945 replies to this topic

[TomNokoe]

Part two of F1's summer triple-header brings us to the Red Bull Ring for part one of a Styria-Austria double-header, transposed from 2020's Austria-Styria lineup. Why? Who knows!

 

Conversely, there's been far less chopping and changing in the battle for the world championship. Verstappen has powerfully assumed his position as King of the Hill, but Hamilton and Mercedes will be primed to strike back, high in the Spielberg mountains.

 

Even in years less dramatic than this, Styria/Austria is usually the place for shocks and upset. When you dial it up to F1: 2021 style, things could get crazy!

It is Round 8 of the 2021 FIA Formula One World Championship.

 

 

 

The Forecast after France (speaking of forecasts...)

Red Bull's low downforce setup worked a treat at Paul Ricard, and they'll be hoping they can put it to even better effect at their home race. A circuit that has been good to them in recent years, almost as if Mateschitz himself had curried favour with the racing gods. On paper, they look strong, but if this season has taught us anything, it's to expect the unexpected. With a disrupted weekend on the horizon, they will need to be on top form...

 

... which is exactly what has alluded Mercedes. Own goals are at an all-time high at Euro 2020, and the habit seems contagious. Thankfully, they won't have to ponder their French Fumble for too long. A great opportunity to counter-attack Red Bull in their own backyard. There's pace in the W12, and definitely on Sundays, but Mercedes must be careful not to chase their tails trying to find the sweet spot, a dizzying prospect at these altitudes that could quickly get away from them.

 

Rumours of McLaren's demise were greatly exaggerated. A stunning Sunday showcase catapulted them back into 3rd place in the constructors' and left their Italian rivals reeling. They will come to Styria with fond memories from 2020: Norris' maiden podium and last-lap dash, and 2019: Sainz' back-of-the-grid charge. Slow corners remain Ricciardo's nemesis, and nowhere are they more tricky to master, but two weekends at the same track is a great opportunity to get on top of this once and for all. Suddenly looking forwards instead of behind.

 

Ferrari will be glad to see the back of Paul Ricard and can be optimistic for the weekend ahead. An ICE disadvantage that should be neutralised at altitude, a strong ERS package that won't be. A short, sharp, slow-corner oriented track that should perfectly suit their magic front-end and tyre-warmup wizardry. Or am I getting ahead of myself? Leclerc has finished 2nd here in consecutive years and is due another one of his Q3 specials. Sainz, despite the result, had a much better weekend in France and will be aiming to maximise his result if the car is strong. A lingering question over race pace and tyre wear, but hopefully it was just a one-off last time out.

 

It could be a double delight for Red Bull if both Alpha Tauris can produce the goods at their home track. Gasly continues to star in 2021 and is another solid bet to gate-crash the top 6. Tsunoda, however, for every step forward, is taking two steps back. If there is anywhere where he can get back on form, it has to be the circuit where he took his maiden F2 pole last year. An important weekend for him personally and worth paying special attention to.

 

Aston Martin has steadied the ship and is starting to look like the midfield contender we know they can be. Shoots of pace are being disguised by tiny errors and poor weekend execution, despite both cars scoring in France. Rear limited tracks seem to suit them slightly better, so another weekend where they can possibly surprise. Vettel's mini points streak is continuing to build momentum, and Stroll must be commended for bouncing back superbly from both his Baku crash and Q1 elimination last week.

 

The question mark over Alpine still looms large. Alonso made good on his "season starts here" promise, whilst Ocon languished badly outside the points. Similar to Ferrari, the altitude should help to equalise their assumed power shortfall. The Jekyll and Hyde of the midfield.

 

On any other weekend, "battling with Leclerc" would have sounded brilliant for Alfa Romeo, but as it was, their mini points scoring spurt came to a juddering halt. They are celebrating their 111th birthday with a special livery that looks very much like the standard livery. Kubica subs for Kimi in FP1.

 

My outside tip for the weekend is Mick Schumacher and Haas. Their car has performed much better relative to the midfield in low/med DF trim all season, and similar to their big brother team, the circuit characteristics should help to blunt their deficiencies. Those who followed Mick in F3 and F2 will remember some stirring drives at this track, and after a tiny glimpse of pace in France, let's see what it can become this weekend.

