12308 replies to this topic

[HPT]

Charles’ latest IG story and demeanor are a bit negative where he used to be so positive. I fear Ferrari may be starting to lose their best asset soon if this continues. When Red Bull and Merc cars let the drivers down, the team shows a lot of support and encouragement. Not Ferrari. I thought one reason Arrivabene was pushed out because of his indecisiveness in backing their lead driver. When Binotto first took over he made it clear that Seb was the lead driver. Now he won’t do that with Charles, not overtly or even subtly. Charles is strong mentally but he is still young and he’s human. It comes across as Ferrari is hell bent on breaking him.

[RedRabbit]

Weren't we told that the PU2 spec would be able to run higher power modes because the PU1 had proven to be reliable?

It's clearly time to revert back to PU1 spec and stick with it for the rest of the season.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Weren't we told that the PU2 spec would be able to run higher power modes because the PU1 had proven to be reliable?

Yup, if the rumors were correct it should have more horsepower, apparently it came at the cost of reliability so the quick fix would probably be to tune it down again.

Since the gap with Honda is minimal (5 hp according to AMuS) I guess both PU’s will have about the same power output again, from now on.

[TradeMark]

Charles’ latest IG story and demeanor are a bit negative where he used to be so positive. I fear Ferrari may be starting to lose their best asset soon if this continues. When Red Bull and Merc cars let the drivers down, the team shows a lot of support and encouragement. Not Ferrari. I thought one reason Arrivabene was pushed out because of his indecisiveness in backing their lead driver. When Binotto first took over he made it clear that Seb was the lead driver. Now he won’t do that with Charles, not overtly or even subtly. Charles is strong mentally but he is still young and he’s human. It comes across as Ferrari is hell bent on breaking him.

Well I think he simply hasn't made that public because Sainz has never gotten in the way of Leclerc yet so why would he have to? As soon as that happens, Binotto will be prioritising Leclerc. If it was just a points gap between them okay, but Sainz simply can't get close to race pace of Leclerc, to the extent that Binotto hasn't even had ti clarify that Sainz is number 2.

[HPT]

Well I think he simply hasn't made that public because Sainz has never gotten in the way of Leclerc yet so why would he have to? As soon as that happens, Binotto will be prioritising Leclerc. If it was just a points gap between them okay, but Sainz simply can't get close to race pace of Leclerc, to the extent that Binotto hasn't even had ti clarify that Sainz is number 2.

Binotto said that about Seb before a wheel was even turned. And their actions during and after the race in Monaco speaks volumes

[SenorSjon]

Yup, if the rumors were correct it should have more horsepower, apparently it came at the cost of reliability so the quick fix would probably be to tune it down again.

Since the gap with Honda is minimal (5 hp according to AMuS) I guess both PU’s will have about the same power output again, from now on.

 

ERS deployment, amount of harvesting and amount of laps you can go full discharge before the battery runs out are also things to consider. Verstappen seems to be less comfortable on Q-laps compared to race laps, so the deficit in qualy isn't the one in the race. It seems RB have tire wear under control since their Imola update.

[BleuMurmure]

From Giuliano Duchessa’s article on Turrini’s blog, I get they will use a detuned map for 3-4 races (at least in the race, he says), while they develop the mid-long term solutions to have an aggressive second part of the season, solutions to be implemented before 1st Sep together with the new ERS.

This would be a sensible solution, but are they certain enough about the detuning increasing their reliability?

[dia6olo]

This would be a sensible solution, but are they certain enough about the detuning increasing their reliability?

In my opinion no, the other way around is the best approach, keep pushing even over pushing to find limits, work on those limits and move on to the next set of limits...

Not denying detuning could be sensible but to me it would also be settling for second best.

Edited by dia6olo, 15 June 2022 - 12:59.

[Cyanide]

They first and foremost need to optimize this car for races. Which means reliability and tyre wear.

 

I don't know if they've been going for quali setups or what's the deal, but they need to switch focus. Let Leclerc handle qualifying, he can do wonders there with a less than optimal car over one lap, but he certainly can't keep up with the Red Bulls over 50+ laps.

[RedRabbit]

In my opinion no, the other way around is the best approach, keep pushing even over pushing to find limits, work on those limits and move on to the next set of limits...
Not denying detuning could be sensible but to me it would also be settling for second best.

Well, before reliability issues they were leading both championships. Charles has already lost 2 wins from PU issues. It's far better to scale back to an already proven and successful spec which was winning races.

[Ferrari2183]

It's just Canada, Austria and Mexico left that are distinctively Red Bull tracks, ceteris paribus.

 

What I would do if I were Ferrari is take PU penalties at these very races (chances are slim for wins in any event it's just a pity that the Mexico race is very late - maybe substitute Spa for Mexico) and score as best you could because making your way through the field is very possible at these venues. If I count correctly that would mean Leclerc would have his pick of 4 power units for the remaining 11 races.

