70 replies to this topic

[Boing 2]

Bizarre to think that his first race win in F1 was 1991, an astounding 30 years ago, his longevity far surpasses any tech director in the sports history and his car is still fighting for a title this year. Imagine if a designer from 1950 was leading the title fight in 1980! it's  mind numbing. It also answers the 90's favourite debate of Newey Vs Shuey rather decisively.

 

Almost more amazing is that in 30 years of racing his cars have only gone 4 seasons without a race win and 2 of those were spent building Red Bull up from the back of the grid.

 

[Ali_G]

Williams and Head not granting Newey equity in the team is one of the all time great mistakes in F1.

Imagine what those early 2000s Williams could have been with a better aero package.

[player1s]

2021 should be 5. 4x Max, 1x Sergio

[engineblock1]

I did not follow F1 before 2006 with detail but I heard from some fellows that this scorecard could have looked even better had Mercedes made McLaren some reliable engines between 2000-2005.

[Henri Greuter]

And for the record:  add his successes with the CART type March 85C and in particular the March 86C within Indycar to that list of achievements:

 

His designs had won three Indy 500's before he had an F1 type race winner.

 

He had success way before getting into F1.....

[Jovanotti]

I did not follow F1 before 2006 with detail but I heard from some fellows that this scorecard could have looked even better had Mercedes made McLaren some reliable engines between 2000-2005.

The early 2000s unreliability went hand in hand with Newey's radical designs though. MP 4/18 is all I say.

Edited by Jovanotti, 28 June 2021 - 07:57.

[dierome87]

I did not follow F1 before 2006 with detail but I heard from some fellows that this scorecard could have looked even better had Mercedes made McLaren some reliable engines between 2000-2005.

 

Yeah, McLaren arguably lost the 2000, 2003 and 2005 championships due to Mercedes' lack of reliability.

[Boing 2]

Williams and Head not granting Newey equity in the team is one of the all time great mistakes in F1.

Imagine what those early 2000s Williams could have been with a better aero package.

True, although all those blank spaces are titles won by other tech directors so he was beatable with the right team, Williams just never assembled that team unfortunately.

[PlatenGlass]

It also answers the 90's favourite debate of Newey Vs Shuey rather decisively.

What is the debate exactly?

And it doesn't anyway. Picking the 90s is an arbitrary subset of 10 years that they were competing together (well Schumacher didn't compete in all of the 90s anyway). And Schumacher only became a championship contender from 1994.

[Boing 2]

One other thing that stands out is how insane it is to have McLaren win 10 races in 05 and not get the title.

[Boing 2]

What is the debate exactly?

And it doesn't anyway. Picking the 90s is an arbitrary subset of 10 years that they were competing together (well Schumacher didn't compete in all of the 90s anyway). And Schumacher only became a championship contender from 1994.

The debate at the time was should you put your budget into hiring Schumacher to drive or Newey to design as MS spent most of the 90's racing against Newey's cars for the title.

[Astandahl]

The debate at the time was should you put your budget into hiring Schumacher to drive or Newey to design as MS spent most of the 90's racing against Newey's cars for the title.

Imagine having both

 

That would have been unfair and probably too easy, so it's better it went this way.

Edited by Astandahl, 28 June 2021 - 08:11.

[statman]

if you're interested in his approach and his engineering views, check this video:

 

[Anuity]

 It also answers the 90's favourite debate of Newey Vs Shuey rather decisively.

 

 

 

 

Not really.

Between 1992-2006

Newey cars won 91 races (from the table above) vs 91 victories for Michael.

And 6 Driver's Championships vs. 7 for Michael.

If anything it's a draw.

[Boing 2]

Not really.

Between 1992-2006

Newey cars won 91 races (from the table above) vs 91 victories for Michael.

And 6 Driver's Championships vs. 7 for Michael.

If anything it's a draw.

Yeah but Michael's career was done in 15 years, Newey's given that much time just to Red Bull alone.

[F1matt]

And for the record:  add his successes with the CART type March 85C and in particular the March 86C within Indycar to that list of achievements:

 

His designs had won three Indy 500's before he had an F1 type race winner.

 

He had success way before getting into F1.....

 

 

Didn't he also design a March IMSA winning car as well? 

[absinthedude]

His work for March in Indycars and then the Leyton House/March F1 cars already pointed to greatness. The fact that under the right circumstances Capelli and Gugelmin could run 1-2 in the March-Judd at Paul Ricard in 1990 was a pointer to that car being something a little special. Today just look at the front end in particular, it just looks "right" especially compared to what a lot of the other teams were doing at the time. He was making a very tight package, and making more attention to detail than the other designers. 

[Henri Greuter]

Didn't he also design a March IMSA winning car as well? 

 

I have to look that up but there were Gp C March designs already in '81 and '82. ( The "Lobster claw" cars)

So if he was responsible for an entire new design or if it was a result of his input into the exiting basic design, I am not sure on that.

 

 

And apart from his work on his own designs March 85C and 86C, he was Mario's engineer in 1987 so it hink it is safe to say that his input in optimising the Nigel Bennett designed Lola T8700 has not to be underestimated either....