 

Finally, Williams will be buoyed by a bonafide P12 last week. The track should suit them too, with extra consideration being given to the less windy forecast! Momentum is starting to build again after an early season dip. Can Russell emulate former Mercedes junior Pascal Wehrlein for a surprise point?

 

Weather, Tyres

Spoiler

 

A very disrupted outlook. Friday looks almost a certain washout, with maybe a glimmer of dry running in FP1.

 

Saturday and Sunday seem far less certain. Apparently, it was hailing on Wednesday!

 

 

The standard range of compounds, matching last year's selection.

 

The effect of the rear pressures increase may have been disguised at Paul Ricard thanks to the green track and front tyre degradation. It's very difficult to disguise rear tyre issues at this circuit, so look out for some unexpected tyre trouble.

 

Speaking of tyre pressures: 21.5 psi (front) | 20.0 psi (rear)

 

Schedule

       BST (UK)  |  CEST (Most of Europe)
FP1    1030         1130
FP2    1400         1500
FP3    1100         1200
Q      1400         1500
R      1400         1500

Time zone conversion here.

 

Great to see that W Series are supporting F1 for the first time this weekend. Full schedule.

 

--

 

Thoughts, predictions, hypothetical technical directives, scheduling concerns, sausage kerb analysis, and altitude sickness remedies (it's only 700m for goodness sake), all welcome below ...

Edited by TomNokoe, 25 June 2021 - 08:06.

[krapmeister]

It's a shame they can't/won't use the full extension of this track for the second race - basically bringing it closer to the old Österreichring layout. I was under the impression that it had all been brought up to spec?

[YamahaV10]

The new Honda power unit really made the Red Bull look like the better car. We shall see if that translates the same here.

[zibby43]

The new Honda power unit really made the Red Bull look like the better car. We shall see if that translates the same here.

I think it was merely down to the fact that Mercedes ran a significantly larger rear wing.

Matthew Somerfield wrote an excellent piece on how RW choices for the race have dictated strategy/outcome in virtually every race this season.

[CoolBreeze]

Hope for rain to spice things up a little

[ARTGP]

I think it was merely down to the fact that Mercedes ran a significantly larger rear wing.

Matthew Somerfield wrote an excellent piece on how RW choices for the race have dictated strategy/outcome in virtually every race this season.

 

Mercedes don't seem to think that. 

[HeadFirst]

Great intro to the first of the Austrian double header. Thanks Tom.

[Requiem84]

Mercedes don't seem to think that.

Mercedes seems to think a lot.

Perhaps they should stop thinking and start racing.

[zibby43]

Mercedes don't seem to think that.

Tactics.

They also said publicly the flexi-wing was worth 5-6 tenths when, in reality, the engineers said privately it was worth about 2 tenths.

[jradicals]

I notice our friends at 'eyetime' and 'MyWorld' have been ousted as title sponsor this year  Replaced by the water merchants.

[mclara]

Mercedes seems to think a lot.

Perhaps they should stop thinking and start racing.

So what have they been doing so far? playing golf?

 

Hamilton pointed out the straight line speed advantage of the Red Bulls in France.

The worrying part for mercedes is that RB didn't seem to loose much time in the last sector despite smaller rear wing.

[JimmyClark]

So what have they been doing so far? playing golf?

Hamilton pointed out the straight line speed advantage of the Red Bulls in France.
The worrying part for mercedes is that RB didn't seem to loose much time in the last sector despite smaller rear wing.

Didn't Honda have a new spec of engine in France? They seem to be throwing the kitchen sink at their final year.

[shure]

Didn't Honda have a new spec of engine in France? They seem to be throwing the kitchen sink at their final year.

They're not allowed to change the spec this year I believe.  I read a report recently where Horner says he doesn't understand why Wolff said that Honda have recently overtaken Mercedes with their latest spec because the spec has been the same all year.  Can't find it now, unfortunately

[Nemo1965]

Mercedes seems to think a lot.

