53 replies to this topic

[Gareth]

Are there any replays of that Tsunoda incident?

Have to say I thought he was very hard done by - looked like Stroll’s fault to me, Tsunoda was far enough up to be given space. So I was amazed when not only was it Tsunoda copping the penalty, but that it was a 10s job!

[Ivanhoe]

Are there any replays of that Tsunoda incident?

Have to say I thought he was very hard done by - looked like Stroll’s fault to me, Tsunoda was far enough up to be given space. So I was amazed when not only was it Tsunoda copping the penalty, but that it was a 10s job!

[Gareth]

Thanks loads!

I feel really sorry for him watching that back.

[ANF]

Yuki came from a long way back, but that was a bullshit penalty.

[Augurk]

Yuki came from a long way back, but that was a bullshit penalty.

I agree. At first I thought it was a bit of a do or die move gone wrong and penalty justified. Looking back it looks like he was perfectly entitled to do what he did and had scrubbed enough speed to be on the apex. Stroll had to leave a space which he didn't (and it's not the first time mind you). 

[Requiem84]

If only RB would have told Max that such a dive on the inside would be punishable, means that Max could have left the door into T1 more open . 

[jcbc3]

Kiesa on Danish tv put almost full blame on Tsunoda. He started by saying that mirrors on F1 cars are just token (as in you can't see very much and the field of vision is very limited), so if you want to divebomb someone you have to show yourself before the last moment. He said that experienced drivers know this and that Tsunoda didn't give Stroll a chance to see that he was coming. And furthermore that Tsunoda should have known that he was attacking a closing door.

 

FWIW, I also thought it was on Stroll at first viewing, but I trust this experienced driver more than my own instincts (I was about to invoke the Stewards in this sentence but thought better of it)

[SophieB]

 

It's completely beside the point but wow, that car got sliced up like in the chariot race from Ben Hur!*

 

 

*which is an awesomely exciting bit of film plus great fun to do commentary to at home on in the style of Murray Walker, by the way.

[balage06]

I think there is more than two carlengths between the two before the braking zone. It's nowhere near a legit overtaking attempt in my view. Of course, Stroll could have been a gentleman, but he had every right for the racing line there. 100% Tsunoda's fault in my book.

[Gareth]

Interesting take jcbc3, cheers.

I think those mirrors may be a touch better than suggested, given Vettel spotted a tear off stuck in his rear wing. And I do like an overtake that comes from a long way back.

But interesting to get the expert’s perspective like you say. It being a Tsunoda penalty, and it being 10s, really surprised me and that helps explain it.

[Muppetmad]

I'd lean towards it being Tsunoda's fault, although losing his front wing was punishment enough.

[ANF]

"He was not looking at all!" https://youtu.be/z3Ahfo9FXos?t=145

[ANF]

To me it's a 50/50 racing incident: Tsunoda came from a long way back and he popped out late. Stroll didn't see him but he should have.
Maybe it's a 5-second penalty for Tsunoda. Maybe you could argue he should have been alongside Stroll at the apex.
10 seconds?! Too harsh.

 

The stewards' reasoning? Not a very accurate description of what happened:

"Car 22 was slipstreaming car 18 along the front straight and was considerably faster on the inside at turn 1. However, he braked too late and collided with car 18 in this optimistic manoeuvre. The Stewards find him wholly at fault."

Edited by ANF, 15 November 2021 - 18:05.

[TheRhodesian74]

Got to say that the massive explosion of debris looked incredible on my friends new posh Television. 

 

six of one, half a dozen of the other for the incident though, should have been a racing incident for me

[pacificquay]

Some odd responses in this thread - this was a 100% slam dunk penalty and I can’t see how Tsunoda can have any complaints 

[cpbell]

Some odd responses in this thread - this was a 100% slam dunk penalty and I can’t see how Tsunoda can have any complaints 

Agreed.  Divebomb move.

[Burtros]

Ridiculous penalty for Yuki who doesn’t look to be overly at fault.

Really not something that warranted intervention from the stewards. Both drivers suffered enough from it.

[ensign14]

Contact was front wheel to front wheel which means Stroll is at fault for not giving Tsunoda room.  But Stroll is already on eight penalty points and we know that the stewards will re-invent the laws of physics to avoid giving anyone a ban.

 

Not the first time Stroll's peripheral vision has been questionable though.  Even Vettel had a word with dad.

[eibyyz]

Begging the question, but if the mirrors are submarine screendoors, why not make them bigger?  Hulking Ford F-650 trailer-towing mirrors, like the Tyrrell 006...

[flyboym3]

Very odd interpretations in this thread, tsunoda had earnt the right to be on that kerb given he was so far up alongside stroll.

FIA should have penalised stroll or worst case call it a racing incident.

[William Hunt]

Are there any replays of that Tsunoda incident?

Have to say I thought he was very hard done by - looked like Stroll’s fault to me, Tsunoda was far enough up to be given space. So I was amazed when not only was it Tsunoda copping the penalty, but that it was a 10s job!

