Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 11 votes

What if Mercedes wins the championship on a grey rule ?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
727 replies to this topic

#1 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 742 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:08

Red Bull are just as sure that something is amiss about the pace of the Mercedes as they were about Ferrari's pace in 2019 (we know how that turned out) Arguably they are more sure about the Mercedes now than they were about the Ferrari back then.

 

On the Mercedes pace in Brazil Christian Horner said the following:

 

"Obviously it is something, it is something that is enabling the car to do that kind of speed, you know that umm, something must happen. Physics wouldn't allow the kind of horsepower delta that you would need to achieve that."

 

"Hamilton was 27 km/h faster than Lando when he passed him, which is another formula"

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=ypKyLBtisjQ

 

After Lewis overtook Max, he increased the gap by 9s over the next 12 laps. That's an average of over 7 tenths per lap. Mark Hughes wrote a piece which was quoted in the build up thread where Merc had increased the gap not just between them and RB but also to the other teams by double the seasonal average. Some of the overtakes yesterday made it look like other cars were standing still, including on cars which had DRS themselves!

 

The point is, Mercedes has done something big to the car. This isn't just a small tweak. It is something on the level of DAS or Ferrari's fuel meter.  Some grey rule that they are exploiting. And something that could very well be banned if its found out on. Now the problem here is, they have introduced this at the very end of the season in a tight points race.

 

What if the innovation they did is a deemed a violation of the rules by the FIA ? After Hamilton wins the next 2 races and all but seals the championship ?  This could turn into a nasty legal battle. The previous grey rules that Mercedes and Ferrari got themselves into, had no baring on the championship. So it didn't really matter. But this is totally different.

 

If Ferrari took the lead in the championship with 3 races to go, and the pace was all the result of the  ̶i̶l̶l̶e̶g̶a̶l̶ ̶  questionable fuel flow meter , do they get to keep it ? We see how fast they are without it. That would be a stolen championship.

 

I guess we will find out. Interesting times ahead.


Edited by YamahaV10, 15 November 2021 - 04:08.


Advertisement

#2 Carrinthe

Carrinthe
  • Member

  • 161 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:14

I am very interested what is happening with Lewis his stearing wheel, another DAS system or does he control something else by bringing the wheel closer to him? https://streamja.com/zPZAM

 


Edited by Carrinthe, 15 November 2021 - 04:15.


#3 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 742 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:23

I am very interested what is happening with Lewis his stearing wheel, another DAS system or does he control something else by bringing the wheel closer to him? https://streamja.com/zPZAM

Yeah I seen that. DAS 2.0 ?  Then there is the rear suspension sinkage on the straights. But even these things wouldn't account for the sheer pace that they had in Brazil. 

 


Edited by YamahaV10, 15 November 2021 - 04:25.


#4 Kershy

Kershy
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: May 16

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:23

I thought it had been explained by a new ICE designed to last only 4 races where the engineers had been able to increase the hp from new engine mapping.

#5 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 742 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:37

Ironically it was actually in Brazil where Ferrari-gate kicked off.

 

Ferrari's rivals in Brazil held fire on lodging an official protest against the Maranello team's engine. https://www.grandpri...ari-engine.html



#6 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 21,572 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:42

For what it's worth, I believe the F.I.A have already taken a very thorough look at the Mercedes PU, are all that talk of plenum cooling etc.



#7 GTR

GTR
  • Member

  • 531 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 15 November 2021 - 04:47

Pathetic and sour grapes much, OP? Also, chill out because RBR will get the WDC at the very least. IMO there is little need for this imaginary questioning of regulations compliance, especially when your driver didn't drive very fair yesterday and got away with it.



#8 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:03

Pathetic and sour grapes much, OP? Also, chill out because RBR will get the WDC at the very least. IMO there is little need for this imaginary questioning of regulations compliance, especially when your driver didn't drive very fair yesterday and got away with it.

 

Pretty much. The thread title mentions a "grey rule" but the OP doesn't tell us which rule they're faffing on about or in what way the rule is being messed about with. It's obvious this is just another bating thread. 



#9 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 2,043 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:18

I am very interested what is happening with Lewis his stearing wheel, another DAS system or does he control something else by bringing the wheel closer to him? https://streamja.com/zPZAM

 

When is that movement happening? As in where on the track?



#10 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 742 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:18

Pretty much. The thread title mentions a "grey rule" but the OP doesn't tell us which rule they're faffing on about or in what way the rule is being messed about with. It's obvious this is just another bating thread. 

Just the little fact that Red Bull questioned the pace of the Ferrari in 2019 and were proven to be 100% right.   They didn't really question it actually. They knew something was wrong. And now they are saying the same about the Mercedes. Red Bull and the other teams know what is possible and what isn't. They are in the same series with the same rules and realities. 