 

 

Edit:  At Indy in the years 87-90 it did happen that teams opted for older cars instead of brand new ones, sometimes on purpose, sometime there was no other option left.

 

The 86C however was the only car desing that within the years 87-90 won at Indy despite being a year old desing and a successor being built. In fact, it was such a good car that there were backmarker teams participating in 1988 at indy with a 87C as primary car  and a 86C as a backup car but during the month went over to the older 86C because it was faster and easier to set up than the difficult 87C.

 

 

Even as late as 1989, one single 86C still managed to qualify for the 500 that year....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 June 2021 - 09:35.

[statman]

from an old article I could filter this:

 

1980: Formula 1: Chief Aerodynamicist Fittipaldi F8

1981: Formula 1: March Race engineer

1982: Formula 2: March Race engineer

1982/1983: IMSA: Designer March 82G GTP

1983: IMSA: Designer March 83G

1984: IMSA: Designer March 84G

1984: Indycar/CART: Designer/Race engineer True Sport

1985: Indycar/CART: Designer March 85C

1986: Indycar/CART: Designer March 86C

1987: Indycar/CART: Race engineer Newman Haas

1988: Formula 1: Designer Leyton House March 881

1989: Formula 1: Designer Leyton House March CG981

1990: Formula 1: Designer/Technical Director Leyton House March CG901

[kumo7]

So what is this all about? Newey signed the deal to move to Jag, which ultimately failed, and now I see pro version coming out as track only version with 3m20sec specification. 

Is Newey moving the camp to Aston????????         

[Afterburner]

One other thing that stands out is how insane it is to have McLaren win 10 races in 05 and not get the title.

That is nuts–and it also kind of sucks, too, because if he'd taken a title in the 00's, then winning this year would mean he's designed a title-winning car in four different decades.

Newey is definitely an F1 legend and one of my heroes. I think at times that as often as his praises are sung, they still aren't loud enough.
 

Not really.
Between 1992-2006
Newey cars won 91 races (from the table above) vs 91 victories for Michael.
And 6 Driver's Championships vs. 7 for Michael.
If anything it's a draw.

Wow, that's a really cool stat! How many poles did Newey's cars get?

EDIT: If you count it from the start of Michael's career it's actually 94 wins for Newey vs. 91 for Michael, but it goes down to 92 for Newey if you exclude the races in which Michael didn't take part during the '99 season. Of the 251 races in which Schumacher ran from '91-'06, he and Newey won a combined 72.5% of them. I don't have the time to find how many podiums lacked both of them, but I have a feeling it's as small in number as podiums without either Mercedes or Ferrari powered cars in the hybrid era!

[jcbc3]

Someone named Rory Byrne, might have an opinion about the sharing of accolades in Schumi's wins.

[KWSN - DSM]

Someone named Rory Byrne, might have an opinion about the sharing of accolades in Schumi's wins.

 

And that is the debate I recall, who is the better of Newey and Byrne... With my complete unbiased love affair with Ferrari and Schumacher, answer was clearly Byrne... yet in the rearview mirror I am now willing to have Newey get the edge. For some reason I am surprised every single time I see that Newey ever worked at McLaren.

[Otaku]

The early 2000s unreliability went hand in hand with Newey's radical designs though. MP 4/18 is all I say.

 

Yeah, but do not forget the berillium scandal, which imho went quite unnoticed at the time for having such a huge impact

[ARTGP]

I did not follow F1 before 2006 with detail but I heard from some fellows that this scorecard could have looked even better had Mercedes made McLaren some reliable engines between 2000-2005.

 

Wasn't just engines. Was also hydraulics and gearboxes. Pretty sure Mclaren was building those. Kimi would be a 3 time WDC. 

Edited by ARTGP, 28 June 2021 - 15:23.

[FirstnameLastname]

How much of the car is he designing these days? I thought he was ‘stepping back’ several times now…

[KWSN - DSM]

How much of the car is he designing these days? I thought he was ‘stepping back’ several times now…

 

He stepped back in.

[RogerStone]

Newey is a genius. Period.

[Leibowitz]

188 poles for Newey cars out of 543 races if my fast math is correct. 35% rate. Amazing.

[DeKnyff]

Wasn't just engines. Was also hydraulics and gearboxes. Pretty sure Mclaren was building those. Kimi would be a 3 time WDC.

But then, would the McLarens have been so fast? Reliability and speed are not independent variables.

[absinthedude]

He stepped back in.

 

With his pencil and drawing board too. 

[FullOppositeLock]

Absolute legend of the sport. To think less than a year ago we had some people on the Red Bull car thread on this very board saying Adrian Newey was finished and Red Bull needed to move on to have any hope of ever competing for championships again. After 30+ years he's still at the top of his game, delivering race winning jewels following a design philosophy that others have tried to copy without much success. Can't wait to see what 2022 brings too! Who would bet against another Newey class of the field car at the start of an era of completely new technical regulations?

[r4mses]

I'm pretty sure his influence on those RBR-cars is waaaaaaaaaaaay smaller then on those machines during the 90s. Not saying he's overrated...but... eh, weill, I think today he is. *hides*

[KWSN - DSM]

With his pencil and drawing board too. 

