327 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Paul Henri Cahier posted this on Twitter yesterday, having never seen this before, neither had I. It appears to be the infamous collision between Prost and Senna at Suzuka in 1989 from a different angle. In that spirit, I figured others might also find it interesting. Does it change or add to your existing view of the incident? 
 

[Arska]

It merely reaffirms my view: Prost turned in early to cause the crash.

[Risil]

From the classic broadcast angle I could never work out to my own satisfaction whether Prost had taken a normal line into the corner and simply refused to jump out of Senna's way, or if he'd in some way engineered the collision by turning into Senna. It seems a lot more likely based on this angle that it was the latter! Prost turns sharply across, too sharply probably even to hit the apex of the corner.

[Risil]

Of course nowadays Prost would've made a token effort to turn in and then backed out and skipped the chicane without penalty. 

[SophieB]

Yeah, I figured he’d kind of seen there was going to be a crash on the normal line and allowed it to happen rather than take any avoiding action. This angle does make me think he actively helped fate along and made sure a crash happened.

Edited by SophieB, 05 January 2022 - 13:09.
Clarity

[Singularity]

Hmm, that is an interesting angle. Seems to me as if Prost  turn in too early? Hard to say without a normal turn in reference, but... if I had to make a decision I'd say he turns in early and if so... well it would mean he knew Senna was there. 

For me, it strengthens my opinion that Prost deliberately caused that collision. And that Balestre was an [unprintable string of profanities and insults].

[Gareth]

Always thought he turned in too early, and deliberately in order to crash.

 

Now think this even more. His left hand wheels would have been on the inner edge of the kerb.

[PlayboyRacer]

I'd seen this angle a while back. Of course Prost turned in early. But after the events of Estoril 1988 and Imola 1989, who could blame him?

It was a clumsy attempt that's for sure.

[jcbc3]

I don't believe Prost 'crashed' Senna on purpose. I believe he (too late) realized Senna would attempt an overtake and tried to close the door. But responsibility 100% on Prost. An eye opener for me, for sure

[Viryfan]

I'd seen this angle a while back. Of course Prost turned in early. But after the events of Estoril 1988 and Imola 1989, who could blame him?

It was a clumsy attempt that's for sure.

Yup, he had a chance to lock the championship and he did use it.

[PayasYouRace]

I’ve never seen this angle either. Somehow it makes Prost’s move look both more deliberate and more clumsy at the same time.

[Izzyeviel]

I think Red Bull fans will all agree Senna crashed into Prost. 

[Singularity]

I was watching Nico's interview with Prost a while ago. At that time I was giving Prost "the benefit of the doubt" and I assume Nico did as well. I wonder when this clip surfaced and how many "in the business" that might have seen it a long time ago?

[RekF1]

Yeah, I figured he’d kind of seen there was going to be a crash on the normal line and allowed it to happen rather than take any avoiding action. This angle does make me think he actively helped fate along and made sure a crash happened.

That's a very generous way of saying he cheated.

[Cliff]

Re-affirms what I always thought. Prost crashed out Senna on purpose and got saved by his corrupt friend Balestre. The banning of Senna from F1, on top of it all, made it even more ridiculous.

[Afterburner]

My first impression of this incident came from the Senna documentary–so my initial view of this might be skewed slightly–but my impression was that Prost was aiming for Senna rather than the corner based on that trajectory, and this only reaffirms it. Great find! I wonder if there are more views of other such historic collisions, e.g. Adelaide '94 (which I think may have been a mistake) or Jerez '97 (which was clearly intentional).

Given the aftermath of this incident, it certainly puts into perspective why Senna perhaps felt vindicated putting himself in a position to wreck Prost at the same track the next year.

[SophieB]

That's a very generous way of saying he cheated.

It wasn’t intended to be generous!

 

I'd seen this angle a while back. Of course Prost turned in early. But after the events of Estoril 1988 and Imola 1989, who could blame him?

It was a clumsy attempt that's for sure.

Hey, share things like this if you find any more

[PayasYouRace]

My first impression of this incident came from the Senna documentary–so my initial view of this might be skewed slightly–but my impression was that Prost was aiming for Senna rather than the corner based on that trajectory, and this only reaffirms it. Great find! I wonder if there are more views of other such historic collisions, e.g. Adelaide '94 (which I think may have been a mistake) or Jerez '97 (which was clearly intentional).

Given the aftermath of this incident, it certainly puts into perspective why Senna perhaps felt vindicated putting himself in a position to wreck Prost at the same track the next year.

The similarities from this angle of Prost’s swerve into Senna and Schumacher’s swerve into Hill are striking.

[Risil]

Yup, he had a chance to lock the championship and he did use it.

I suspect that if Prost had had infinite time to consider, he wouldn't have chosen the collision, for the simple reason that it didn't work. Prost stalled his engine and was out on the spot, whereas Senna got a push start, pitted for a new front wing and won the race. He was later disqualified, but 1) there was no way Prost could've predicted or been assured that Senna would be DQed, and 2) I don't think the disqualification was decided correctly.