Perhaps they should stop thinking and start racing.

 

 

Tactics.

They also said publicly the flexi-wing was worth 5-6 tenths when, in reality, the engineers said privately it was worth about 2 tenths.

 

 

So what have they been doing so far? playing golf?

 

Hamilton pointed out the straight line speed advantage of the Red Bulls in France.

The worrying part for mercedes is that RB didn't seem to loose much time in the last sector despite smaller rear wing.

 

It is strange but... if I look back at several races this year, Mercedes seem to choose non-optimal strategies because their starting-point seems to be: 'We have the best car and if Red Bull is quicker it is because of an unfair advantage.' Three examples. 1. The flexing rear-wings. Obviously. All the energy they spend on blabbing about it and they 'forgot' to bring a good setup to Baku. 2. Paul Ricard: Not pitting Bottas for the fastest lap, because Perez should have gotten a penalty for leaving the track (that is what they reckoned). 3. Paul Ricard: Red Bull is faster on the straights, they have a smaller wing, their tires will suffer more than ours... so they won't make a 2-stopper work. 

 

If Mercedes would just buckle up and channel Nigel Mansell less, it would be more enjoyable for the fans. Lewis and Max seem to respect each other, by the way... no back and forth whining there. 

[mclara]

Didn't Honda have a new spec of engine in France? They seem to be throwing the kitchen sink at their final year.

Probably. Honda said they had done some changes to the deployment. I guess just like you get updates to your EV and thus more perfomance or like how you get more FPS from a game by updates..

Either way it they had higher top speed and equal or better last sector time to Mercedes in France.

[mclara]

It is strange but... if I look back at several races this year, Mercedes seem to choose non-optimal strategies because their starting-point seems to be: 'We have the best car and if Red Bull is quicker it is because of an unfair advantage.' Three examples. 1. The flexing rear-wings. Obviously. All the energy they spend on blabbing about it and they 'forgot' to bring a good setup to Baku. 2. Paul Ricard: Not pitting Bottas for the fastest lap, because Perez should have gotten a penalty for leaving the track (that is what they reckoned). 3. Paul Ricard: Red Bull is faster on the straights, they have a smaller wing, their tires will suffer more than ours... so they won't make a 2-stopper work. 

 

If Mercedes would just buckle up and channel Nigel Mansell less, it would be more enjoyable for the fans. Lewis and Max seem to respect each other, by the way... no back and forth whining there. 

Remember when Red Bull was complaining after Protugal about how much they have lost due to strange track limits. Or as you would put it; blaming others...

[engineblock1]

Judging by the current forecast, both races could be dry. The hot dry spell was broken yesterday with heavy rain and hailstorm but sunshine is back at least here in Vienna and next 10 days forecast suggest it will stay like that.

 

Planning to attend the Austrian GP as for Styrian GP, general admission tickets are not up for sale.

[Nemo1965]

Remember when Red Bull was complaining after Protugal about how much they have lost due to strange track limits. Or as you would put it; blaming others...

 

 

There always will be complaining and excuses. But I can't remember a top-team like Mercedes scoring own goals so much because the principal actors follow their complaints with strategic decisions based on them. At least, that is my impression... 

[shure]

Probably. Honda said they had done some changes to the deployment. I guess just like you get updates to your EV and thus more perfomance or like how you get more FPS from a game by updates..

Either way it they had higher top speed and equal or better last sector time to Mercedes in France.

They haven't.  Just Wolff throwing another wild accusation out there.  Found it again:

 

 

But Mercedes boss Toto Wolff suspected the engine was key to Red Bull's charge, stating: "They have made a huge step forward with their power unit. And their race car is good, no doubt about that."

However, with F1's homologation rules meaning teams must run with the same specification engine all season, Red Bull team principal Christian Horner denied such claims and insisted "we cannot make progress".

"I don't know what he's referencing there," he said.

"This is the same specification as the first unit. We've run a much smaller rear wing, so that's why the straight line performance was strong.

"I think Honda are doing a great job, but we don't see a sudden significant increase in power."

https://www.skysport...ia-back-to-back

[jjcale]

Thanks Tom.

