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F1 set to trial system of deleting double yellow flag lap times


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#1 SophieB

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 09:32

A test could be undertaken as soon as the United States GP in Austin in a fortnight's time.

At the moment drivers are expected to slow and not record a meaningful lap time when they pass double yellows.

That can occasionally lead to controversy, as happened with Fernando Alonso in qualifying at the Turkish GP.

The Spaniard entered a double yellow zone at the start of his first flying lap in Q1 and, having completed the lap at a competitive pace that was comparable with others running at the time, he was reported to the stewards.

He escaped sanction essentially after the stewards noted that his next flying lap was over three seconds faster.

However, some rivals who abandoned laps due to yellows insisted that Alonso had set a meaningful lap time, especially in the context of the threat of rain meaning that the first lap could have been important.

The stewards did consider that, but discounted it because the session remained dry and lap times improved.

 

https://www.autospor...-times/6684979/



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 09:37

Finally  :up:



#3 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 09:59

That's fine for qualifying, but does nothing to improve safety in the race.

#4 Ruusperi

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 11:34

Only for double yellows? When a driver runs wide, does it bring single or double yellows? What I'm thinking is that in wet conditions there are so many occasions drivers run wide or have small moments outside the track, especially in Q1, that I could see top drivers getting knocked out from Q1 just because all their runs were interrupted by yellows. And then if it's too wet in the race and the whole thing gets cancelled like Spa, those unlucky drivers won't get any points if half points are given for the qualifying results.



#5 noikeee

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 11:34

That's fine for qualifying, but does nothing to improve safety in the race.

We should never see double yellows in a race anymore, any double yellows situation would be suitable to a VSC.



#6 ANF

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 11:44

Only for double yellows? When a driver runs wide, does it bring single or double yellows?

Single, propably.

From the ISC appendix H:

Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. It must be evident that a driver has reduced speed; this means a driver is expected to have braked earlier and/or noticeably reduced speed in that sector.

Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or marshals working on or beside the track. During free practice and qualifying, it must be evident that a driver has not attempted to set a meaningful lap time; this means the driver should abandon the lap (this does not mean he has to pit as the track could well be clear the following lap).



#7 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 12:45

I don't know why the don't just have a fixed speed (like in the pit lane). I'm sure they can figure out what speed the car was travelling at through the double-yellow section to a reasonable level of accuracy. If the speed limit is sensible (low), then the drivers will know there's no sensible reason not to slow.



#8 F1matt

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 13:27

Once again the sport proving that it can't control the drivers and making unnecessary changes. 



#9 Chmielinski

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 13:32

Once again the sport proving that it can't control the drivers and making unnecessary changes. 

 

Give me an example of a sport where competitors are not exploiting every grey area that's available to them.



#10 Afterburner

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 14:03

I don't see it mentioned anywhere in Masi's quotes, but I hope this only applies to drivers who have actually passed through a double yellow zone and not also those who had passed the incident once double yellows were waved.

I also don't understand why they don't delete the fastest lap of the driver who caused the yellows...

#11 Atreiu

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 14:15

What's the difference between single and double yellows?



#12 Ivanhoe

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 14:17

What's the difference between single and double yellows?

 

 

Single, propably.

From the ISC appendix H:

Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. It must be evident that a driver has reduced speed; this means a driver is expected to have braked earlier and/or noticeably reduced speed in that sector.

Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or marshals working on or beside the track. During free practice and qualifying, it must be evident that a driver has not attempted to set a meaningful lap time; this means the driver should abandon the lap (this does not mean he has to pit as the track could well be clear the following lap).



#13 ARTGP

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 16:14

Possible unintended consequence will be that it will put the spotlight on the ambiguity of calling a single or a double yellow. 


Edited by ARTGP, 11 October 2021 - 16:15.


#14 Atreiu

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 16:50

 

 

Thanks. Somehow I missed it.



#15 Sterzo

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 19:13

Possible unintended consequence will be that it will put the spotlight on the ambiguity of calling a single or a double yellow. 

...and good fun if (as I've seen in national racing) one marshal waves a yellow and a second joins in a couple of seconds later. I've always thought the "be prepared to stop" rule a joke - as does every racing driver who has ever driven past a double yellow.



#16 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 23:50

Give me an example of a sport where competitors are not exploiting every grey area that's available to them.

 

It's not a grey area, though, is it?