 

As a side point I think it's a shame that this incident overshadows Mansell taking out Senna at Estoril the previous month, which was considerably funnier.

[Peeko]

Senna once again left it to someone else to decide if there was going to be contact or not, problem was Prost was playing Senna's game too; he Senna'd Senna. Senna's pass attempt was overoptimistic and would have required Prost's 100% cooperation and complete submission to pull off, something Senna was not known for. Though not without his part, this isn't all on Prost.

Edited by Peeko, 05 January 2022 - 14:06.

[Risil]

Senna once again left it to someone else to decide if there was going to be contact or not, problem was Prost was playing Senna's game too; he Senna'd Senna. Senna's pass attempt was overoptimistic and would have required Prost's 100% cooperation and complete submission to pull off, something Senna was not known for. Though not without his part, this isn't all on Prost.

 

There might be something to this, however we'll never find out if this was true because from the look of the video, Prost didn't even go for the corner and just turned into him!

[YamahaV10]

Haha wow. Now we know where Micheal learned it from.

[YamahaV10]

Senna once again left it to someone else to decide if there was going to be contact or not, problem was Prost was playing Senna's game too; he Senna'd Senna. Senna's pass attempt was overoptimistic and would have required Prost's 100% cooperation and complete submission to pull off, something Senna was not known for. Though not without his part, this isn't all on Prost.

He didn't Senna Senna. He Schumacher'd Senna.

[A3]

I've stumbled into the nostalgia forum it seems.

 

[absinthedude]

I do not believe I've seen that angle before. I didn't tape that race live so I only have the BBC highlights show on tape and I am pretty sure it's not on there. Maybe wasn't even broadcast at the time. 

 

Of course with foreshortening caused by long lenses we need to be careful, but that angle does look more like Prost turned in on Senna by taking a *highly* unusual line....while he was not actually fully ahead of Senna. Who's was the corner? Senna could argue it was his, were he here to do so. 

 

I was never sure if it was deliberate on Prost's part because it's so unlike him....though it would be like him to execute a deliberate "back out or we crash" manoeuvre poorly.  

[Peeko]

There might be something to this, however we'll never find out if this was true because from the look of the video, Prost didn't even go for the corner and just turned into him!

Prost did turn in early, but not by much. We don't have that view showing another car taking the normal line so it may look worse than it is. Even if he doesn't turn in a fraction sooner than he did they still make contact unless Prost completely backs out of it. Prost said before the race he wasn't backing out of anything this time. Senna called his bluff, or so he thought.

Edited by Peeko, 05 January 2022 - 14:26.

[Peeko]

He didn't Senna Senna. He Schumacher'd Senna.

Hard to for Prost to Schumacher Senna if Schumacher had yet to Schumacher someone, no? What Schumacher did was Senna and Prost his opponents lol.

[LiJu914]

It merely reaffirms my view: Prost turned in early to cause the crash.

 

Yep...and I think it was already quite clear by watching the original broadcast footage.

 

https://youtu.be/5zc61isHXYA?t=343 (@ 5:47-5:48 one can see, that Prost´s car is basically aiming at the grass).

Edited by LiJu914, 05 January 2022 - 14:32.

[Singularity]

Senna once again left it to someone else to decide if there was going to be contact or not, problem was Prost was playing Senna's game too; he Senna'd Senna. Senna's pass attempt was overoptimistic and would have required Prost's 100% cooperation and complete submission to pull off, something Senna was not known for. Though not without his part, this isn't all on Prost.

He would have needed the opponents's cooperation, yes, that was true for all passes into that chicane (and there have been many). What he did not need was Prost turning into him. You point would have been more valid is Prost had ignored Senna and used the normal racing line. I don't see any excuses for Prost there, but I can certainly understand that Senna wanted to pass him. There was plenty on the line after all.

[absinthedude]

Prost did turn in early, but not by much. We don't have that view showing another car taking the normal line so it may look worse than it is. Even if he doesn't turn in a fraction sooner than he did they still make contact unless Prost completely backs out of it. Prost said before the race he wasn't backing out of anything this time. Senna called his bluff, or so he thought.

 

Yeah we really need to see the usual line through that corner from the same angle to draw much of a conclusion.

 

I still feel that it was Prost, perhaps poorly, doing his version of "back out or we crash". He just wasn't very good at it because it's not his thing. Senna had become the master of "back out or we crash" by that time. It *was* highly controversial. But so was this....big topic of conversation in the pub and at school where I was studying A-levels at the time. ISTR lots of people siding with James Hunt who had said something like "Prost was always going to turn in" during his live commentary. 

 

Nevertheless, this new angle is interesting. I hadn't realised that Alain hit Ayrton quite so hard. 

[Tony Mandara]

Nothing changes, for me. It was always obvious that Prost openly allowed the collision to happen. He had stated more than once (on camera) during the 1989 season that should Senna lunge and put them in a 'yield or we crash' situtation again, that he wasn't going to back out again. No news here, really.