 

I hope so.

[KWSN - DSM]

Newey very likely do not put much of the design on his drawing board using his pencil, sadly the sport even in that area have moved on. However what he do, do is to lay down the concept for the design, and force his whole team to work towards HIS vision, which is why he is still today the true reason for how good the Red Bull cars are.

[PlatenGlass]

Let's not forget he was winning races for two teams in 1997, having designed the Williams but working for McLaren trying to make their car better.

[ARTGP]

I'm pretty sure his influence on those RBR-cars is waaaaaaaaaaaay smaller then on those machines during the 90s. Not saying he's overrated...but... eh, weill, I think today he is. *hides*

 

I think Newey is the reason for extreme rake cars.

Edited by ARTGP, 28 June 2021 - 23:10.

[Anuity]

Not really.
Between 1992-2006
Newey cars won 91 races (from the table above) vs 91 victories for Michael.
And 6 Driver's Championships vs. 7 for Michael.
If anything it's a draw.

Hm, not sure I understand you correctly.
I quoted the sentence about the 90s debate. Not the Red Bull years, when technically Michael was competing, but we all know the story.


from memory that “90s” debate really was talked about around 1997-2002/03.

Either way both Adrian and Michael are great and very special.
But I feel direct comparison between driver and car designer is just for the sake of fun. It’s not really comparable.
Michael did not design his cars, and Newey did not drive his. Not to mention longevity of driver versus designer/engineer.

For me it’s obvious that it’s much more than just one guy, everything within the team has to work together.

If we like to continue direct comparisons, then Adrian seems to have the upper hand in the 90s.
But then he went mostly missing in early 00s except for 2005 Mclaren.

Apparently the combination that Ferrari had was better and much more statistically successful than Mclaren in any given of those years.
Some say that Raikkonen should have won 2003. And while being Kimi fan I don’t agree. But crucially Mclaren was worse than both Ferrari and Williams throughout the year. The fact it was in title chase is likely much more thanks to Kimi.

[Afterburner]

Michael did not design his cars, and Newey did not drive his.

Well, not most of the time…

https://www.youtube....h?v=akrPl59qa0U

[PayasYouRace]

Well, not most of the time…

https://www.youtube....h?v=akrPl59qa0U

Can’t help feeling Horner wanted a go too.

[absinthedude]

I hope so.

 

Confirmed as recently as April 2021....Adrian Newey still has not learned to operate a computer and makes all his designs using pencil and drawing board. He is now the only person at the Red Bull factory to even have a drawing board. 

 

Maybe I'll lend him my Sinclair ZX81.

[statman]

from the Red Bull behind the scenes videos, Newey also wants all his emails printed out so he can read them old school

[taran]

And that is the debate I recall, who is the better of Newey and Byrne... With my complete unbiased love affair with Ferrari and Schumacher, answer was clearly Byrne... yet in the rearview mirror I am now willing to have Newey get the edge. For some reason I am surprised every single time I see that Newey ever worked at McLaren.

 

Congrats to Adrian Newey but let's not forget Rory Byrne indeed.

 

Winner in the 1980s with Benetton.

Winner in the 1990s with Benetton and Ferrari.

Winner in the 2000s with Ferrari.

Winner in the 2010s with Ferrari when he was brought back out of retirement in 2012 as a consultant.

 

That's four decades of race winners...

 

[mclarensmps]

What's annoying is that he's now spent more time at RB than he had at McLaren, and towards the end of the McLaren stint he had already been murmuring about quitting and doing sailboat design   

Good on him though, he's going to go down as the very best in the business. It's been a privilege to see the cars of a living legend in real life.  

[absinthedude]

For clarity, I admire Newey for designing his cars using pencil and paper.

 

though he'd probably be more efficient in other tasks such as email if he learned how to use a computer. In my home the modern PC sits next to the 19th century camera and the 1970s tape deck....all have their place. 

[PlatenGlass]

I wonder how much of the design is down to him these days. I'd be surprised if you could get away with designing a competitive F1 car without a computer.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m pretty sure he knows how to use a computer. He’s got one on his desk for crying out loud.

What I assume he hasn’t bothered with is learning how to use modern CAD software.

[PayasYouRace]

I wonder how much of the design is down to him these days. I'd be surprised if you could get away with designing a competitive F1 car without a computer.

From what I’ve read, he does his drawing on paper and then his drawings are scanned so that they can be used by the various other bits of software that are used in the design process.

Plus, Adrian at his level would only be doing top level concept drawings. All the detail stuff would be done by the design staff.

[DeKnyff]

I wonder how much of the design is down to him these days. I'd be surprised if you could get away with designing a competitive F1 car without a computer.

 

Well, he is the design chief, not a draughtsman himself. He has to give orders to others more than executing things by himself. That said, I really doubt a man of his capabilities is not able to use a computer for technical designs. Maybe he is not the ultimate specialist, but I imagine he can use AutoCAD, even if it was only from seeing his subordinates use it for thirty years.

[Izzyeviel]

The really sad thing is there will never be another Adrian Newey. The last of his kind.