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Cars must work in the rain - Todt


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#1 Rodaknee

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Posted 21 September 2021 - 22:38

 

Formula 1's next generation of cars must be designed to race in the rain to avoid a repeat of the Belgian Grand Prix washout, says FIA president Jean Todt.

 

Not that Todt has any bright ideas to solve the problem.

 

https://www.autospor...s-todt/6671891/

 

 



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#2 w1Y

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 01:07

I remember reading a comment I'm the spa thread about somehow enabling drivers to see through the spray and made me think.

How come drivers visors haven't been adapted to provide the driver with certain information or even a different view.

I imagine a driver who's visor could also convert to some kind of imaging to see through spray would provide a massive advantage.

I always think of the information that military helicopter and fighter pilots have in there helmets these days

Edited by w1Y, 22 September 2021 - 01:09.


#3 red stick

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 01:31

Not that Todt has any bright ideas to solve the problem.

 

https://www.autospor...s-todt/6671891/

He's the Jean-Luc Picard of this starship, to use an Star Trek: The Next Generation analogy, the Boss, the idea man, the big thinker, who comes up with an idea, then turns to Number One and says, "Make it so."  We'll see what Riker comes up with.   :cool:



#4 ARTGP

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 01:42

I remember reading a comment I'm the spa thread about somehow enabling drivers to see through the spray and made me think.

How come drivers visors haven't been adapted to provide the driver with certain information or even a different view.

I imagine a driver who's visor could also convert to some kind of imaging to see through spray would provide a massive advantage.

I always think of the information that military helicopter and fighter pilots have in there helmets these days


I’ve spoken on this before but if find the fact that F1 cars have zero proximity sensors, or blind spot detection of any kind, to be very strange. Drivers being aware of the presence of other cars in all conditions can only make the racing better. It’s not the same as a driver aid like traction control. Drivers not being aware of one another serves no one, and leaving them to rely on their own perceptions “in the name of difficulty” seems a bit pointless.

#5 kumo7

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 02:14

I rather say this is obvious, but the teams are not interested in showing the world that it is possible. Same as Monaco, the viewer's wishes are the complete opposite, I believe. It is more like, just like it and make the car to do it.

The superior machinery should be able to overcome immense difficulties. 



#6 CHIUNDA

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 03:22

2025 before real progress can even be contemplated is just too far!

#7 Baddoer

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 05:38

Where is Ross Brown when we need him most?



#8 CoolBreeze

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 06:25

Get rid of Parc Ferme, and Pirelli.

 

They raced through worse than Spa before. Todt is just issuing general nonsense statements just to stay relevant.



#9 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 06:30

Isn’t it a bit late for Todt to be saying this? The regs have gone out and the cars are being designed already. 



#10 Peat

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 06:48

Get rid of Parc Ferme, and Pirelli.

 

 

 

Not so much that, but at least if the race director declares it a 'wet race' teams should be allowed, compelled even, to make changes to ride height. I don't know how that would be policed without scrutineering though. 

 



#11 Heyli

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 06:55

Not so much that, but at least if the race director declares it a 'wet race' teams should be allowed, compelled even, to make changes to ride height. I don't know how that would be policed without scrutineering though. 

 

Isnt it just sufficient to cancel Parc Ferme in case a race is decleared a wet race? Then teams can do whatever to make their cars work in the rain and nobody has a disadvantage, so you do not really need to police/scrutineer? 



#12 Nemo1965

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:04

Isnt it just sufficient to cancel Parc Ferme in case a race is decleared a wet race? Then teams can do whatever to make their cars work in the rain and nobody has a disadvantage, so you do not really need to police/scrutineer? 

 

I think the problem is very easily solved: declare a wet race and mandate a minimum ride-height.* Why a mandate? Because without that, some teams would take the irresponsible risk not raising the ride-height enough. 

 

* Disclaimer: I have no idea if current F1-cars can be cranked up high enough to ensure the bottom does not make a seal between itself and the water. Disclaimer 2: I know that aquaplaning is also the inability of the tires to transport water. 



#13 Jerem

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:13

... and quickly, because the Sochi weekend is going to be a washout.



#14 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:42

This forum already solved the problem in a thread after Spa. Todt just needs to read that. ("Mud" guards to stop the spray, and proper wet weather tyres that actually work and have a bigger diameter to stop aquaplaning.)

#15 mikeC

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:44

With all his rallying experience, Jean Todt already has the answer: narrower tyres and increased ride height, but that wouldn't suit the image, would it?



#16 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:45

I remember reading a comment I'm the spa thread about somehow enabling drivers to see through the spray and made me think.

How come drivers visors haven't been adapted to provide the driver with certain information or even a different view.

