54 replies to this topic

[Afterburner]

So I've had little time to catch up on F1-related matters over the weekend, so some of this may have already been covered in the thousands of posts which have been made since the chequered flag fell on Sunday. However, I want to take what happened on Sunday as an opportunity to bring up a rules-change I think F1 should consider at the next opportunity to reformat the rulebook: reinstating pit lane closures during safety car periods.

Now, I know most F1 fans will probably flash back to the lunacy of Singapore 2008 as a reason this shouldn't be revisited–however, if this rule had been in place for Abu Dhabi 2021 and Masi were to make the same decision to restart the race, Hamilton and Verstappen would've been on equally-aged tyres for what was ultimately a last-lap shootout. No less gimmicky, perhaps, but maybe at least a little less artificial than it ultimately played out.

Here are some reasons I think F1 should consider closing the pit lane during all SC periods:

• VSC will have no impact on race strategy: rather than a VSC being "a giant pair of dice that descend from the sky" (thank you to either Risil or SophieB, I can't remember ), a closed pit lane under VSC except in emergency situations would prevent a VSC from randomly awarding any driver a "cheap" pitstop (thank you to Martin Brundle). Anyone who entered the pit lane under VSC for any reason would incur a drive-through penalty so that the time loss would exceed that of making a pit stop under normal racing conditions (no time penalty nonsense so that the system can't be gamed). I see no reason that this can't be part of the rules now, as it preserves the prior running order and strategies of the race as much as possible.

• SC periods do not correlate with pit windows: when cars had to refuel during the race, there was always the chance that a need to stop for fuel would coincide with a period during which the pit lane would be closed. As F1 race strategy is now tyre-limited, this is no longer the case, and there is no need for teams to make stops during SC periods except for strategic gains.

• Closed pit lanes incentivise earlier pit stops: currently, running long to preempt an SC period is the ideal strategy. Were the pit lane to close under SC, pitting early to preempt it would be preferable instead, as it would mean those who did not pit before the SC period would have to do so in a bunched field. This removes the possibility of the "checkmate" advantage state of having fresher tyres, track position (potentially), and fewer laps left for an upset to occur should a driver running long benefit from an SC period (it also makes it far riskier to use the second car as a roadblock, not that I have any issues with that). With a closed pit lane under SC, drivers aiming to take fresh tyres will always have to cede track position, as pitting either before or after an SC period will always place them farther back in the field.

Obviously, closing the pit lane as a matter of procedure would mean establishing a protocol for when SC periods vs. VSC periods (or red flags) would be used, and closely adhering to that protocol, otherwise we end up with the same thing we had last weekend.

I'm a race strategy nerd so I'm consistently fascinated by this part of the sport. There are probably more reasons that this could be a useful change, and definitely some reasons for which it wouldn't be! Let's see if we can work them all out here.

[SophieB]

Okay, I’ll jump in (and not just because I was mentioned!). What about where people who have are involved in a crash but are able to move but need to get back to the pits? Like, involved in a collision where the other car is out of the race (needing a sc) but needs say, a new front wing?

[ClubmanGT]

• SC periods do not correlate with pit windows: when cars had to refuel during the race, there was always the chance that a need to stop for fuel would coincide with a period during which the pit lane would be closed. As F1 race strategy is now tyre-limited, this is no longer the case, and there is no need for teams to make stops during SC periods except for strategic gains.

 

Are we going to have a thread for every single thing that could have de-risked the race for Hamilton?

 

We'll have threads lobbying to ban the undercut next, because it 'isn't fair on the leading driver'. 

[ExFlagMan]

A far bigger reason for closing the pit lane during a SC period is that makes it easier for the train to be closed up sooner, hence giving the marshals a better opportunity to clear up in safety without having to worry about a pitted car coming round unexpectedly.  From some research I have been doing it appears that about 5 mins after the SC call only 10 out of the 15 runners were in the train - some being almost 1/2 a lap behind.

[smitten]

I've argued for sometime that the pitlane should be closed during SC and VSC on the basis of the S in those situations.  Race direction is focussed on the on-track incident that has caused the SC/VSC and then we get a massive pile-in to the pits where despite speed limits and lollipop lights we have cars and humans in close vicinity.

 

I accept that some sensible exceptions for punctures/damage may be necessary.

 

And it also removed the VSC/SC as a strategic opportunity as per the OP.