#17 ExFlagMan

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 09:41

We should never see double yellows in a race anymore, any double yellows situation would be suitable to a VSC.

 

Before you can do that they need to get the drivers to respond appropriately to the yellow flags - no more allowing the 'Kimi finger' as an adequate response to a single yellow.



#18 Bleu

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 13:41

We should never see double yellows in a race anymore, any double yellows situation would be suitable to a VSC.

 

I think driver spinning and ending wrong way around on the track is double yellow situation - which will be cleared when driver re-joins the race. 

 

As far as I see the incident which was investigated was when Alonso went past Verstappen during the 360-degree spin of the latter. 



#19 noikeee

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 17:57

It's not a grey area, though, is it?


"Reduce speed significantly", it can't be any greyer. How much is significantly?

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#20 Maustinsj

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 19:44

More than slightly and less than stop.

#21 pdac

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 22:54

"Reduce speed significantly", it can't be any greyer. How much is significantly?

 

Sorry, what I meant was it should not be a grey area. The rule should explicitly state the actual speed and there should be a small percentage margin for any error in determining the actual speed of any particular car. And the penalty (like penalties for all safety-related rules) should be of the harshest order (not just deleting times).



#22 prty

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 05:27

For context:

Punishment due to his declarations from a couple of days ago? :lol:
 
Edit: if it is about the 13:25 moment in this video, Alonso wasn't even close, and arrived into T1 when the yellows were gone already:
 

 
If he gets punished for that, it's getting close to a mafia, positions taken away for saying the wrong things.



#23 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 09:01

For context:

There's a light panel and a marshal post before the cars arrive at the corner:

istanbul-t1.jpg



#24 ExFlagMan

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 09:21

There's a light panel and a marshal post before the cars arrive at the corner:

istanbul-t1.jpg

 

And there lies the rub - is there any coordination between what is shown on the light panel and what the flag marshals are displaying, and if the light panel is not located at the same point as a flag point then which one takes precedent.



#25 george1981

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 09:33

And there lies the rub - is there any coordination between what is shown on the light panel and what the flag marshals are displaying, and if the light panel is not located at the same point as a flag point then which one takes precedent.

 

 

I thought I'd seen it written that the marshall's flags take priority. The light panels are just to supplement the marshall's flags. I think this came up at Brazil 2012 when Vettel was accused of overtaking under a yellow flag. My recollection had been that he had just passed a green marshal flag but then the next light panel was still yellow. But the flag took priority. However when I've gone back and read some articles it isn't that clear. 



#26 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 09:36

And there lies the rub - is there any coordination between what is shown on the light panel and what the flag marshals are displaying, and if the light panel is not located at the same point as a flag point then which one takes precedent.

From every Race Director's event notes:
"The FIA track light panels have been installed in the positions shown on the circuit map. In accordance with Appendix H to the ISC the light signals have the same meaning as flag signals."

So if marshal post 4 is showing yellow flags, and marshal post 5 is showing a green flag, and marshal post 4 have activated light panel 2, then I believe there should be yellow flags from light panel 2 to marshal post 5. Also electronically, on the steering wheel, until the light panel is deactivated.



#27 ExFlagMan

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 10:05

There's a light panel and a marshal post before the cars arrive at the corner:

istanbul-t1.jpg

 

 

From every Race Director's event notes:
"The FIA track light panels have been installed in the positions shown on the circuit map. In accordance with Appendix H to the ISC the light signals have the same meaning as flag signals."

So if marshal post 4 is showing yellow flags, and marshal post 5 is showing a green flag, and marshal post 4 have activated light panel 2, then I believe there should be yellow flags from light panel 2 to marshal post 5. Also electronically, on the steering wheel, until the light panel is deactivated.

 

I would assume that the relevant flag point for a yellow flag at the entrance to the corner would be at 3 not 4.  There might be a yellow flag point at 4 but it would just be a repeater for that at 3 to warn drivers exiting the pits that they are entering a yellow flag zone.

 

Another question - where is the next light panel that would be displaying a green - is it before, at or after post 5.

 

The other question to be asked it 'who has control of the light panels' - is it RC or the flag marshals on post, or, as I believe happened at some GPs last year, someone from the light panel supplier company stationed at some other location.

 

And people on here wonder why there is confusion - I am not sure it would be possible to design  a system with so many potential POFs.