perfect job and can cry himself to sleep thinking about the pole positions and wins he otherwise never would have had.

He would look great if Hamilton couldn't participate in a handful of qualifying sessions, had to start from the back, if Lewis's pursuit of his race lead was scuppered by a water leak, if his teammate missed free practice sessions, retired from the lead.  And when running in second if the lead car could maybe blow a tyre on a couple of occasions too whilst he was chasing it, that would be handy, along with an opportune VSC to save his bacon.....  problem is, VB just does't have that sort of good fortune, at all.  He has the opposite. Like running over a shard of debris on the widest straight in the world on the penultimate lap at Baku, instantly puncturing his tyre and losing victory as a result.  maybe that was Toto's fault, not sure. And on track, he's probably just a bit too passive in general, against anybody.  Remember the meal he made out of getting past Max at Monza one season.  Bottling out of taking a lunge for the lead against Vettel in Bahrain.  He's appeared tougher when being lapped by his teammate.

[motorhead]

I believe he would be an asset to RB, he would bring probably some useful data with him as well

[loki]

No.

[Dolph]

This OP is all absolute nonsense. I bet Valtteri is seeing the big picture. He is driving the best car in the world and getting big bucks to do it. He gets a few wins, a few poles and a boatload of podiums each year. If his car finishes he is pretty much guaranteed a podium visit.

 

What would be his plan B? Go to a team that would likely pay him less, he'd get no wins and a lucky podium a year is the best case scenario. He could still end up with a teammate that beats him on a regular basis  because he is just better, or the car suits them more or they could be more 50-50. All for a team that could maybe treat him better. The new team could also scapegoat him or dump him, because they need to cut cost or there is a driver with more suitable nationality. Just NO! Bottas has plenty of time to drive a mid-grid car, when his time with Merc is ended by Merc themselves.

 

Bottas is exhibiting good self control, because he emotionally mature and does not have delusions. After all - he is a very highly paid professional sportsman representing a big brand. Many other F1 drivers could take heed. There are few benefits in throwing tantrums when things go bad. The Merc wheel gun guy failed him on Sunday, it was a big mistake, but stuff happens.

Edited by Dolph, 25 May 2021 - 15:08.

[FullOppositeLock]

He would look great if Hamilton couldn't participate in a handful of qualifying sessions, had to start from the back, if Lewis's pursuit of his race lead was scuppered by a water leak, if his teammate missed free practice sessions, retired from the lead.  And when running in second if the lead car could maybe blow a tyre on a couple of occasions too whilst he was chasing it, that would be handy, along with an opportune VSC to save his bacon.....  problem is, VB just does't have that sort of good fortune, at all.  He has the opposite. Like running over a shard of debris on the widest straight in the world on the penultimate lap at Baku, instantly puncturing his tyre and losing victory as a result.  maybe that was Toto's fault, not sure. And on track, he's probably just a bit too passive in general, against anybody.  Remember the meal he made out of getting past Max at Monza one season.  Bottling out of taking a lunge for the lead against Vettel in Bahrain.  He's appeared tougher when being lapped by his teammate.

 

I assume that's in reference to Nico's title? My point was that Bottas is not a good enough driver to carry Mercedes in Lewis' absence. He finished the 2017 WDC behind a Ferrari, 2018 WDC behind two Ferrari's and a Red Bull. In 2019 and 2020 the Mercedes dominance was such that he finished second behind Lewis which could have make Toto consider if Bottas was worth hanging on even if Lewis decides to retire. 2021 is putting paid to that idea I would say. As strong as Mercedes still is, it's Lewis who is keeping them in the championship battles now Red Bull seemingly have managed to close the gap sufficiently to allow Max to take the fight to Lewis.

[Dolph]

I assume that's in reference to Nico's title? My point was that Bottas is not a good enough driver to carry Mercedes in Lewis' absence. He finished the 2017 WDC behind a Ferrari, 2018 WDC behind two Ferrari's and a Red Bull. In 2019 and 2020 the Mercedes dominance was such that he finished second behind Lewis which could have make Toto consider if Bottas was worth hanging on even if Lewis decides to retire. 2021 is putting paid to that idea I would say. As strong as Mercedes still is, it's Lewis who is keeping them in the championship battles now Red Bull seemingly have managed to close the gap sufficiently to allow Max to take the fight to Lewis.