Edited by YamahaV10, 15 November 2021 - 05:21.


#11 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 2,043 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:27

https://www.youtube....h?v=TiTdrHl60Io

 

Looking at his pole lap, the wheel moves back at the end of the straights...wouldnt that be as the rear of the car rises up?



#12 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:32

Just the little fact that Red Bull questioned the pace of the Ferrari in 2019 and were proven to be 100% right.   They didn't really question it actually. They knew something was wrong. And now they are saying the same about the Mercedes. Red Bull and the other teams know what is possible and what isn't. They are in the same series with the same rules and realities. 

 

Great. Now tell us which rule Mercedes are possibly breaking and how. Because if you can't, then this thread is nothing but bate and sour grapes. At least back in 2018/2019 we could have a discussion on what Ferrari were possibly doing; given the nature of Ferrari's PU performance, many people on here were able to theorise that they were doing something with battery and perhaps delivering more power per lap than was allowed.

 

All you have are rumours and innuendo. Christ....that's being generous. You don't even have that. 



#13 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 6,074 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:35

This thread needs more grey matter than grey rules 



#14 Arska

Arska
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:38

What if team X wins the championship on a grey rule?



#15 renzmann

renzmann
  • Member

  • 3,300 posts
  • Joined: February 19

Posted 15 November 2021 - 05:50

I think this is an important thread, because what we've seen the W12 do this weekend is baffling, and indeed it's as baffling as Ferrari in 2019. Also, whatever Mercedes are doing is having a huge impact on the championship. Without the their straight line max speed, Verstappen probably would have won yesterday.

 

I disagree with the title, though, because I believe in innocence until proven in sports. For all I know, there's not a single reason to believe Merc are doing something illegal, or "grey" for that matter.

 

The way they use their PUs certainly is against the spirit of the (sustainability) rules. Honda built a PU that has to last at least 7 races, and ever since PU3, Mercedes most certainly haven't. That's cynic, but not illegal. Add to that the rear suspension that they have been able to get working this season and mildly flexible wings, and you can account for a lot of the extreme max speed they have. I'm sure we've missed something else, though.


Edited by renzmann, 15 November 2021 - 05:51.


#16 geralt

geralt
  • Member

  • 1,199 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:08

How ironic is it that the rules which allow them to change engine components with a small grid penalty were implemented for the benefit of Honda?

#17 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 742 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:30

What if team X wins the championship on a grey rule?

Only one team is blowing past top 5 cars going 30 Km/h faster and has doubled their pace against their seasonal average. In one weekend.



#18 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 3,869 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:40

People really are getting ahead of themselves aren't they. It's one race and there is no evidence of anything funny going on, if there were even a hint that there might be something then the teams would protest immediately at this point of the season. You think RBR would allow Lewis a win at this point if there was even a sniff of illegality in his car? Come on people we are better than this around here, aren't we?

#19 OneAndOnly

OneAndOnly
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:43

People really are getting ahead of themselves aren't they. It's one race and there is no evidence of anything funny going on, if there were even a hint that there might be something then the teams would protest immediately at this point of the season. You think RBR would allow Lewis a win at this point if there was even a sniff of illegality in his car? Come on people we are better than this around here, aren't we?

Protest what exactly?

Advertisement

#20 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 3,869 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:46

Protest what exactly?

Preciseley my point. There is no evidence of anything to protest or suggest they have an illegal car or are exploiting a 'grey area' yet some here have already decided they must be.

Edited by alframsey, 15 November 2021 - 06:48.


#21 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 2,043 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:48

Protest what exactly?

 

Well, RB were gearing up for a protest before the illegal DRS thing showed up. Something tells me they are probably going to go after that this week, potentially.



#22 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:54

Only one team is blowing past top 5 cars going 30 Km/h faster and has doubled their pace against their seasonal average. In one weekend.

 

Which team is that exactly? The last time I checked, looking at the speed trap data.none of the cars were going 30km/h faster than the others.

 

Bad enough you made a bogus thread, but now you're just making stuff up. Very sad. 



#23 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 6,074 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:55

Which team is that exactly? The last time I checked, looking at the speed trap data.none of the cars were going 30km/h faster than the others.

 

Bad enough you made a bogus thread, but now you're just making stuff up. Very sad. 

 

The straws, they must be clutched. 



#24 OneAndOnly

OneAndOnly
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:58

Preciseley my point. There is no evidence of anything to protest or suggest they have an illegal car or are exploiting a 'grey area' yet some here have already decided they must be.

Don’t get me wrong, Mercedes’ straight line performance did raise many eyebrows, but without knowing how exactly they got such advantage there is no point to protest. I also find it rather strange to have that big ICE jump in fuel flow limited series, but at this moment we have no idea what is going on.

