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2026 engine silly-season


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 11:13

It could be very interesting regarding which team could use what engine with the new engine formula 2026 onwards.

 

Let's have a look at the options:

On the table are Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault. Honda, Red Bull, Porsche and Audi

 

I think Red Bull will stay with Honda

And I could imagine Renault will withdraw from Formula 1

 

So big questions would be: where will Audi and Porsche land? I think they will both enter Formula 1.

 

Perhaps Audi with Sauber as Andretti and Audi could also tie up at LMDh and Audi developped the LMP1 car at Sauber some years ago.

 

Porsche could go to McLaren (Andreas Seidl) or Williams (Jost Capito).



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#2 juicy sushi

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 11:34

If VAG actually do show up, it will only be with one brand.

#3 pacificquay

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 11:39

And the whole discussion is that VAG will partner with Red Bull power trains, so there won’t be a Honda option either.



#4 Risil

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 11:40

I heard some speculation that they could badge the same engine as a Porsche with one team and an Audi with another. Renault attempted to do that in 2013 with the Red Bulls carrying big Infiniti stickers on the sidepods but I don't know if that counts as entering F1 with more than one brand. What does it mean anyway? For the viewers at home probably all we care about is whether the engine makes the car fast and slow, and possibly what it says next to the constructor name on the timing graphics.

 

I think we get four manufacturers. That's probably all F1 wants or needs anyway. Grand Prix racing peaked(?) at 7 in 2004 and that was probably too many to be manageable, let alone sustainable.



#5 Risil

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 11:42

And the whole discussion is that VAG will partner with Red Bull power trains, so there won’t be a Honda option either.

 

IIRC Helmut Marko used to do young driver spotting for Audi way back, and Red Bull have already taken much of Honda's F1 programme off Tokyo's hands and therefore have a successful operation ready to go, so that would make most sense.



#6 HistoryFan

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:04

If VAG actually do show up, it will only be with one brand.

 

I don't think so. Of course it was a bad idea to compete against each other in LMP1 some years ago. But they both did again in Formula E. For LMDh they will join forces with the same chassis partner and the same engine. The same could be in Formula 1 - same engine, different teams.



#7 HistoryFan

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:05

And the whole discussion is that VAG will partner with Red Bull power trains, so there won’t be a Honda option either.

 

It seems Honda is not really happy to withdraw from Formula 1. Honda is again on the table for the new engine rules and it seems, Honda will support Red Bull still in 2022 onwards. So I could imagine, they will stay together in 2026 as well.

 



#8 Claudius

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:06

I believe VAG in F1 when I see it.

Until then, just rumours as in previous years.



#9 HistoryFan

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:09

it's more than  rumours as they are part of the group to discuss the new engine rules.

 

No Toyota, no BMW or any other manufacture than I described in the first post. So if we see new manufactures in F1, then it will be Porsche or Audi or both.



#10 Claudius

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:15

Weren't VAG involved in similar groups in the past? And then decided not to participate.



#11 Rinehart

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:15

I believe VAG in F1 when I see it.

Until then, just rumours as in previous years.

Rumour is Mercedes and Ferrari Renault will only commit to new rules that VAG like IF VAG commit. So there is a LOT of pressure on Liberty to make it happen now. 

 

Edited.


Edited by Rinehart, 12 October 2021 - 12:16.


#12 Claudius

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:16

Rumour is Mercedes and Ferrari Renault will only commit to new rules that VAG like IF VAG commit. So there is a LOT of pressure on Liberty to make it happen now. 

 

Edited.

 

Sounds plausible  :up:



#13 JG

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:30

We also need BMW, Toyota, Ford and Chevrolet on board please. 



#14 Tufty

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:37

We also need BMW, Toyota, Ford and Chevrolet on board please. 

Three of those were stung badly 10-20 years ago, And Chevrolet doesn't have much of a presence outside the USA that I've seen.



#15 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 12:42

I heard some speculation that they could badge the same engine as a Porsche with one team and an Audi with another. Renault attempted to do that in 2013 with the Red Bulls carrying big Infiniti stickers on the sidepods but I don't know if that counts as entering F1 with more than one brand. What does it mean anyway? For the viewers at home probably all we care about is whether the engine makes the car fast and slow, and possibly what it says next to the constructor name on the timing graphics.

 

I think we get four manufacturers. That's probably all F1 wants or needs anyway. Grand Prix racing peaked(?) at 7 in 2004 and that was probably too many to be manageable, let alone sustainable.

 

And RB got stung on the boards because they didn't mention Renault anymore in 2013  :rotfl:

 

Three of those were stung badly 10-20 years ago, And Chevrolet doesn't have much of a presence outside the USA that I've seen.