 

If Lewis decides to retire, keeping Bottas next to a newcomer is a nobrainer.

[Kao18]

He mighty fancy his chances next season, you never know with the new cars, Monaco might have given him renewed hope, in case Lewis struggles.

 

I cant imagine he'll leave voluntarily before wanting to give it one more shot next season, but its not going to be up to him obviously.

[F1matt]

The poor guy needs to rebuild his career, he has no credibility in the sport, even his team principal has no respect for him now. He needs to find a team where he can get his confidence back, fall in love with the sport and prove he is still a decent driver even if it means finding a seat in Indycar or the WEC. 

[FullOppositeLock]

If Lewis decides to retire, keeping Bottas next to a newcomer is a nobrainer.

Before this season I would have agreed. Now I’m not so sure. Max has his number, and why would you want Bottas taking points off Russell who is their long term project? If I was Toto I would do everything in my power to keep Lewis for at least one more year and bring Russell in to build him up to be the Max/Charles/Lando beater they need medium to long term?

[cpbell]

Bottas isn't as strong relative to Lewis as Nico was, but I think he's probably almost as quick. The problem seems to be that when he's got a chance to take advantage of being quicker or more fortunate than Lewis, while Nico would grab it every single time and take great delight in it, Bottas seems to either be really unlucky and lose his chance, or just fail to grab hold of it. He's quite meek. He just lacks that final 5%, and I don't mean of pace, but selfishness, forcefulness, the mentality that separates the good from the great. And if he's never learned that by now after what, five years alongside Lewis, he never will. 

 

But he's currently not required to be a world beater is he - just a solid number two to Lewis as he racks up the titles. And that's what he is, no more no less. If Mercedes are happy, if Toto's happy, if he's happy and if Lewis is carrying on, why would they need to change that? George Russell, with all due respect to him, needs to get his head down and score some points for Williams before he gets all cocky about taking the place of a guy who can win races, score enough points to win Mercedes the WCC and has the experience and harmony with Lewis. People seem to think it's a dead cert that Bottas will be gone in 2022, I'm not so sure. Sometimes if you only need an 8/10 driver in your car, an 8/10 driver in your car is just perfect. 

I think the problem here is that we can't compare Bottas's performances in the Mercedes and Russell's in the Williams as we don't have a benchmark to show us how much slower the Williams is, and I don't think Mercedes can keep Russell waiting much longer before one of the other teams offers him a seat in their team.

[shure]

Before this season I would have agreed. Now I’m not so sure. Max has his number, and why would you want Bottas taking points off Russell who is their long term project? If I was Toto I would do everything in my power to keep Lewis for at least one more year and bring Russell in to build him up to be the Max/Charles/Lando beater they need medium to long term?

while I agree that Mercedes will likely want to keep Lewis as long as possible, if Bottas ends up taking any kind of significant number of points off Russell (or whoever ends up in the other seat) then that just means Russell / whoever would have been the wrong choice.  They have to be better than Bottas, as otherwise they will be leaving the car's potential on the table.  Maybe not all that much in qualifying, where Bottas to his credit can show a decent turn of speed, but in the races if they were happy with the return they get from Bottas they wouldn't be worried about Lewis leaving

[TomNokoe]

This was my immediate thought after Sunday, but then it dawned on me that should LH lose this championship, his relationship with Merc may suddenly nosedive (yes I truly believe this), which would put Bottas in a good position.

[HP]

For all the Rosberg comparisons, I think it’s very obvious that Rosberg was a much stronger driver than Bottas is.

Yep. And since Rosberg might have taken more points away from Hamilton, Hamilton might not be fighting this year for his 8th WDC title.

[P123]

The poor guy needs to rebuild his career, he has no credibility in the sport, even his team principal has no respect for him now. He needs to find a team where he can get his confidence back, fall in love with the sport and prove he is still a decent driver even if it means finding a seat in Indycar or the WEC. 

Are you talking about Danny Ric, Fernando or Valterri... one of those comfortably outqualified their more decorated teammate at the lat race.

[aportinga]

If Bottas can outlast Hamilton at Mercedes, he might be able to get a jump on the new guy, Felipe Massa style. Best I can do for career advice.

 

They will bring over Russell and Bottas can support him.