[SenorSjon]

We had this once, but still in the refueling era. It was somehow not continued. But we have thread already for this with all kinds of improvements for the race rules. 

 

SC/VSC only open for dry to wet or wet to dry or fix damaged parts like wings or flat tires. Iirc, in Indy you have an additional DT if you enter a closed pitlane.

[Anderis]

Closed pit lane really, like really really much screws every driver who is on worn tyres at the moment. It bothers me so much people never realise this, and worse, some even enter some kind of a denial when reminded about this. Normally I would link my thread about this issue but I've realised most people apparently can't be bothered with it so why would I.

 

Now I only wait for FIA to actually forbid tyre change during SC and red flag, so that people can actually see what it does when it happens while drivers are all over the place with the age of their tyres, because it seems there's no other way to teach them that. It'll also increase undpredictability and encourage more frequent tyre change (so that the drivers will try to be always on relatively fresh tyres in case there actually is a SC), so there are some benefits.

Edited by Anderis, 14 December 2021 - 18:58.

[ARTGP]

Pitlane has to be open.  It's the same rule for everyone. 

 

What if it suddenly starts raining, everyone is on slicks, somebody bins it, and then a SC is called.  PL is closed. Cars continue to circulate with stone cold slicks in the wet, binning it 1 by 1.

Or debris on track, someone gets a slow puncture.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 December 2021 - 19:00.

[Spillage]

I think there's more a case for ythis under the VSC than the full SC. Closing the pitlane during a full safety car would create more random strategy results rather than less, handing as it does a big advantage to the driver who has just pitted over one who is yet to pit. Renault used this to cheat their way to victory in the 2008 Singapore GP but it could just as easily happen by accident. That would create more problems than it solves.

 

Under the VSC this might be an idea though, as that does give a basically random advantage to drivers who make their stops during th VSC period.

 

Finally, as far as the race last Sunday goes it's worth remembering that Mercedes also had the chance to pit and chose not to. By all means criticise the way the race was restarted but the deployment of the SC was clearly the correct call and what played out after it was withdrawn was because Red Bull chose to pit for softs and Mercedes didn't/ Them's tje breaks sometimes.

[Clatter]

A far bigger reason for closing the pit lane during a SC period is that makes it easier for the train to be closed up sooner, hence giving the marshals a better opportunity to clear up in safety without having to worry about a pitted car coming round unexpectedly.  From some research I have been doing it appears that about 5 mins after the SC call only 10 out of the 15 runners were in the train - some being almost 1/2 a lap behind.

 

don't they have to drive to a delta as well? That seems to greatly delay them catching up to the pack even if they haven't pitted.

[smitten]

Closed pit lane really, like really really much screws every driver who is on worn tyres at the moment. It bothers me so much people never realise this, and worse, some even enter some kind of a denial when reminded about this. Normally I would link my thread about this issue but I've realised most people apparently can't be bothered with it so why would I.

I remember the thread and the great analysis you did

 

Still not sure I agree with you, however.

[Anderis]

Still not sure I agree with you, however.

This is the problem I have with it.

 

People say they don't agree but there was not one person that has ever made any kind of counter-argument any time I brought up this topic or pointed any specific flaw in my analysis. I'm pretty sure you can't debunk that a driver who's caught by a SC/red flag while being on tyres 30 laps older than most drivers behind him and can't change the tyres is completely and utterly screwed. Everyone who doesn't agree- here I am, I'll listen to any kind of justification how a driver will not be completely screwed in this situation because I'm very curious how you are going to justify it.

[Brickworks]

What about pit lane stays open during SC and VSC but impose a minimum pitstop time or reduce the pit lane speed limit such that no-one gains an advantage? 

[engineblock1]

One thing that can be done to neutralize the advantage of pitting under SC is to mandate minimum pitstop time, that is equivalent to the time taken in normal racing conditions

[Brickworks]

Haha! My first ever post and someone posts the exact same idea at exact same time!

[Anderis]

What about pit lane stays open during SC and VSC but impose a minimum pitstop time or reduce the pit lane speed limit such that no-one gains an advantage? 

This could work quite well.
 

[Gareth]

Under a VSC, maybe, I can see it.

 

Under an SC? I don't. Just switches the advantage from pitting late and lucking in to an SC, to pitting early under an SC. And the early pit (undercut) is already an advantage. So you just force teams on to even more monochrome strategy approaches.