 

My primary interest in this round will be to see if Merc can get on top of setting up their car .... its getting a bit ridiculous now, given their resources.... but hopefully two races at same track, back to back, will give them enough data to sort things out. 

 

Redbull may regret their decision to host two races when they do their review at the end of the season. 

Edited by jjcale, 25 June 2021 - 07:06.

[shure]

Thanks Tom.

 

My primary interest in this round will be to see if Merc can get on top of setting up their car .... its getting a bit ridiculous now, given their resources.... but hopefully two races at same track, back to back, will give them enough data to sort things out. 

resource-wise, they can't spend their way out of trouble anymore.  Agree it's odd that they're having so many issues all of a sudden, but I guess it's also because we're so used to seeing them sail serenely through everything these last few years.

 

I think they will, though.  Already in France they had improved significantly from Baku and were very competitive.  The result wasn't down to any problems with equipment.  And in a recent interview Toto seemed quite bullish that they knew what to target, so I'm confident they'll bounce back and I shouldn't be surprised the see them at the front again this weekend

[JeePee]

My respect for Mercedes is in a decline. Toto and Lewis have surpassed Helmut Marko with stupid claims this year.

[aray]

Hope for rain to spice things up a little

Forcast is all weekend rain.

[aray]

My respect for Mercedes is in a decline. Toto and Lewis have surpassed Helmut Marko with stupid claims this year.

I wish they decline throughout the year and make mistakes.

[A3]

 

The worrying part for mercedes is that RB didn't seem to loose much time in the last sector despite smaller rear wing.

 

Because RBR run a different concept, a high rake car. A lot of downforce comes from the floor where Merc needs to rely more on the rear wing. At speed, the rear squats down and combined with a powerful Honda we finally see the car like Newey intended it for years. 

[Heyli]

Forcast is all weekend rain.

No, not really. As it looks now, only Fp2 has a significant risk of rain. 

[d246]

Interesting to hear Alonso say that teams will treat the Practice Sessions much more like an in-season test due to the fact that it's the same track one week apart. This will give them more scope to focus on other things rather than solely quali/race set-up.

[JimmyClark]

It does amaze me we've never had a wet race at this circuit since it's reincarnation in 1997. If the next two races are dry, that's 17 in a row.

But when you think how many wet qualis and practices there have been, it's even more extraordinary.

[mclara]

They haven't.  Just Wolff throwing another wild accusation out there.  Found it again:

 

https://www.skysport...ia-back-to-back

Expect that they do; https://asnmp.com/20...ngine-comments/

“The power unit is the same [specification] all the time, but we are learning better how to use energy management for every race."

ghout

I'm pretty sure that Toto of all people know that you can't change the PU. It was probalby somthing like that he was referring to, knowing that Merc had their own issue with harvesting earlier this year...

[Ivanhoe]

They're not allowed to change the spec this year I believe.  I read a report recently where Horner says he doesn't understand why Wolff said that Honda have recently overtaken Mercedes with their latest spec because the spec has been the same all year.  Can't find it now, unfortunately

As has been said before, they are allowed to do reliability upgrades, which can also be a performance upgrade as that may allow them to run their engines harder. You are also allowed to work on your hybrid systems so that may also bring performance. As Red Bull allegedly had vibration issues since the first GP causing problems to their battery, this second batch may well have given them some extra performance. 

[mclara]

Because RBR run a different concept, a high rake car. A lot of downforce comes from the floor where Merc needs to rely more on the rear wing. At speed, the rear squats down and combined with a powerful Honda we finally see the car like Newey intended it for years. 

Im pretty sure they already know this. It is still a big problem for Mercedes.....

[blacky]

No, not really. As it looks now, only Fp2 has a significant risk of rain. 

 

Yep, thunderstorms can always happen this time of the year, but tomorrow should be dry, sunday maybe a bit rain in the afternoon. FP2 should be wet today, maybe even FP1, let's see.

 

There won't be much rubber on the track however before qualifying.