 

That was exactly the impression I had but I guess the stewards had a different interpretation. To me it really looked like Stroll's fault

[ARTGP]

Begging the question, but if the mirrors are submarine screendoors, why not make them bigger?  Hulking Ford F-650 trailer-towing mirrors, like the Tyrrell 006...

 

Too much bureaucracy to do anything quickly.  Slow moving governance.

Edited by ARTGP, 15 November 2021 - 19:45.

[flyboym3]

It's crazy how some of us with no skin in the game have such different conclusions to the stewardship.

Something is very very wrong with stewarding.

[AustinF1]

I agree. At first I thought it was a bit of a do or die move gone wrong and penalty justified. Looking back it looks like he was perfectly entitled to do what he did and had scrubbed enough speed to be on the apex. Stroll had to leave a space which he didn't (and it's not the first time mind you). 

Yep. If a penalty was warranted there, it should have been on MiniStroll.

[AustinF1]

Very odd interpretations in this thread, tsunoda had earnt the right to be on that kerb given he was so far up alongside stroll.

FIA should have penalised stroll or worst case call it a racing incident.

Yep. The whole "he came from too far back" argument is nonsense when the attacking driver massively outbraked the defending car, was clearly alongside at the apex, and was fully under control and on a proper line. Contact only happened because Stroll didn't leave enough room.

Edited by AustinF1, 15 November 2021 - 19:59.

[balage06]

Yep. The whole "he came from too far back" argument is nonsense when the attacking driver massively outbraked the defending car and was clearly alongside at the apex. 

 

But the reference is the braking point, not the middle of the corner. Otherwise, every punt would be legal if someone manages to put his nose in front by not braking properly.

Edited by balage06, 15 November 2021 - 20:00.

[AustinF1]

It's crazy how some of us with no skin in the game have such different conclusions to the stewardship.

Something is very very wrong with stewarding.

Yep. It's a bad, sad joke.

[flyboym3]

Yep. The whole "he came from too far back" argument is nonsense when the attacking driver massively outbraked the defending car, was clearly alongside at the apex, and was fully under control and on a proper line. Contact only happened because Stroll didn't leave enough room.

So how do we explain the stewardship reasoning if we can come to the same conclusion?

I don't even understand how the drivers know what the reference point is here, it's all over the place.

Edited by flyboym3, 15 November 2021 - 20:02.

[ANF]

Begging the question, but if the mirrors are submarine screendoors, why not make them bigger?  Hulking Ford F-650 trailer-towing mirrors, like the Tyrrell 006...

I think the mirrors are fine if you look in them, certainly better than they were back when Kiesa was racing.

Ocon isn't really looking in them here, but they can be seen in the corners:

 

Higher quality from Monaco:

 

Edited by ANF, 15 November 2021 - 20:08.

[AustinF1]

So how do we explain the stewardship reasoning if we can come to the same conclusion?

I don't even understand how the drivers know what the reference point is here, it's all over the place.

We can't. On practically every incident, the stewards' decision is basically a crap shoot.

 

It's no wonder Alonso and others are frustrated with it. They have no idea what will be allowed and what won't be allowed from one race to the next, and indeed often from one lap to the next.

Edited by AustinF1, 15 November 2021 - 20:24.

[PlatenGlass]

Harsh penalty. I don't think it matters how far back you come from if you can get alongside without understeering wide.

What about every pass Daniel Ricciardo did ever at Red Bull?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

That explanation for the penalty was just embarrassing.  I hope there is a way to at least appeal the penalty points, because this was just a shocking call.

[Clrnc]

This is what would have happened if Norris didn't give space to Hamilton in the sprint qualifying. 

 

Stroll is just Stoll, always having poor racecraft and awareness. Shocking penalty to Yuki

[Jellyfishcake]

Let's be clear, it's another case of the driver involved having a 'reputation' and not being one of the popular guys...

 

Tsunoda has done a lot wrong this season, but that is a ridiculous penalty, if it'd been Ricciardo diving down the inside and Stroll turned in like he did they'd have said Stroll should have given him space for exmaple.

[noikeee]

It was a divebomb. You can't complain about getting a penalty if you do a divebomb.

Only reason people think it's odd, is there's been times in the past that drivers got away with divebombs because the defending driver spotted it and avoided contact at the last moment, and everyone said, wow well done what a spectacular pass. Ricciardo has made a career of this. However its a very very fine line between doing that, or just randomly crashing into people at the apex, because the guy ahead cannot be expected to be looking into his mirrors AFTER he's started to turn in. It takes some exquisite timing and incredible trust in the defending driver and/or a superb sense of avoidance by the defender. You cannot reasonably *expect* someone in Stroll's position to do it so it's not his fault.

It's racing at 300kph with tiny mirrors and terrible visibility, it's not Assetto Corsa when you have a radar widget in your eyeballs telling you to dodge the league's idiot crasher that's coming from a billion miles out.