 

The "danger zone" thing in Indy is, IMO, not its best feature. Just means you only have two strategies: 1. what 90% of the field do; and 2. 10% of the field taking a massive gamble and occasionally rolling a double six. That works for Indy I think, which has a different vibe. It's not what I want from F1. Like, I absolutely love both burgers and steaks but I don't want cutlery at Five Guys or my drink in a paper cup at Smith & Wolensky (different readers will associate different series with different dining experiences, I am sure ...).

[ExFlagMan]

don't they have to drive to a delta as well? That seems to greatly delay them catching up to the pack even if they haven't pitted.

 

Easy way to do that is to give them a faster delta round the clear parts of the track until they catch up with the train.

[ARTGP]

I think on the balance, there isn't a need to change anything. The rule is the same for everyone and over a career driving in F1, each driver will likely get just as much good fortune from it, as bad fortune. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

Safety cars will always benefit one driver and shaft another driver - it is luck dealt by the racing gods and I’ve no issue with this unpredictability.

 

It’s part of the excitement of the race, for me.

[Afterburner]

Closed pit lane really, like really really much screws every driver who is on worn tyres at the moment. It bothers me so much people never realise this, and worse, some even enter some kind of a denial when reminded about this. Normally I would link my thread about this issue but I've realised most people apparently can't be bothered with it so why would I.
 
Now I only wait for FIA to actually forbid tyre change during SC and red flag, so that people can actually see what it does when it happens while drivers are all over the place with the age of their tyres, because it seems there's no other way to teach them that. It'll also increase undpredictability and encourage more frequent tyre change (so that the drivers will try to be always on relatively fresh tyres in case there actually is a SC), so there are some benefits.

This is the problem I have with it.
 
People say they don't agree but there was not one person that has ever made any kind of counter-argument any time I brought up this topic or pointed any specific flaw in my analysis. I'm pretty sure you can't debunk that a driver who's caught by a SC/red flag while being on tyres 30 laps older than most drivers behind him and can't change the tyres is completely and utterly screwed. Everyone who doesn't agree- here I am, I'll listen to any kind of justification how a driver will not be completely screwed in this situation because I'm very curious how you are going to justify it.

I would love to read this thread, if you have a link!

Other than erasing any gap they have to drivers on fresher tyres, I'm not sure how closing the pit lane disproportionately screws over drivers on older tyres. If there had been a safety car period at Paul Ricard this year when Verstappen was chasing Hamilton and the gap was at like 15 s, for example, yeah, I can see that, but would it be any more fair if Hamilton got a free tyre change and kept track position?

It does make two-stop races a bit trickier because, to Gareth's point, it makes strategies more monochromatic, but I'm not sure which better preserves the integrity of a race; should teams have the ability to plan for the effects of a potential SC period in advance (i.e. "Danger Zone"), or should the effect of the SC depend entirely on where a driver is when the SC appears, which gives some drivers more margin for error than others when it comes to making a free pit stop before the field is bunched?

Obviously exceptions can be made to the closure for damaged cars.

[Ivanhoe]

Safety cars will always benefit one driver and shaft another driver - it is luck dealt by the racing gods and I’ve no issue with this unpredictability.

 

It’s part of the excitement of the race, for me.

But that won’t change when you close the pit lane, it will only benefit the early stoppers instead of the late stoppers. But it might benefit safety and shorten the time the SC is on track.

[mclarensmps]

I'd like the opposite to happen. Evereone should pit, and line up at the exit. That way we don't lose laps and positions are shuffled in the pitlane itself. 

[Clatter]

I think on the balance, there isn't a need to change anything. The rule is the same for everyone and over a career driving in F1, each driver will likely get just as much good fortune from it, as bad fortune. 

 

I agree that things like pitstops will likely even out, but I do think there are things about the SC period that need looking at, as there are too many wasted laps. It often takes too long for the pack to close up, and they won't send the workers out until it is. The whole unlapping process wastes another lap or 2.

[Anderis]

I would love to read this thread, if you have a link!

https://forums.autos...g/#entry9537748

 

Other than erasing any gap they have to drivers on fresher tyres, I'm not sure how closing the pit lane disproportionately screws over drivers on older tyres.