I imagine a driver who's visor could also convert to some kind of imaging to see through spray would provide a massive advantage.

I always think of the information that military helicopter and fighter pilots have in there helmets these days

 

An augmented reality helmet that displayed the track limits and the position of the car in front in the spray would definitely be possible right now. The challenge would be getting a helmet that passed the safety standards with this system integrated. They are getting very small now though. A single colour, small field of view one with a microLED source could be <5cm3  now.



#17 Peat

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 07:50

Static ride height is pretty meaningless now. They all have trick springs and dampers. The Merc at Monza was almost in a nose-up attitude at V-Max. 



#18 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 08:01

Get rid of Parc Ferme, and Pirelli.

They raced through worse than Spa before. Todt is just issuing general nonsense statements just to stay relevant.

Parc ferme and the lack of being able to change setups is one of the biggest issues. Blaming Pirelli for every issue is just silly.

#19 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 08:02

Isn’t it a bit late for Todt to be saying this? The regs have gone out and the cars are being designed already.

For 2025?

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#20 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 08:06

I think the problem is very easily solved: declare a wet race and mandate a minimum ride-height.* Why a mandate? Because without that, some teams would take the irresponsible risk not raising the ride-height enough.

* Disclaimer: I have no idea if current F1-cars can be cranked up high enough to ensure the bottom does not make a seal between itself and the water. Disclaimer 2: I know that aquaplaning is also the inability of the tires to transport water.

I'm not sure the current cars can be adjusted enough. There was no point designing it into the car as the teams would not be able use it when needed because of Parc Ferme.

#21 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 08:43

He's the Jean-Luc Picard of this starship, to use an Star Trek: The Next Generation analogy, the Boss, the idea man, the big thinker, who comes up with an idea, then turns to Number One and says, "Make it so."  We'll see what Riker comes up with.   :cool:

 

Just wait for Wesley to swoop in at the last minute and solve ALL problems... 



#22 RA2

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 09:22

An augmented reality helmet that displayed the track limits and the position of the car in front in the spray would definitely be possible right now. The challenge would be getting a helmet that passed the safety standards with this system integrated. They are getting very small now though. A single colour, small field of view one with a microLED source could be <5cm3  now.

 

 

The display should be easiest.  Data source for for edge of track and sensors to wet patches will be more difficult. Could be done with transparent OLED

 

Other areas that would be difficult as  mentioned will be the aero stalling because of the increased ride heights.



#23 Fastcake

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 09:53

The problem is visibility. I don’t believe there is much issue currently with cars keeping it on the road in conditions we can reasonably expect them to race on. Changing the tyres and ride heights won’t do much for wet weather racing unless it can reduce the amount of spray kicked up.

If you go back to the Belgian Grand Prix, none of the cars were struggling to keep it on the track during the safety car runabout. The drivers simply couldn’t see anything from the cockpit.

#24 TomNokoe

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:04

Cars are too long, heavy, and arguably too wide although this is exacerbated by the comically large tyres, which in turn kick up too much spray and more than cancel out their mechanical benefits with their ridiculous temperature sensitivity.

F1 seems hell-bent on the "bigger is better" mantra, so I very much doubt we will ever return to a time when the cars are inherently more raceable (i.e. the reverse of the traits mentioned in the first paragraph). F1 would basically have to backtrack 5-6 years worth of regulatory changes that supposedly "improved the show", and I highly doubt they will do this. Far too stubborn and set in their ways.

Maybe one day F1 will wake up and realise that we should've never taken the path of 900kg sport limos, but by that time it will be 10-15 years too late, having wasted our time and the vast majority of many a great driver's career.

Edited by TomNokoe, 22 September 2021 - 10:08.


#25 RA2

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:13

The problem is visibility. I don’t believe there is much issue currently with cars keeping it on the road in conditions we can reasonably expect them to race on. Changing the tyres and ride heights won’t do much for wet weather racing unless it can reduce the amount of spray kicked up.

If you go back to the Belgian Grand Prix, none of the cars were struggling to keep it on the track during the safety car runabout. The drivers simply couldn’t see anything from the cockpit.

 

 

Visibility can easily be solved with technology, the lack of grip, traction, cold brakes, aquaplaning, aero stall etc. cannot be sorted out.



#26 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:21

Some drivers need to work in the rain as well.

#27 Ruusperi

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:36

The problem is visibility. I don’t believe there is much issue currently with cars keeping it on the road in conditions we can reasonably expect them to race on. Changing the tyres and ride heights won’t do much for wet weather racing unless it can reduce the amount of spray kicked up.

If you go back to the Belgian Grand Prix, none of the cars were struggling to keep it on the track during the safety car runabout. The drivers simply couldn’t see anything from the cockpit.


