1364 replies to this topic

[Bliman]

If Mercedes delivered the goods in Spa, Monza, Turkey, and Hungary, they would be leading the championship right now.  It's been fairly 50/50. Merc had their tracks. RB had their tracks. What you are seeing is the fact that when RB is quick, they convert to wins.  When Mercedes are quick, they do not convert to wins at the same rate.  Merc have had their opportunities, and they wasted most of them.  In the end, I'm quite content with what we've seen. The difference has simply been Mercedes unable to deliver the goods when the tracks favored them. Instead, taking engine penalties, running poor strategy, and a driver error here and there.

 

Anyone thinking RB are dominant is just looking for excuses to absolve Mercedes of any blame for losing. 

I haven't seen many saying that Red Bull is dominant.

[ARTGP]

Are you really bringing Spa in? There wasn't a race there. That is like saying that Red Bull didn't deliver in Mexico. It was ludicrous to give points for no race. Monza Hamilton got taken out that isn't on them unless you are putting the blame on Max for Silverstone. Turkey and Hungary I don't remember too well I should check it out.

 

1) Spa, was a full wet weekend, and they ran a dry setup in qualy when they'd already been quickest in all free practice. Doesn't matter if points were given. If Merc sat on pole, they would have increased the gap.

2) Monza, Lewis had a slipstream in qualy, did not get pole and then had a messy sprint race while Mercedes gave Lewis's wingman a grid drop for the main race. Monza should have been Mercedes 1-2 full stop. No bs, no excuses.

3) Turkey, Lewis sat on pole Merc 1-2 and Merc took a grip drop for him instead of winning that race 1-2. Max had no answer to Bottas, in the wet.....Lewis would have won that race by 20 seconds. No bs, no excuses it's on them.

4) Hungary, Max was nowhere with his broken car and Mercedes still didn't win a race they sat on pole for. No bs, no excuses.

 

These were their tracks and they wasted all of them.  Contrast that with RB. Consistently winning "their tracks".  

Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 17:30.

[Bliman]

1) Spa, was a full wet weekend, and they ran a dry setup in qualy when they'd already been quickest in all free practice.

2) Monza, Lewis had a slipstream in qualy, did not get pole and then had a messy sprint race while Mercedes gave Lewis's wingman a grid drop for the main race. Monza should have been Mercedes 1-2 full stop. No bs, no excuses.

3) Turkey, Lewis sat on pole Merc 1-2 and Merc took a grip drop for him instead of winning that race 1-2. No bs, no excuses it's on them.

4) Hungary, Max was nowhere with his broken car and Mercedes still didn't win a race they sat on pole for. No bs, no excuses.

 

These were there tracks and they wasted all of them.  Contrast that with RB. Consistently winning "their tracks".  

1) Spa wasn't a race. No race no points imo. no bs no excuses.

2)Monza again he was taken out, or again do you blame Max for Silverstone?

3)Turkey had Hamilton a new motor? And you blame them for that? You rather would have liked the engine would go boom?

4)Hungary I have to check it again.

[GentlemanDriver091]

1) Spa wasn't a race. No race no points imo. no bs no excuses.
2)Monza again he was taken out, or again do you blame Max for Silverstone?
3)Turkey had Hamilton a new motor? And you blame them for that? You rather would have liked the engine would go boom?
4)Hungary I have to check it again.

1. Luckily for Mercedes, there wasn’t a race, because their setup was wrong from the beginning.
2. If Merc had taken pole, like they should’ve, they shouldn’t be there racing Max.

[Bliman]

1. Luckily for Mercedes, there wasn’t a race, because their setup was wrong from the beginning.
2. If Merc had taken pole, like they should’ve, they shouldn’t be there racing Max.

1) I 100% agree with that. But there wasn't a race so we never know what would have happened. So this isn't on Mercedes the FIA decided to give points for that.

2) I 100% agree with that. But we never know what the result would have been because he got taken out.

[ARTGP]

1) Spa wasn't a race. No race no points imo. no bs no excuses.

2)Monza again he was taken out, or again do you blame Max for Silverstone?

3)Turkey had Hamilton a new motor? And you blame them for that? You rather would have liked the engine would go boom?

4)Hungary I have to check it again.

 

Mercedes and Lewis are a team. The group effort wasted 4 GPs that were "theirs".

 

1) Points in spa doesn't matter. They should have been on pole on their circuit. 

2) Lewis should have been on pole in Monza for the sprint race. Valterri should also have been on pole for the main race. Neither of these scenarios happened because as a team, they somehow managed to put Verstappen on pole at their circuit. Everything that happened afterwards is the result of that. 

3) Mercedes engine unreliability cost Lewis the win in Turkey. It's a team effort. Win and lose as a team. Lewis should have won here if not for Mercedes PU. This was their circuit and they shot themselves in the foot.

4) Pole, questionably decision making, Verstappen no where in sigh, and they still didn't win.

 

 

I am not blaming lewis in every event. As I said, it's a team effort. Sometimes he is a fault, sometimes the "factory" is at fault. Sometimes the pit wall is at fault. But it's a team, and as a team they failed to capitalize on 4 GPs they should have won.

Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 17:50.

[shure]

1) Spa wasn't a race. No race no points imo. no bs no excuses.

2)Monza again he was taken out, or again do you blame Max for Silverstone?

3)Turkey had Hamilton a new motor? And you blame them for that? You rather would have liked the engine would go boom?

4)Hungary I have to check it again.