Because you're on older tyres than the drivers behind you and you haven't made your pit stop, yet, so you're both slower than the drivers behind you at the moment and still have to pit one more time than them while not having any time buffer (and you're never going to have one because you'll not be lapping faster than the cars on 30 laps fresher tyres behind you, moreover, if you don't pit immediately, most of them will overtake you and will even start opening a gap to you while you still have to pit one more time than them). It can happen to you while you were in the lead pushing you from a safe 1st to something like 13th for example.
 

Edited by Anderis, 14 December 2021 - 19:58.

[ARTGP]

https://forums.autos...g/#entry9537748

 

Because you're on older tyres than the drivers behind you and you haven't made your pit stop, yet, so you're both slower than the drivers behind you at the moment and still have to pit one more time than them while not having any time buffer (and you're never going to have one because you'll not be lapping faster than the cars on 30 laps fresher tyres behind you, moreover, if you don't pit immediately, most of them will overtake you and will even start opening a gap to you while you still have to pit one more time than them). 

 

Yep, and also pitting immediately after a safetycar cost you even more track position than usual because cars are grouped together again. You would come out in P20 if you pit after safetycar.

[Afterburner]

https://forums.autos...g/#entry9537748
 
Because you're on older tyres than the drivers behind you and you haven't made your pit stop, yet, so you're both slower than the drivers behind you at the moment and still have to pit one more time than them while not having any time buffer (and you're never going to have one because you'll not be lapping faster than the cars on 30 laps fresher tyres behind you, moreover, if you don't pit immediately, most of them will overtake you and will even start opening a gap to you while you still have to pit one more time than them). It can happen to you while you were in the lead pushing you from a safe 1st to something like 13th for example.

Yeah, this is what Gareth (and most IndyCar folk) refer to as "being caught in the danger zone": when you stay out past the opening of a pit window while your rivals pit, because staying out tempts exactly the scenario you describe. The obvious counter is to pit as early as possible.

From my view the key argument in favour of closing the pit lane seems to be that it removes the chance of somebody getting a free stop + fresher tyres + track position, but the key argument against (so far) is that it makes all the strategies one-dimensional (pit when the window opens). With a closed pitlane you also have the "pray for double sixes" approach in terms of doing the opposite of the leaders and hoping the yellows fall your way, but I feel like that also applies to the strategy of staying out as long as possible in the hopes of an SC as well–we just don't see it netting people wins in F1 as often because the cars aren't evenly matched (maybe Gasly at Monza last year counts).

If, all things being equal, there is no clear way to "save" the outcome of the race, then maybe just doing whatever is safest for everyone involved is the best move–that might be why F1 leaves the pit lane open, so there aren't 20 cars all trying to get in and out of their 2 second pit stops at the same time if pitting under yellow is the ideal strategy...

[Rediscoveryx]

I kind of like the F1 version where the pitlane is always open. It adds jeopardy into a sport that's (usually) lacking it. But I guess it depends on which side of the spectrum you fall on. Some people prefer the fastest driver/car combination to be rewarded with the win at every race. Some people prefer the underdogs to get a sniff once in a while, even if it's through some "unfair advantage" such as being able to pit during a VSC while the guy in front of you stayed out. I'm in the second category myself.

[Anderis]

From my view the key argument in favour of closing the pit lane seems to be that it removes the chance of somebody getting a free stop + fresher tyres + track position, but the key argument against (so far) is that it makes all the strategies one-dimensional (pit when the window opens). With a closed pitlane you also have the "pray for double sixes" in terms of doing the opposite of the leaders and hoping the yellows fall your way, but I feel like that also applies to the strategy of staying out as long as possible in the hopes of an SC as well–we just don't see it netting people wins in F1 as often because the cars aren't evenly matched (maybe Gasly at Monza last year counts).

I'm slightly confused if you refer to F1 or IndyCar in this paragraph.

 

Just in case I'll clarify that In F1, closing the pit lane doesn't remove the chance of somebody getting a free stop, it creates it. With current rules, you don't really get a free pit stop (under SC, under red flag you can), because if you have cars immediately behind you and they don't pit, you'll drop behind them. What SC does is only make that window of where the other cars need to be to end up ahead of you when you pit a little bit smaller.