[milestone 11]

Yeah, I'm on Yuki's side here too. As he so beautifully put it, "Lance wasn't doing the back looking", giggle giggle.

[AustinF1]

This is what would have happened if Norris didn't give space to Hamilton in the sprint qualifying. 

 

Stroll is just Stoll, always having poor racecraft and awareness. Shocking penalty to Yuki

This was exactly the first thing I thought of. I didn't see anyone complaining about Lewis coming from so far back. It's a justifiable move because he made it stick and there was no contact because the defending driver left room.

[pdac]

It seems to me that the term "braking zone" is another of those fluffy terms that have little meaning. The point of breaking depends on the speed of the car, the state of the tyres, the state of the brakes, the general stability of the car, the competence of the driver, etc. etc. If they want to use that term, I suggest they put an actual mark on the track to say "this is where the official braking zone starts" and then write the rules according to that point.

[noikeee]

It seems to me that the term "braking zone" is another of those fluffy terms that have little meaning. The point of breaking depends on the speed of the car, the state of the tyres, the state of the brakes, the general stability of the car, the competence of the driver, etc. etc. If they want to use that term, I suggest they put an actual mark on the track to say "this is where the official braking zone starts" and then write the rules according to that point.

Doesn't matter where it is exactly, you're not supposed to trail the guy ahead and pretend you're not gonna do anything, then suddenly move to the inside after he's already started braking. That's how crashes happen.

If you time it well none of this happens, because you'll start moving to the inside *just* before he's braking - so it's early enough to signal it to him (so he's still checking the mirrors and knows he can't aim for the apex), but it's too late for him to cover the inside.

I'm sorry I like Yuki but I don't like divebombs. It's not malicious, he just needs to learn to execute the timing and positioning of an overtake better.

[PlatenGlass]

This could be a poll.

[JeePee]

Tsunoda perfectly hits the apex without overshooting the corner. Didn't do anything wrong in my book.

[P123]

Tsunoda came from a long way back, so the move was optimistic, but I think he was alongside Lance for long enough into the corner that he had earned a right to some more space than he was given.  The stewards must have taken it as a reckless dive-bomb.

[Retrofly]

Racing incident, Yuki makes the corner on the inside, which means Stroll was trundling around too slowly.

 

I would consider a divebomb something where you absolutly have no chance to make the inside apex, to me this is just Yuki taking the corner and Stroll is blind/useless.

[Gareth]

This could be a poll.

Good shout, have added one.

[tempname11]

Drivers can't look in the mirrors all the time. Especially in the critical moment after hard braking, on turn-in. The car behind was nowhere near just a second before contact, and can't expect any space.

[MattPete]

Racing incident, Yuki makes the corner on the inside, which means Stroll was trundling around too slowly.

 

I would consider a divebomb something where you absolutly have no chance to make the inside apex, to me this is just Yuki taking the corner and Stroll is blind/useless.

 

Stroll was on the racing line for that series of corners.  If you take the inside line, it screws up your entry for the next right-hand corner.

[MattPete]

I don’t know if Stroll was able to catch a glance in that little shaky side mirror, but I do know that he was concentrating on the track, as he should have been.

 

Tsunoda had 100% visibility. He could clearly see Stroll.

 

In contrast, nearly 100% of Stroll’s vision is forward.  Human peripheral vision is 170° —  by the time Tsunoda was visible to Stroll, Tsunoda’s left tire was over the midline of the green-white-yellow curbing, and it would have been physiologically impossible for Stroll to react in time to avoid an accident.

 

But, Stroll was visible to Tsunoda the entire time. 100% Tsunoda’s fault.

[Eff1]

The penalty was probably a bit harsh.

The move is an acceptable one to make, nothing wrong with it at all in my opinion. We want to see drivers having a go. However for a move like that to work the driver in front needs to be a bit compliant.

Problem for Yuki was he didn’t think about who he was making the move against. Stroll doesn’t have the greatest record when it comes to spatial awareness. If Yuki tried it on someone like Alonso or Raikkonen, he might well have pulled it off, or at least the cars will have gone through side by side.

[PlatenGlass]

It seems that in this thread the Autosport forum has invented a new rule that it is up to the overtaking driver not only to make a clean pass but also to consider what the driver they are overtaking might see in their mirrors.

I don't remember this being used to condemn a driver before and it sounds like clutching at straws.

Tsunoda is entitled to overtake whether Stroll is likely to be looking in his mirrors or not. If a driver is too busy to be looking in his mirrors at a given point in time, the onus is on him to realise he has incomplete information about what is around him and to act accordingly. It doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

I voted Stroll's fault but no penalty for what it's worth.

[Singularity]

It is a corner where you directly after turn-in change your focus on the next apex, meaning that if something unexpected happens to your left after you start turning, you will not see it.

Edited by Singularity, 16 November 2021 - 10:15.