[shure]

As has been said before, they are allowed to do reliability upgrades, which can also be a performance upgrade as that may allow them to run their engines harder. You are also allowed to work on your hybrid systems so that may also bring performance. As Red Bull allegedly had vibration issues since the first GP causing problems to their battery, this second batch may well have given them some extra performance. 

It's possibly semantics, because I read spec upgrade as new and improved components with a different design from before, whereas eg software improvements or strengthening of components to allow them to push harder doesn't really fall under that category to me, since it just allows them to unlock potential that's already there, rather than introduce extra.  I don't want to make too big a deal out of it, but maybe just different interpretations.

 

I think I read somewhere that Honda had detuned their PUs slightly after Bahrain, due to reliability concerns, and they had resolved that recently, but again that could just be hearsay.  In any event Horner saying that it's the same spec suggest to me that physically at least nothing has changed, although maybe there might be eg software improvements.

[A3]

Im pretty sure they already know this. It is still a big problem for Mercedes.....

 

 

You mean just like Merc having the best engine for years and years was a problem for Red Bull?

[shure]

Expect that they do; https://asnmp.com/20...ngine-comments/

“The power unit is the same [specification] all the time, but we are learning better how to use energy management for every race."

ghout

I'm pretty sure that Toto of all people know that you can't change the PU. It was probalby somthing like that he was referring to, knowing that Merc had their own issue with harvesting earlier this year...

Again, possibly semantics, but the initial claim was a new spec engine, which both Horner and Tanabe deny in the article you've linked.  It's not a new spec engine, even if they are learning how to get more out of it.

[mclara]

Again, possibly semantics, but the initial claim was a new spec engine, which both Horner and Tanabe deny in the article you've linked.  It's not a new spec engine, even if they are learning how to get more out of it.

Don't you think Toto know that you cant introduce a new spec? So yes, semantics. The point was that Honda has improved. I don't see the point of arguing over grammar

[SophieB]

Ian Fergusson
@fergieweather
6m
#F1 #BBCF1 #STYRIANGP: Forecast today remains consistent for growing threat of showers/thunderstorms; a moderate risk by later in FP1; high for FP2. A reduced (but moderate) risk Sat; rising again for race on Sun. Latest FIA advice to teams is a 60% chance of showers during race.

 

[A3]

It's possibly semantics, because I read spec upgrade as new and improved components with a different design from before, whereas eg software improvements or strengthening of components to allow them to push harder doesn't really fall under that category to me, since it just allows them to unlock potential that's already there, rather than introduce extra.  I don't want to make too big a deal out of it, but maybe just different interpretations.

 

I think I read somewhere that Honda had detuned their PUs slightly after Bahrain, due to reliability concerns, and they had resolved that recently, but again that could just be hearsay.  In any event Horner saying that it's the same spec suggest to me that physically at least nothing has changed, although maybe there might be eg software improvements.

 

Exactly.

 

For this year's engine I believe Honda uses a patented cylinder coating developed together with Honda's motorcycle division which allows them to run the engine harder for longer. We have to assume that no engine in the fiield runs at 100%, as they would only last one or 2 races.

 

Let's say Honda ran their engines at 90% for the first races and now that they have installed the 2nd batch and have examined the first they may have been confident enough to run them at 93%. Still the same engine.

[statman]

[FullOppositeLock]

They look chuffed to be there in that attire 

[FullOppositeLock]

Regarding Honda, ExxonMobil also introduced a new spec of lubricant in Baku, which allows the Honda teams to run their power units hard for longer.

 

Edit - source: The Red Bull-Honda upgrade eight years in the making - The Race (the-race.com)

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 25 June 2021 - 08:20.

[ANF]

Hybrid era point scorers:

[Gary Davies]

I do try not to get cross. Honestly.     I'm currently listening to the Sky build up and unlike some here, I consider that they generally do good job. 

 

But they've just been interviewing Max V and Paul di Resta and he effing well tried (in my view) to sucker Max into responding to his inference that Lewis is resorting to mind games*. So impressed with Max's dignified and mature response in which he acknowledged that Lewis is a very formidable opponent and left PdR's silly question unanswered.