However, when the pit lane is closed, you end up with a free stop if you manage to time your pit stop to just before the SC. Because in racing conditions, when you pit, you lose around 25 seconds to your competitors and get fresh tyres in return. When SC appears immediately after, you then still have fresh tyres but the 25 seconds gap to those who haven't changed tyres is evaporated (and they're stuck on old tyres). Bascially a free pit stop.

 

 

I kind of like the F1 version where the pitlane is always open. It adds jeopardy into a sport that's (usually) lacking it. But I guess it depends on which side of the spectrum you fall on. Some people prefer the fastest driver/car combination to be rewarded with the win at every race. Some people prefer the underdogs to get a sniff once in a while, even if it's through some "unfair advantage" such as being able to pit during a VSC while the guy in front of you stayed out. I'm in the second category myself.

With closed pit lanes, the underdogs would actually have more opportunities.

Edited by Anderis, 14 December 2021 - 20:32.

[Rediscoveryx]

 

With closed pit lanes, the underdogs would actually have more opportunities.

 

Is that based on the premise of them just having pitted when the safety car comes out? That wouldn't be an advantage if it's VSC rather than SC at least.

[Anderis]

Is that based on the premise of them just having pitted when the safety car comes out? That wouldn't be an advantage if it's VSC rather than SC at least.

Yeah, for VSC closed pit lanes don't mess things up.

 

For a full SC they very well would. The underdogs could benefit the way Alonso did in Singapore 2008- by making their pit stop just a little bit earlier than the rest of the grid. They would then be the only one on the fresh tyres while the grid is bunched up. The rest either pits immediately after SC is gone, and that 100% results in them ending behind, no matter what the situation was before the SC or they stay out and need to struggle on older tyres without the time buffer.

The other way underdogs could benefit would be by just the top guys being screwed in the situation I described here:

Because you're on older tyres than the drivers behind you and you haven't made your pit stop, yet, so you're both slower than the drivers behind you at the moment and still have to pit one more time than them while not having any time buffer (and you're never going to have one because you'll not be lapping faster than the cars on 30 laps fresher tyres behind you, moreover, if you don't pit immediately, most of them will overtake you and will even start opening a gap to you while you still have to pit one more time than them). It can happen to you while you were in the lead pushing you from a safe 1st to something like 13th for example.

 

When the tyre change is allowed, the benefitted are those who have not made a pit stop yet. When tyre change is forbidden, the benefitted are those who have made a pit stop recently. In the first case, though, the benefits are limited. Mazepin never takes the lead just because he's the only driver who hasn't pitted yet and race leader never ends up last after a planned pit stop. In the second case, the benefits are unlimited, because it could theoretically push you from 1st to 20th or from 20th to 1st if you were the only driver doing the opposite of what everyone else has done with the tyres.

Edited by Anderis, 14 December 2021 - 20:45.

[ARTGP]

If, all things being equal, there is no clear way to "save" the outcome of the race, then maybe just doing whatever is safest for everyone involved is the best move–that might be why F1 leaves the pit lane open, so there aren't 20 cars all trying to get in and out of their 2 second pit stops at the same time if pitting under yellow is the ideal strategy...

 

Another good point. F1 is not designed for everyone to pit at the same time. It's an oversight but it's not been exposed because as it is, everyone does not barrel into the pits at the same time like an IMSA race.   Teams have to double stack and the trailing car has his rear sticking out in the slow lone, but in front of the pit box of the team that is behind. The team that is behind can't exit it's pit box until the team in front get's it's double stack done. It would be a complete traffic jam.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 December 2021 - 20:48.

[Clatter]

Yeah, for VSC closed pit lanes don't mess things up.

 

For a full SC they very well would. The underdogs could benefit the way Alonso did in Singapore 2008- by making their pit stop just a little bit earlier than the rest of the grid. They would then be the only one on the fresh tyres while the grid is bunched up. The rest either pits immediately after SC is gone, and that 100% results in them ending behind, no matter what the situation was before the SC or they stay out and need to struggle on older tyres without the time buffer.

The other way underdogs could benefit would be by just the top guys being screwed in the situation I described here:

 

When the tyre change is allowed, the benefitted are those who have not made a pit stop yet. When tyre change is forbidden, the benefitted are those who have made a pit stop recently. In the first case, though, the benefits are limited. Mazepin never takes the lead just because he's the only driver who hasn't pitted yet and race leader never ends up last after a planned pit stop. In the second case, the benefits are unlimited, because it could theoretically push you from 1st to 20th or from 20th to 1st if you were the only driver doing the opposite of what everyone else has done with the tyres.