 

Most Chevy presence was canned a couple of years ago. Most of them were rebadged Daewoo's anyway/



#16 Clatter

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 13:15

It could be very interesting regarding which team could use what engine with the new engine formula 2026 onwards.

Let's have a look at the options:
On the table are Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault. Honda, Red Bull, Porsche and Audi

I think Red Bull will stay with Honda
And I could imagine Renault will withdraw from Formula 1

So big questions would be: where will Audi and Porsche land? I think they will both enter Formula 1.

Perhaps Audi with Sauber as Andretti and Audi could also tie up at LMDh and Audi developped the LMP1 car at Sauber some years ago.

Porsche could go to McLaren (Andreas Seidl) or Williams (Jost Capito).

Porsche and Audi are not on the table. AFAIC they are vapourware. And Honda are leaving, with no indication that they will return in 2026.

Edited by Clatter, 12 October 2021 - 13:16.


#17 juicy sushi

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Posted 12 October 2021 - 13:26

I don't think so. Of course it was a bad idea to compete against each other in LMP1 some years ago. But they both did again in Formula E. For LMDh they will join forces with the same chassis partner and the same engine. The same could be in Formula 1 - same engine, different teams.

They did for a brief period in Formula E, then consolidated on one brand. LMDh is a minimal cost concept using mildly different bodywork on identical mechanical parts.

I still see no case for multiple brands. The internal fight over who got which team isn’t worth it.

#18 HistoryFan

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 06:40

Weren't VAG involved in similar groups in the past? And then decided not to participate.

 

Only for the 2014 engine rules.

 



#19 HistoryFan

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 06:40

Rumour is Mercedes and Ferrari Renault will only commit to new rules that VAG like IF VAG commit. So there is a LOT of pressure on Liberty to make it happen now. 

 

Edited.

 

So if VW isn't joining Formula 1 we will only have Ferrari and Red Bull/Honda? Don't think that will happen...

 



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#20 HistoryFan

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 06:41

Porsche and Audi are not on the table. AFAIC they are vapourware. And Honda are leaving, with no indication that they will return in 2026.

 

Honda was joining the table for 2026 again some weeks ago. So there is an indication.

 



#21 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 07:57

Honda was joining the table for 2026 again some weeks ago. So there is an indication.


Joining what table? If you mean the engine rules discussion then that means nothing.
https://www.google.c...ct/6682970/amp/

#22 Ben1445

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 08:08

I kind of think there’s a sense of ‘it’s now or never’ from VW on this one. The technology and the timing of these regs is about right for what VW plan to do with their road products and there’s no guarantee that, come the early 2030s, F1’s eventual plans to replace the 2026 regs will be as appealing and/or useful to them.

But then that is more than a healthy dose of speculation on my part.

#23 lustigson

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Posted 13 October 2021 - 10:33

Joe Saward's latest Green Notebook post has some interesting thoughts on this topic.

 

My view:

 

AlphaTauriRed Bull Powertrains, maybe badged

AlpineRenault (factory team)

Aston MartinMercedes (car brand is part-Mercedes-owned, anyway)

FerrariFerrari (factory team)

Haas — Ferrari (close alliance)

McLaren — candidate for Porsche/Audi (according to Saward), otherwise Mercedes

Mercedes — Mercedes (factory team)

Red Bull — Red Bull Powertrains, maybe badged (factory team)

Sauber / Andretti — candidate for Porsche/Audi, maybe Renault, but likely to stick with Ferrari

Williams — candidate for Porsche/Audi (according to Saward), maybe for Renault, otherwise sticks with Mercedes

11th team — Renault (according to Saward, although I'll believe it when I see it)


Edited by lustigson, 13 October 2021 - 10:37.


#24 HistoryFan

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 07:56

According to Auto Motor und Sport there is a 4th new manufacture interested in Formula 1 (alongside Porsche, Audi, Honda), perhaps from the United States.

 

Now it looks like Porsche & Red Bull

Audi & Sauber or Williams



#25 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 09:15

Didn't you know we had Ford and GM board members here on the AS forums? They seem to know about the inner workings of these 2 companies. 'They' say neither company has interest in F1. I think they're talking out of their ass.

#26 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 06:39

https://www.motorspo...-2026/10336982/

Looks like Honda are returning without departing

#27 Beri

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 07:52

https://www.motorspo...-2026/10336982/

Looks like Honda are returning without departing

 

Somehow it feels like "Well, thats not news.."



#28 BRG

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 09:43

Didn't you know we had Ford and GM board members here on the AS forums? They seem to know about the inner workings of these 2 companies. 'They' say neither company has interest in F1. I think they're talking out of their ass.

GM has not had anything to do with F1 throughout its 72 years of history.  Nor very much in Grand Prix racing before that.  So, speaking out of my ass,  I would say it it is blindingly obvious that they simply aren't interested now.  Unless you are on the Board of GM and know more about it than the rest of us?