Edited by Tony Mandara, 05 January 2022 - 14:36.

[A3]

Prost did turn in early, but not by much. We don't have that view showing another car taking the normal line so it may look worse than it is. Even if he doesn't turn in a fraction sooner than he did they still make contact unless Prost completely backs out of it. Prost said before the race he wasn't backing out of anything this time. Senna called his bluff, or so he thought.

 




Prost on his own halfway through the race.


Early in the race, Prost just starting to turn in.


And to give an impression of how much earlier Prost steered in.

Edited by A3, 05 January 2022 - 15:02.

[Rinehart]

Yup, that's ostensibly identical to MS on JV at Jerez in 1996. Only in 89 Balestre decided to punish the JV of the incident 

[Peeko]

 

Yes, I've done this exercise before and superimposed Prost's line from another part of the race with the line he took when they made contact. Although the lines are not the same, they are not that far apart.

Edited by Peeko, 05 January 2022 - 14:48.

[PayasYouRace]

Yup, that's ostensibly identical to MS on JV at Jerez in 1996. Only in 89 Balestre decided to punish the JV of the incident

If JV had cut the chicane (or been pushed started by the marshals) he might have been disqualified too.

[jonpollak]

Yup, that's ostensibly identical to MS on JV at Jerez in 1996. Only in 89 Balestre decided to punish the JV of the incident

97 but yeah
Jp

[Beri]

Prost did turn in early, but not by much. We don't have that view showing another car taking the normal line so it may look worse than it is. Even if he doesn't turn in a fraction sooner than he did they still make contact unless Prost completely backs out of it. Prost said before the race he wasn't backing out of anything this time. Senna called his bluff, or so he thought.

 

Wait, what? Prost would have needed 4WD to navigate the corner. He would have been off with 4 wheels on the inside of the apex had he not hit Senna. By modern standards; he would have been penalized to say the least.

[pRy]

The onboards tell the story really. This video is very informative especially the second part which compares the entry to the chicane on normal lap with the collision lap. Pay attention to the H on the steering wheel to an idea of steering angles.

 

[d246]

Hard to for Prost to Schumacher Senna if Schumacher had yet to Schumacher someone, no? What Schumacher did was Senna and Prost his opponents lol.

 

Yes, I think Schumacher Schuhmachered Hakkinen at Macau the following year?

[CSF]

Yup, that's ostensibly identical to MS on JV at Jerez in 1996. Only in 89 Balestre decided to punish the JV of the incident 

 

Senna wasn't punished for the incident.   

[ANF]

I have always considered Suzuka '89 a copy of Jerez '97, so this didn't change my view of the incident.

[A3]

Yes, I've done this exercise before and superimposed Prost's line from another part of the race with the line he took when they made contact. Although the lines are not the same, they are not that far apart.

Well, I think you're quite wrong when I look at the images.

[Izzyeviel]

tbh I was just happy Nannini won that I never cared for who crashed into who.

[as65p]

Paul Henri Cahier posted this on Twitter yesterday, having never seen this before, neither had I. It appears to be the infamous collision between Prost and Senna at Suzuka in 1989 from a different angle. In that spirit, I figured others might also find it interesting. Does it change or add to your existing view of the incident? 
 

Slightly depressing to think how many words and time I might have wasted over the years, arguing what is so obvious to see in that clip.  

 

[Colbul1]

Surely, going by this past seasons monstrous arguments, Senna is nowhere near the apex, the car on the outside is ahead, and so the fault lies entirely with Senna! 

[aportinga]

It merely reaffirms my view: Prost turned in early to cause the crash.

 

Yup... I'm a Prost guy and you nailed it!

[Peeko]

Well, I think you're quite wrong when I look at the images.

That's nice, but I don't care what you think.

 

I'm not saying Prost is not without guilt, but it was an ambitious attempt on Senna's part leaving the car being passed to decide to collide or not. Much like Mansell's attempt on Senna at Estoril the same year, it wasn't going to work unless the car in front allowed it to. The car behind has a role to play here, Ayrton came for pretty far back with a severely compromised line to try and make the corner. Senna was overambitious, and Prost overzealous.

Edited by Peeko, 05 January 2022 - 15:55.

[aportinga]

I think Red Bull fans will all agree Senna crashed into Prost. 

 

Nope - and I am a Prost fan. That move (by Prost) was as deliberate as any of Schumachers season ending slaps.

 

I've yet too see Max or Lewis do anything close.

[George Costanza]

I think Alain Prost turned too early but Ayrton was definitely quicker. I personally think Ayrton would have caught him eventually on the long straight. Sort of like Michael Schumacher in 1997 which Jacques was definitely quicker.

As for as Lewis and Max, I haven't seen anything like that... Yet. Unless you would count Silverstone accident which Max went flying into the barriers.

Edited by George Costanza, 05 January 2022 - 16:00.

[Baddoer]

That looks savage.