 

It wouldn't only be an underdog who could benefit though, it could be any driver who pitted before a SC. All your really highlighting is that whether the pits are open or closed, there is still a safety car lottery, where some may win and others may lose

[Anderis]

It wouldn't only be an underdog who could benefit though, it could be any driver who pitted before a SC. All your really highlighting is that whether the pits are open or closed, there is still a safety car lottery, where some may win and others may lose

Some kind of a lottery is unavoidable whether we have open or closed pit lanes, because before SC/red flag there were time gaps and after there aren't anymore.

 

Out of the two, closed pit lanes have the potential to alter the race result to a bigger extent. Yes, not only an underdog can benefit, but statistically:

- underdog will benefit more frequently/to a bigger extent than a frontrunner, because a frontrunner is usually near the front already, so can't gain many positions from SC/red flag.

- the maximum potential benefit an underdog can get from a SC/red flag will be bigger with a closed pit lane than with an open pit lane, so statistically, over a long period of time, we would have a bigger variety of results with closed pit lanes than with open pit lanes.

Edited by Anderis, 14 December 2021 - 21:12.

[ExFlagMan]

I kind of like the F1 version where the pitlane is always open. It adds jeopardy into a sport that's (usually) lacking it. But I guess it depends on which side of the spectrum you fall on. Some people prefer the fastest driver/car combination to be rewarded with the win at every race. Some people prefer the underdogs to get a sniff once in a while, even if it's through some "unfair advantage" such as being able to pit during a VSC while the guy in front of you stayed out. I'm in the second category myself.

 

Especially for those who have to go out to clear up the mess.

[Anderis]

Especially for those who have to go out to clear up the mess.

Only if the accident is near pit entry/pit exit, otherwise I don't think it makes any difference?

 

Alternatively, they can wait until all the cars are done with the pit stops and only then start working to clear up the accident- then the effect on safety will be nonexistent.

[Ferrim]

Renault used this to cheat their way to victory in the 2008 Singapore GP but it could just as easily happen by accident.

Indeed a big part of why Renault cheated was that they benefitted big, by accident, in the German GP. Piquet was on a one-stopper and absolutely nowhere, but right after he had pitted and when everyone else had yet to stop again, Glock crashed out and the SC was deployed. Piquet got past the whole field, led for a few laps and finished second...

[Paa]

I think this would create around just as many issues as it would solve. Just different kind.

 

 

The fairest way would be if original gaps would be reset after SC. This would be relatively easy by giving each driver individual delta times on their dash, just like with VSC. If someone is pitting during SC / VSC then the relative gain compared to a normal pit stop would be added to his time, so he would just get a slower delta. 

This would be the fairest way for safety to not interfere with justice.

 

This would still not be perfect btw, because unfortunately we still miss some racing laps with the SC/VSC. So it can happen, that someone would need 10 laps to catch an other driver, but a 5 lap SC phase takes that opportunity away (don't forget, original gaps would be restored in my proposal).

 

Even after a red flag, this system could restore the original gaps, so racing could continue as it was before. BTW I would not allow free tyre change and repairs during red flag. They could if they wanted to but it would cost additional time penalty. (a tyre change would add a standard box time: 20-25s depending on track. Do they also want to change the front wing? They can, for additional 8 seconds added etc)

 

 

We have the technology for this and t would be very fair, but not too television friendly. We just need to decide which one is more important.

Edited by Paa, 14 December 2021 - 21:50.

[ARTGP]

I'm not even sure I have a desire to see the safety car rules "fixed".  It adds unpredictability that has been desperately needed in this sport. It's already a bit **** if you are driving for a backmarker team with no hope for much of any results that season.  Trying to restore the gaps as before will kill any hope those teams have.

Edited by ARTGP, 14 December 2021 - 21:52.

[Frank Tuesday]

Until they change SC, VSC and Red Flag so that they don't bunch up the field and take away gaps that drivers have earned, nothing will stop the inherent unfairness of random accidents penalizing some strategies over others. Closing or opening the pits only changes which strategy is penalized.

You're trying to fix a severed artery with a band-aid/plaster.

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 14 December 2021 - 21:53.