They have raced in poor visibility very recently, like at Imola in April...
imola2021.jpg

...Turkey last year...
turkey2020.jpg
 
...and Hockenheim 2019 was run in these conditions.
hockenheim-2019.jpg

#28 absinthedude

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 10:56

Are today's cars actually any more difficult to safely conduct in the rain than cars of the past?



#29 engineblock1

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 11:22

Are today's cars actually any more difficult to safely conduct in the rain than cars of the past?

 

I guess FIA is just very cautious after Jules Bianci accident. IIRC, a lot of fingers were pointed towards Race Direction after that.



#30 Pete_f1

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 11:26

I've seen asphalt that just let's water run straight through so no standing water.

One thing I might have suggested is the ability to derate the power output so the cars have less chance of spinning under power

#31 Pingu Pi

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 11:29

Are today's cars actually any more difficult to safely conduct in the rain than cars of the past?

 

No from any indication through onboard cameras and on the tv. 

 

The F1 circus is very much a representation of the world at large these days.... overreactive and exaggerated. A lack of perspective and holistic thinking because if you look at the past as recent as Imola or Turkey you can see they can race in them conditions. I think drivers saw what happened to Lando and decided that weekend at Spa (where we've seen shunts and a death in recent years) they were going to make a dramatic spectacle of it all.... 

 

Fuji in 2007 or 08 or whatever it was was basically a monsoon and they were going round. 



#32 RA2

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 11:33

No from any indication through onboard cameras and on the tv. 

 

The F1 circus is very much a representation of the world at large these days.... overreactive and exaggerated. A lack of perspective and holistic thinking because if you look at the past as recent as Imola or Turkey you can see they can race in them conditions. I think drivers saw what happened to Lando and decided that weekend at Spa (where we've seen shunts and a death in recent years) they were going to make a dramatic spectacle of it all.... 

 

Fuji in 2007 or 08 or whatever it was was basically a monsoon and they were going round. 

 

I don't think you were at Spa and Imola this year to make the statement, very much a representation of the world at large these days....overreactive and exaggerated



#33 Muppetmad

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 12:18

I guess FIA is just very cautious after Jules Bianci accident. IIRC, a lot of fingers were pointed towards Race Direction after that.

Yes, and rightly so, but there's an easy solution to that: never send out marshals or recovery vehicles in wet conditions without at least a VSC. If the FIA truly thinks Bianchi's death was primarily the product of poor weather, then it really didn't learn the right lessons from that awful day.



#34 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 12:44

Not that Todt has any bright ideas to solve the problem.

https://www.autospor...s-todt/6671891/

Surely he KNOWS that Pirelli is a big part of the problem, right?

Edited by PedroDiCasttro, 22 September 2021 - 12:45.


#35 absinthedude

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 13:09

The thing with Spa is that it's in a forest, and the moisture hangs around in the trees....including the spray spewed up by the tyres. Wet tyres are excellent at getting water off the road and into the air. That is their purpose. Imola and Fuji may or may not have had similar levels of rain but the circuits are in different areas and other factors were different. Plus no doubting Bianchi's accident has left everyone that little bit more cautious.

 

It doesn't seem that the cars no longer work effectively in the rain. So I really don't know what Todt is on about. They work perfectly well in the rain, but just occasionally the rain is so bad over an extended period of time in an area covered in forest that the visibility never becomes sufficient to actually race 20 cars. 



#36 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 15:33

The display should be easiest.  Data source for for edge of track and sensors to wet patches will be more difficult. Could be done with transparent OLED

 

It wouldn't. The display to eye distance would be too close making a coherent focal image distance impossible.

 

It would need to be a holographic HUD or AR display that gives a focal length preferably at or near infinity.

 

Data source for cars and track edge is all easily accessible via GPS. The teams all have this data source already. It's accuracy however is another question.

 

The challenge then is spatially and accurately portraying this information in the drivers field of view in all lit conditions, at all helmet positions etc. The spatial contextual and tracking information required is far more complex than the display hardware.

 

Trust me  :cat:


Edited by Tenmantaylor, 22 September 2021 - 15:35.


#37 d246

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:02

The thing with Spa is that it's in a forest, and the moisture hangs around in the trees....including the spray spewed up by the tyres. Wet tyres are excellent at getting water off the road and into the air. That is their purpose. Imola and Fuji may or may not have had similar levels of rain but the circuits are in different areas and other factors were different. Plus no doubting Bianchi's accident has left everyone that little bit more cautious.

 

It doesn't seem that the cars no longer work effectively in the rain. So I really don't know what Todt is on about. They work perfectly well in the rain, but just occasionally the rain is so bad over an extended period of time in an area covered in forest that the visibility never becomes sufficient to actually race 20 cars. 