I think the point being made is to look beyond the result at the chances Merc may have squandered.  EG in Monza Lewis arguably shouldn't even have been in that position to have had the crash if he'd have not lost places at the start of the sprint race.  

 

Re: Turkey - most teams have a certain leeway to choose when to replace components, unless they've been in an accident.  I guess the question is was choosing to replace the PU there the best decision they could have made, given they threw away a pole and likely win?

[Bliman]

Mercedes and Lewis are a team. The group effort wasted 4 GPs that were "theirs".

 

1) Points in spa doesn't matter. They should have been on pole on their circuit. 

2) Lewis should have been on pole in Monza. Valterri should also have been on pole. Neither of these scenarios happened, incredibly for reasons that are the team's fault

3) Mercedes engine unreliability cost Lewis the win in Turkey. It's a team effort. Win and lose as a team. Lewis should have won here if not for Mercedes PU. This was their circuit and they shot themselves in the foot.

4) Pole, questionably decision making, Verstappen no where in sigh, and they still didn't win.

Ah if you are seeing it that way. I agree that they needed to be on pole in Spa, no question. The same with Monza, But it is a stretch for me to blame them for being taken out because of that. Like I said if you blame them for that you should also blame Red Bull for the pole in Mexico. But they were so much faster it didn't matter the same with the race in Austin where Max lost the lead at the start. Again Red Bull was faster and converted it to a win. 3) It seems like every team has to change parts, no?

4)Wasn't that the race where he was alone on the grid. Difficult decision but I put indeed the blame on Mercedes but it was a difficult one because he was on pole.

[Bliman]

I think the point being made is to look beyond the result at the chances Merc may have squandered.  EG in Monza Lewis arguably shouldn't even have been in that position to have had the crash if he'd have not lost places at the start of the sprint race.  

 

Re: Turkey - most teams have a certain leeway to choose when to replace components, unless they've been in an accident.  I guess the question is was choosing to replace the PU there the best decision they could have made, given they threw away a pole and likely win?

I know what they are trying to say. And with Monza they surely should have been on pole. But I wouldn't put that squarely on Mercedes because we never know where they would have ended in the race. And it is not like Red Bull was slow there. Mercedes has squandered a couple of times. But if you see how many points Max lost due to bad luck I still see a clear pattern. Could Hamilton be closer to Max if they don't have squandered a couple of times. I think so. But to do that they would have needed to be perfect. And that is very very rare to see over a season from any team. And I also don't think they had the car to do that. The car has been all over the place.

[ARTGP]

I know what they are trying to say. And with Monza they surely should have been on pole. But I wouldn't put that squarely on Mercedes because we never know where they would have ended in the race. 

 

The fact that Mercedes would somehow do something other than "win their track", is the difference between Red Bull and Mercedes this season. You've spotted that perfectly. Your uncertainty when they start from pole on their circuit, is shared by many other Merc fans.  By and large, when RB "have their circuit", they win and don't look back. 

Edited by ARTGP, 08 November 2021 - 18:11.

[Bliman]

The fact that Mercedes would somehow do something other than "win their track", is the difference between Red Bull and Mercedes this season. You've spotted that perfectly.  By and large, when RB "have their circuit", there is almost no doubt that they will win the race. The "uncertainty" that you are picking up on when it comes to Mercedes, has been their problem.  Look at the Merc thread when a Merc starts are pole or for a Merc track. Many fans completely distrust Merc to deliver from pole. There is a full expectation that Vowles will throw away the race.

I am part of that group. To me, Red Bull operations are pretty perfect. They have stellar pitstops and strategies. Bold when needed, conservative when it must.

Mercedes are just worse that to me is very clear. But that is separate from the car issue.

Maybe you are right if they converted the season perfectly they would have had a chance. But honestly, I don't think they have the car for that which at the same time hurts their operations (which has been a weak point for many years now). So it is an and and situation. It adds up.

Like I said so many times. The Red Bull car is just more consistent and has very few weak points. While I think that Mercedes has a car that is faster at the straight and that is it. But that is not enough. I think to convert that strength they needed one more pole positions and second a better teammate to hold Max up. Because if Mercedes has the pole Red Bull can force Mercedes by following Hamilton closely and getting them on strategy.

[Lowgrip]

Car performance advantage if any, is of zero use if you have cr*ppy strategies.

Mercedes strategies are more often than not 1 or 2 laps late. Like they have to update their software page or something and boom, 1 lap or 2 have passed.

When two teams are fighting for the championship , team operations should be included when assessing "car" performance because often than not it is in the pits that championships are won or lost.

2007, 2010, 2012, 2021.

[Ivanhoe]

Car performance advantage if any, is of zero use if you have cr*ppy strategies.

Mercedes strategies are more often than not 1 or 2 laps late. Like they have to update their software page or something and boom, 1 lap or 2 have passed.

When two teams are fighting for the championship , team operations should be included when assessing "car" performance because often than not it is in the pits that championships are won or lost.

2007, 2010, 2012, 2021.

Strategy probably saved Lewis’ P2 this time though. 

[Lowgrip]

Strategy probably saved Lewis’ P2 this time though.

You mean when they released him right behind Leclerc?

That P2 was all on RedBull. I guess not even them could imagine Lewis/Mercedes would be that slow.

Sometimes Mercedes have sound strategies but on average they are subpar compared to the best.

Edited by Lowgrip, 08 November 2021 - 19:13.

[PayasYouRace]

Given that the poll was first posed in June, after Baku, opinions might have changed.

 

So I've created a new thread with a new poll. Please continue discussion there. Feel free to use the multi quote function to address each other's points if need be.