 

And Ford are cheapskates and won't want to invest the many millions needed. 



#29 macjim

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 10:01

https://www.motorspo...-2026/10336982/

Looks like Honda are returning without departing

 

It's 2008 all over again for Honda, in out, shake it all about, do the hokey cokey, and................

 

This has always been my issue with the current engine rules, they're too complex for a Hart, Cosworth, et all to create for the independent teams.

 

They need to rely on the vagaries of manufactures boards if they'll have an engine next year.



#30 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 15:00

Just because you keep saying it BRG, doesn't make it true.
YOU don't know anymore than the rest of us.

#31 FLB

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 15:07

Almost sounds like seller's remorse.



#32 Deeq

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 15:26

My Honda F1 involvement theory...depends level of Excitement.
Too lite E (not winning the Odd race etc) for several seasons they quit.
Too much E, Winning the Title(s) they quit.
So its much better if they win an average of 2-3 races a year and never a title..they will be just excited enough to stay!
Why come back shortly efter quiting... again they are motorsport junkies and need that fix erm Excitement! hence immediately begin the planning of their return.😁

Well its only a theori erm hypothesis..🙃

Edited by Deeq, 12 July 2022 - 15:27.


#33 BRG

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 15:28

Just because you keep saying it BRG, doesn't make it true.
YOU don't know anymore than the rest of us.

Right back at you. 

 

My opinion, based on many years of history of the sport, is that GM have no more interest now than they had in 1953 or 1977.  If you know otherwise, as you seem to imply, then let us all into the secret.

 

As for Ford, yes they have dabbled a bit but apart from underwriting the DFV, their only serious effort was Jaguar from 2000-2004.  They won't even fund M-Sport properly in the WRC despite them using a Ford car.  So the chance that Ford will build an F1 engine is remoter than Tristan da Cunha.  Ford have no capacity to do it themselves and  - based on their previous behaviours - little enthusiasm to spend money getting someone else to do the work for them.

 

And you can take all that to the bank.


Edited by BRG, 12 July 2022 - 15:28.


#34 MattK9

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Posted 12 July 2022 - 15:38

 

 

And I could imagine Renault will withdraw from Formula 1

 

 

 

I dont think Renault will leave, but if they did who would they sell Team Enstone to? Maybe the VAG.

 

Personally I hope they stay and are able to supply a second team too.



#35 YamahaV10

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 05:48

I heard some speculation that they could badge the same engine as a Porsche with one team and an Audi with another. Renault attempted to do that in 2013 with the Red Bulls carrying big Infiniti stickers on the sidepods but I don't know if that counts as entering F1 with more than one brand. What does it mean anyway? For the viewers at home probably all we care about is whether the engine makes the car fast and slow, and possibly what it says next to the constructor name on the timing graphics.

I think we get four manufacturers. That's probably all F1 wants or needs anyway. Grand Prix racing peaked(?) at 7 in 2004 and that was probably too many to be manageable, let alone sustainable.


The hybrid power units made F1 far less sustainable financially.

#36 pdac

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 07:46

The hybrid power units made F1 far less sustainable financially.

 

Difficult to say that. They do cost more, but they are the reason why the manufacturers are there. Perhaps, if they were not introduced, F1 might not have grown as much as it has and there would not be as much income as a result (meaning less money for the teams). We just can't tell.



#37 loki

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 08:01

Right back at you. 

 

My opinion, based on many years of history of the sport, is that GM have no more interest now than they had in 1953 or 1977.  If you know otherwise, as you seem to imply, then let us all into the secret.

 

As for Ford, yes they have dabbled a bit but apart from underwriting the DFV, their only serious effort was Jaguar from 2000-2004.  They won't even fund M-Sport properly in the WRC despite them using a Ford car.  So the chance that Ford will build an F1 engine is remoter than Tristan da Cunha.  Ford have no capacity to do it themselves and  - based on their previous behaviours - little enthusiasm to spend money getting someone else to do the work for them.

 

And you can take all that to the bank.

 

I agree Ford isn’t interested but they do have manufacturing capability in Roush-Yates.  They’d need an F1 centered design staff but the current operation could crank out the 30-40 power plants needed a year.  Ain’t gonna happen though.



#38 BRG

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 08:15

I agree Ford isn’t interested but they do have manufacturing capability in Roush-Yates.  They’d need an F1 centered design staff but the current operation could crank out the 30-40 power plants needed a year.  Ain’t gonna happen though.

Aren't Roush-Yates just a tuning shop though?  Have they ever designed and built a bespoke racing power unit from scratch?  I don't believe so.  Ford used to use Cosworth, who could do that, but I think that avenue is now closed to Ford.  In fact, are there ANY independent engine builders who could do the job anymore?