It's always been the case. Hockenheim, through the trees, was always really bad for visibility even after the rain stopped. I remember James Hunt mentioning it. Whereas, at Silverstone with the wind blowing across the track, even when still raining, wasn't too much of an issue.



#38 Rodaknee

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:19

An augmented reality helmet that displayed the track limits and the position of the car in front in the spray would definitely be possible right now. The challenge would be getting a helmet that passed the safety standards with this system integrated. They are getting very small now though. A single colour, small field of view one with a microLED source could be <5cm3  now.

Teams can't get a drink bottle to work, how are they going to ensure some space age nonsense will work in the rain ?



#39 Rodaknee

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:21

I've seen asphalt that just let's water run straight through so no standing water.
 

.Until the gaps in the asphalt are filled with dirt.  Then it's back to square one.



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#40 Britmax

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:38

Not that Todt has any bright ideas to solve the problem.

 

https://www.autospor...s-todt/6671891/

F1 cars do cope with the rain, the conditions at Spa were exceptional. Todt is saying this to be seen to say something, in which context, bearing in mind that everyone here knows (or ought to) why Lauda withdrew from that race, I find the comments dragging him into this crass and unnecessary.



#41 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:40

Surely he KNOWS that Pirelli is a big part of the problem, right?

What part did Pirelli play in the one race that was as near as damn it cancelled? Continually blaming Pirelli is simply not looking at the whole picture.

#42 Pete_f1

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:46

.Until the gaps in the asphalt are filled with dirt. Then it's back to square one.


Vacuum it then.

#43 ARTGP

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 16:53

The problem is visibility. I don’t believe there is much issue currently with cars keeping it on the road in conditions we can reasonably expect them to race on. Changing the tyres and ride heights won’t do much for wet weather racing unless it can reduce the amount of spray kicked up.

If you go back to the Belgian Grand Prix, none of the cars were struggling to keep it on the track during the safety car runabout. The drivers simply couldn’t see anything from the cockpit.

 

and we have all sorts of real world road-ready technological advancements that can augment human perception and sight inside the cockput. Why do the supposed most technologically advanced cars in the world, have less technology than a minivan when it comes to detection of other objects surrounding your vehicle?  This is about F1 choosing to stay blind, not an actual technological limitation (I'm not saying you said that, just speaking generally on the topic).


Edited by ARTGP, 22 September 2021 - 16:54.


#44 pdac

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 17:10

Just build a roof over the track.



#45 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 17:51

and we have all sorts of real world road-ready technological advancements that can augment human perception and sight inside the cockput. Why do the supposed most technologically advanced cars in the world, have less technology than a minivan when it comes to detection of other objects surrounding your vehicle? This is about F1 choosing to stay blind, not an actual technological limitation (I'm not saying you said that, just speaking generally on the topic).


In all honesty if the drivers require that sort of technology to be able to race, then it's patently not safe to be on track.

#46 Pingu Pi

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 18:06

I don't think you were at Spa and Imola this year to make the statement, very much a representation of the world at large these days....overreactive and exaggerated

 

The original question was "are today's cars worse..." Hence my opening line from onboards and tv cameras.

 

Me being at the track has nothing to do with making that statement from a personal perspective on behaviour... Just look at the hyperbolic statements race on race from TPs and drivers regarding any incident or event. 



#47 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 18:23

https://youtu.be/2wm4H65EDbE

Problem has already been solved

#48 Fastcake

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 19:35

and we have all sorts of real world road-ready technological advancements that can augment human perception and sight inside the cockput. Why do the supposed most technologically advanced cars in the world, have less technology than a minivan when it comes to detection of other objects surrounding your vehicle?  This is about F1 choosing to stay blind, not an actual technological limitation (I'm not saying you said that, just speaking generally on the topic).

No we don't. Nothing reliable that exists now, and isn't some AR-like fantasy technology.



#49 chhatra

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 19:52

Over reaction.

Been watching F1 since 2002 and only a handful of races(only 2 in my memory) have been cancelled before half distance.

The only thing they should do is negotiate a better contingency plans with the tracks i.e run the race later on or reimburse a portion of the fans tickets.

#50 ARTGP

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 20:17

In all honesty if the drivers require that sort of technology to be able to race, then it's patently not safe to be on track.

 

Drivers regularly stumble over one another during free practice and say they didn't see one another on a clear day. This conversation doesn't even have to be about rain.

 

As for rain, as long as there is awareness of the other objects on the track, I don't see what isn't safe.  You'd be amazed at how blind people survive then. Obviously blind people don't have to drive an F1 car at 300km/h, but when you've got two eyes, and a simple vehicle detection system, you are going to get around the track quite safely so long as the tires can manage the water on the surface of the track.


Edited by ARTGP, 22 September 2021 - 20:22.