 

It comes down to intellectual horsepower. Max and Lewis - in my view - are Saturn 5 rockets in comparison to PdR, Sky's version of a £3.50 Guy Fawkes Night rocket. No contest.

 

Paul... Foxtrot Oscar please.

 

* well he might but that's not the point. Mind games are an integral part of all sport.

Edited by Gary Davies, 25 June 2021 - 08:33.

[Gary Davies]

They look chuffed to be there in that attire 

L to R:

• I'm comfortable

• You (Helmut) ain't seen what I can do yet.

• はぁ!?. Which I believe may be Japanese for wtf. 

• I don't trust anyone.

[Risil]

Thank you for this. I'm going to have to start humming the Radetsky March.

[Dolph]

 

 

Yuki: "I guess shaving my legs for this was a mistake. One day I'll get these European cultural things."

[shure]

Don't you think Toto know that you cant introduce a new spec? So yes, semantics. The point was that Honda has improved. I don't see the point of arguing over grammar

the original question by JimmyClark further up this page, which I answered, was whether Honda had introduced a new spec.  I said they hadn't; you then said they did.  Toto's claim and Horner's counter claim was just used as supporting evidence.  So no, in this particular instance it's not a grammar argument but a straightforward Q&A where the answer is no, Honda did not introduce a new spec.  It's not a minor point because if we start making claims like that it all gets very confusing as the regs state categorically that the specs can't change.  And the way these things work on here is that will get a life of its own and before you know it there'll be a thread debating when Mercedes will challenge Red Bull for having an illegal engine.  And for the rest of the year we'll be hearing how it's Ferrari 2019 all over again.

 

As for Honda improving, Horner says there was no "sudden significant increase in power" in France, so while we're all assuming that there was a step change in France specifically, driven largely by Toto's - and, to a lesser extent, Hamilton's - unsubstantiated claims, the quotes which you yourself provided state that Honda had been "learning better how to use energy management for every race."  Every race, not "we've made a big improvement in energy management this race."  So all in all, rather than being a semantics question, there's a lot of smoke being blown about Honda's PU improvements in France which haven't actually been substantiated by anyone.  Horner himself credits their new wing with providing the straight line speed improvements, so until we have some evidence that there has actually been a significant improvement in the Honda PU, which is entirely possible but so far not corroborated by anyone, then it's just yet another baseless Merc claim about the opposition.

[shure]

L to R:

• I'm comfortable

• You (Helmut) ain't seen what I can do yet.

• はぁ!?. Which I believe may be Japanese for wtf. 

• I don't trust anyone.

love it!     

[A3]

I do try not to get cross. Honestly.     I'm currently listening to the Sky build up and unlike some here, I consider that they generally do good job. 

 

But they've just been interviewing Max V and Paul di Resta and he effing well tried (in my view) to sucker Max into responding to his inference that Lewis is resorting to mind games*. So impressed with Max's dignified and mature response in which he acknowledged that Lewis is a very formidable opponent and left PdR's silly question unanswered.

 

It comes down to intellectual horsepower. Max and Lewis - in my view - are Saturn 5 rockets in comparison to PdR, Sky's version of a £3.50 Guy Fawkes Night rocket. No contest.

 

Paul... Foxtrot Oscar please.

 

* well he might but that's not the point. Mind games are an integral part of all sport.

 

https://streamable.com/xqkri3

[numberten]

PdR has always seemed a bit off to me when talking about Lewis. I guess they are both British, more or less the same age and one of them is the most successful driver in the history of the sport whilst the other is a back up commentator, so it's not hard to see why di Resta uses every opportunity to throw shade at him. Just a tad bitter about it. 

 

I am interested to see how the Max/Lewis dynamic develops over the season though as the points start to feel more vital and the pressure ramps up. They've both got history of getting a bit fiery but it's clear there's a huge amount of respect there, despite both of them appearing to confidently believe that they are the better driver. 

 

There's also a particular corner of this track that has seen them both involved in end of race collisions whilst fighting for the lead, could we see the first 'incident' of the season between them this weekend?