[Frank Tuesday]

Okay, I’ll jump in (and not just because I was mentioned!). What about where people who have are involved in a crash but are able to move but need to get back to the pits? Like, involved in a collision where the other car is out of the race (needing a sc) but needs say, a new front wing?

Allow the pits to remain open, but after finishing work, the car has to stay stationary for 10s (or 6,11,13, or any other time that prevents putting during VSC from being a time benefit over pitting during green) before they can resume. This should balance the time so the the gap will be the same whether the pit stop was made during Green or VSC.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think it makes sense to close the pits during VSC, especially since they can last less than a lap and really screw over some people just due to where they happen to be on the track.  I think closing the pits during the SC period is a cure much worse than the disease.  We have that in Indycar, and it often results in undeserving drivers winning the race while dominant drivers are shafted.

[Stephane]

They should close the pitlane all the time during a race.

[Cliff]

Okay, I’ll jump in (and not just because I was mentioned!). What about where people who have are involved in a crash but are able to move but need to get back to the pits? Like, involved in a collision where the other car is out of the race (needing a sc) but needs say, a new front wing?

 

This.

 

Closing the pitlane should only be done when there's debris in front of the pitlane entry. Like Monza 2020.

[Fonzey]

Under an SC? I don't. Just switches the advantage from pitting late and lucking in to an SC, to pitting early under an SC. And the early pit (undercut) is already an advantage. So you just force teams on to even more monochrome strategy approaches.

 

 

Exactly this, it would just reverse the implications a bit. Either way, one drive can be gifted positions.

 

Currently:

 

Leader pits in accordance to "optimal strategy" on lap 15.

P2 stays out, "just in case"

SC on Lap 17

P2 inherits the lead due to a cheaper stop.

 

Proposed:

 

P2 attempts the undercut 3 laps ahead of optimal (lap 12)

SC comes out on Lap 13

Pack is now bunched back up, P2 has gained all of his pitstop loss back - and leader is still on original tyres

P2 inherits the lead when P1 makes his stop, in fact - P1 may well end up way down the order, not just losing his lead.

 

I guess it could encourage multi-stop races a bit more, because "staying out" becomes a dangerous game.

[Dutchrudder]

Okay, I’ll jump in (and not just because I was mentioned!). What about where people who have are involved in a crash but are able to move but need to get back to the pits? Like, involved in a collision where the other car is out of the race (needing a sc) but needs say, a new front wing?

Give a 15 second hold before working on the car? Would negate the advantage pit delta advantage, stop the pit lane being cluttered with cars driving through 2 laps in a row. Even a 10 second hold would negate the majority of the advantage at most circuits.

[Rediscoveryx]

Exactly this, it would just reverse the implications a bit. Either way, one drive can be gifted positions.

 

Currently:

 

Leader pits in accordance to "optimal strategy" on lap 15.

P2 stays out, "just in case"

SC on Lap 17

P2 inherits the lead due to a cheaper stop.

 

Proposed:

 

P2 attempts the undercut 3 laps ahead of optimal (lap 12)

SC comes out on Lap 13

Pack is now bunched back up, P2 has gained all of his pitstop loss back - and leader is still on original tyres

P2 inherits the lead when P1 makes his stop, in fact - P1 may well end up way down the order, not just losing his lead.

 

I guess it could encourage multi-stop races a bit more, because "staying out" becomes a dangerous game.

 

On the other hand, the leader would never be incentivized to stay out once the guy behind has pitted. Unless I'm missing something it seems to me that it would increase the frequency of "pit to cover" type strategies, and in the end lead to more uniform strategies.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 15 December 2021 - 09:15.

[Fonzey]

Unless I'm missing something it seems to me that it would increase the frequency of "pit to cover" type strategies, and in the end lead to more uniform strategies.

 

Absolutely. 

 

Whether we like it or not, in F1 contra-strategies are needed to (fairly) shake things up a bit. Anything to discourage them should be, well discouraged

[Baddoer]

Hello? Singapore 2008 ring any bells?

[Rocket73]

i agree with the above sentiments about some cars needing to pit during the SC and how it would be possible to police who can pit and who can't.

 

In the calamity that was the end of the last race the lapped cars were the problem. How about sending the lapped cars through the pit lane to get them out of the way? This would be much quicker way of doing things in general and would have solved sunday's huge drama.