#25 balage06

balage06
  • Member

  • 2,691 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 06:59

"Obviously it is something, it is something that is enabling the car to do that kind of speed, you know that umm, something must happen. Physics wouldn't allow the kind of horsepower delta that you would need to achieve that."

 

Wow, that's very convincing from Horner! Especially the 'umm' before 'something'.



#26 loki

loki
  • Member

  • 8,289 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:01

Looks like they’re just better than everyone else right now.



#27 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:01

The straws, they must be clutched. 

 

Hamilton had "only" a 4 km/h advantage over the second fastest car, which oddly enough, was Mazepin. It makes you wonder, given the "logic" used by many this weekend; if it was all down to having a faster car on the straights than everybody else, then why wasn't Mazepin on the podium?



#28 Sash1

Sash1
  • Member

  • 1,080 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:01

Well, Mercedes found out that if they stress the engine more, it is fast enough to overcome the grid penalty they will get. They have the money to abuse an ICE a race, no problem. If I were them, I'd stick a new one in next week as well.



#29 Clrnc

Clrnc
  • Member

  • 4,076 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:04

I don't for one second suspect Merc have an illegal car, really not sure why a lot of people here think so about the wings the engine etc. I think its just the fresh PU, simple as that. 

 

Although I have never suspect Ferrari doing illegal things though so who knows...



#30 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 14,668 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:06

Hamilton had "only" a 4 km/h advantage over the second fastest car, which oddly enough, was Mazepin. It makes you wonder, given the "logic" used by many this weekend; if it was all down to having a faster car on the straights than everybody else, then why wasn't Mazepin on the podium?


If you follow F1 for a longer time, you typically see slower teams top the top speed charts. They generally can’t put on the same levels of df as the top teams. And since corner exits do not have any impact on vMax, they often top those charts.

#31 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 1,300 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:06

Looks like resources, money and a steady #2 driver testing out different engine solutions made this huge difference between two races.

 

Nothing you really can protest about since the cost cap doesn't include the engine


Edited by AnR, 15 November 2021 - 07:07.


#32 Dhillon

Dhillon
  • Member

  • 710 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:10

I am very interested what is happening with Lewis his stearing wheel, another DAS system or does he control something else by bringing the wheel closer to him? https://streamja.com/zPZAM

 

Could he be controlling the read ride height with that ?



#33 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 8,119 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:20

This thread is the result of your growing nervousness all weekend OP. Your desperate for merc to be cheating.

It could be completely different next weekend

Edited by w1Y, 15 November 2021 - 07:23.


#34 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:21

If you follow F1 for a longer time, you typically see slower teams top the top speed charts. They generally can’t put on the same levels of df as the top teams. And since corner exits do not have any impact on vMax, they often top those charts.

 

My point is more that the ever increasing speed delta quoted by people is pointless. Not that top speed or a difference in stop speed ( I won't call it vMax because we're only worried about a scalar and not a vector quantity ) is any true indicator of pace or car performance. 



#35 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 3,869 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:21

Could he be controlling the read ride height with that ?

Nope

#36 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:22

Looks like resources, money and a steady #2 driver testing out different engine solutions made this huge difference between two races.

Nothing you really can protest about since the cost cap doesn't include the engine

There is an in season engine freeze as well, only 1 spec changes is allowed between 2020 and end of 2021 and most of the teams did this change after 2020 season. So engine development is limited althought not completely frozen (yet).

The speed Hamilton's car showed, does make things looks somewhat suspicious, for example we see he was clearly several km/h faster on straights than his team mate (who also have relatively new PU). But if nothing can be found by FIA, then everything is legal, until proven otherwise.

Edited by Vesuvius, 15 November 2021 - 07:25.


#37 AnR

AnR
  • Member

  • 1,300 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:24

This thread is the result of your growing nervousness all weekend OP. Your desperate for merc to be cheating.

 

I think you are more desperate that they aren't..

 

Off course it's off interest this swing in straight line speed, I've never seen anything like it and would like to know what happened, and I think many more are...



#38 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 3,041 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:25

Hamilton had "only" a 4 km/h advantage over the second fastest car, which oddly enough, was Mazepin. It makes you wonder, given the "logic" used by many this weekend; if it was all down to having a faster car on the straights than everybody else, then why wasn't Mazepin on the podium?

There is logic why Mazepin is not there. If you barely have any aero installed on the car to go that fast on the straight, you obviously will be nowhere near the podium.



#39 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 8,119 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:33

I think you are more desperate that they aren't..

Off course it's off interest this swing in straight line speed, I've never seen anything like it and would like to know what happened, and I think many more are...

That's OK and I agree as I want to know. But that's different than almost all of ops posts hinting or downright claiming illegality. A lot of posters have been able to talk about it and want to find out how merc are doing it without every post having an angle of accusation.

Not sure what I'm specifically desperate for. I enjoyed this weekend but still see max as favourite for the wdc max drive yesterday was great, apart from the defending. I didn't really like that.

Edited by w1Y, 15 November 2021 - 07:38.


Advertisement

#40 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,020 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:35

 I think its just the fresh PU, simple as that. 

 

 

Then I would expect a PU change every remaining weekend.



#41 Huffer

Huffer
  • Member

  • 2,526 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:35

There is logic why Mazepin is not there. If you barely have any aero installed on the car to go that fast on the straight, you obviously will be nowhere near the podium.

 

Yes, I know. I was countering one ridiculous claim with an equally ridiculous claim. I mean - does anybody really think that I would expect a Hass, especially driven by Mazepin, to be on the podium?


Edited by Huffer, 15 November 2021 - 07:43.


#42 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,020 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:37

Let's be honest, both Merc & Honda have been doing 'something' this year and last. They have both made leaps in performance that shouldn't be possible for a motor towards to end of it's development cycle. 

If I was Ferrari, I would be feeling pretty hard done by.



#43 KeithD68

KeithD68
  • Member

  • 341 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:38

After this weekends stewarding, either cowardly or biased - take your pick, I would laugh my rear off if Mercedes do win on a grey rule

 

I suspect though its simply that what we are seeing is the real performance in that engine, which has been throttled back for most of the season in the name of 3 engine reliability, but Mercedes has said 'sod it' and turned it up full

 

Performance isn't just down to power though, I suspect Mercedes are also now much more comfortable with the high v low rake curve ball thrown at them to disrupt their dominance 

 

What this season has shown imo is its in teams interests to plan to deliberately break the 3 pu rule throughout the season in order to build up either stock of usable engines or introduce performance 


Edited by KeithD68, 15 November 2021 - 07:52.


#44 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 3,591 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:38

So RB set fastest lap but were claimed to have the lowest straight line speed - so obviously running insane amounts of downforce.

 

The paranoia is strong in this one :well:



#45 masa90

masa90
  • Member

  • 1,726 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:38

This was so weird, because his car was so much fastest than anyone else with same engine. Others with same engine didn't look so overpowered. It looked like playing on playstation with easy setting ai. That Ferrari-example was good aswell.

But the weird thing is, that the speed difference was so freaking huge it looked like 2014 Mercedes vs Ferrari. But like everyone else was driving 2014 Ferrari engine.

#46 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 8,119 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:39

This was so weird, because his car was so much fastest than anyone else with same engine. Others with same engine didn't look so overpowered. It looked like playing on playstation with easy setting ai. That Ferrari-example was good aswell.

But the weird thing is, that the speed difference was so freaking huge it looked like 2014 Mercedes vs Ferrari. But like everyone else was driving 2014 Ferrari engine.


Funny how even with drs it wasn't an easy move on max. People make out he just sailed by at the earliest opportunity which is just not what happened

#47 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 7,020 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:46

Funny how even with drs it wasn't an easy move on max. People make out he just sailed by at the earliest opportunity which is just not what happened

 

I think in other cases, Norris/Sainz accepted their fate because their race didn't depend on keeping Lewis behind. 

Max would have been fully juicing out the battery for the 2x straights. 



#48 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 8,119 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:49

I think in other cases, Norris/Sainz accepted their fate because their race didn't depend on keeping Lewis behind.

Max would have been fully juicing out the battery for the 2x straights.


And Lewis was probably juicing his too. I just think it's a little overblown. Sure, it's there but not as crazy as people make out.

Unless red bulls wing change before the race has some secret performance element to it that saw red bull improve straight line speed. /s

#49 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 14,668 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 15 November 2021 - 07:57

My point is more that the ever increasing speed delta quoted by people is pointless. Not that top speed or a difference in stop speed ( I won't call it vMax because we're only worried about a scalar and not a vector quantity ) is any true indicator of pace or car performance.


A high top speed AND a strong car in the corners is an indicator of performance. Hamilton was very close to Verstappen in S2, but still had 7-10km/h speed delta on him.

It is the combination of these elements.

#50 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 24,468 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 15 November 2021 - 08:08

So RB set fastest lap but were claimed to have the lowest straight line speed - so obviously running insane amounts of downforce.

 

The paranoia is strong in this one :well:

Claimed? Sure, Horner must have manipulated the readings on the measuring equipment. :p

 

And Red Bull always has "insane amounts of downforce" since forever. It's their car concept, crucially mostly not achieved through wing levels, and still traditional making them slower than the competition on the straights.

 

Hamiltons Mercedes at least matched them yesterday on downforce, with a visibly steeper rearwing. To the extent that Hamilton could even run different lines in the infield and still be fast. That's not the mystery. How at the same time that car could be fastest by a margin in a straight line however is much more intriguing.