 

Edit: Just had a proper look at the component usage and only a penalty for a new turbo could happen in Canada. In Austria and Spa they can go crazy and start from the back. That would leave 3 power units for the 11 races as above. 

Edited by Ferrari2183, 15 June 2022 - 13:50.

[TheAviator]

They first and foremost need to optimize this car for races. Which means reliability and tyre wear.

I don't know if they've been going for quali setups or what's the deal, but they need to switch focus. Let Leclerc handle qualifying, he can do wonders there with a less than optimal car over one lap, but he certainly can't keep up with the Red Bulls over 50+ laps.

If they were concentrating on quali setup Sainz wouldnt be 4th in qualifying (and even further in races)

[ARTGP]

If they were concentrating on quali setup Sainz wouldnt be 4th in qualifying (and even further in races)

The other way to view that is Sainz just being completely off. He’s been miles off constantly and making mistakes all over in qualy. In other words, he’s driving poorly regardless of the setup.

Edited by ARTGP, 15 June 2022 - 13:41.

[TheAviator]

The other way to view that is Sainz just being completely off. He’s been miles off constantly and making mistakes all over in qualy. In other words, he’s driving poorly regardless of the setup.

Maybe, but Sainz has never had poor year. Even in Renault, with snappy back end, he was competing with Hulk and outqualified him on regular occasion.

This year he is literally nowhere. Like Kimi in Ferrari, just staying backwards.

[Ferrari2183]

Maybe, but Sainz has never had poor year. Even in Renault, with snappy back end, he was competing with Hulk and outqualified him on regular occasion.

This year he is literally nowhere. Like Kimi in Ferrari, just staying backwards.

 

Leclerc is not Hulkenberg. Sainz is being left in the dust by not only his teammate but the Red Bull drivers too. The only race where he was remotely on the pace was Bahrain and even that is a stretch. Other than that he hasn't been a match for those 3. They leave him in the dust every weekend.

[ARTGP]

Maybe, but Sainz has never had poor year. Even in Renault, with snappy back end, he was competing with Hulk and outqualified him on regular occasion.

This year he is literally nowhere. Like Kimi in Ferrari, just staying backwards.

 

He may not have had poor years previously, but he's also never driven a race winning and title challenging car before. It's possible he's simply poor now because the pressure of the car and his teammate has gotten to him. I don't think he's a match for Leclerc at the best of times, but I feel he's certainly driving below where he should be.   Pace aside, he's also just been very erratic and sloppy on the circuit. 

Edited by ARTGP, 15 June 2022 - 14:15.

[Astandahl]

He may not have had poor years previously, but he's also never driven a race winning and title challenging car before. It's possible he's simply poor now because the pressure of the car and his teammate has gotten to him. I don't think he's a match for Leclerc at the best of times, but I feel he's certainly driving below where he should be. 

I'm 100% sure that Sainz can do better, but at the same time you can see he was on the limit in quali. He tried to push and went over the limit.

 

Hopefully he will pick up the pace in the second half of the season because Ferrari needs him.

[oli4]

It's just Canada, Austria and Mexico left that are distinctively Red Bull tracks, ceteris paribus.

 

What I would do if I were Ferrari is take PU penalties at these very races (chances are slim for wins in any event it's just a pity that the Mexico race is very late - maybe substitute Spa for Mexico) and score as best you could because making your way through the field is very possible at these venues. If I count correctly that would mean Leclerc would have his pick of 4 power units for the remaining 11 races.

 

Edit: Just had a proper look at the component usage and only a penalty for a new turbo could happen in Canada. In Austria and Spa they can go crazy and start from the back. That would leave 3 power units for the 11 races as above. 

 

You can't take an engine penalty before the woes of the engine are fixed, no sense in doing that.

[Cyanide]

If they were concentrating on quali setup Sainz wouldnt be 4th in qualifying (and even further in races)

If he's also struggling more in the races, then that's a sign that the car is not optimized for races.

 

Both drivers have chewed through the tyres faster than Red Bull on more than a couple of weekends already.

[ForzaFerrari3928]

If he's also struggling more in the races, then that's a sign that the car is not optimized for races.

 

Both drivers have chewed through the tyres faster than Red Bull on more than a couple of weekends already.

 

We only had tire problems in Miami (only on the mediums as on hard Leclerc was matching Verstappen without any issues) and the sprint race in Imola (which I think was due to bad setup due to the rain in FP) and both of them were before the floor/wing upgrade in Spain. Before Spain, RB had worse tire wear in Bahrain and Australia. After the upgrade Leclerc had great tire management in Spain in the first stint and was managing his tires well in Baku. In fact Binotto said they were confident they could make the hard tires for Leclerc last the entire stint and still finish P1. 

[Ferrari2183]

You can't take an engine penalty before the woes of the engine are fixed, no sense in doing that.

Who’s to say they don’t blow up anyway before there is a fix? At least this way you try to maximise your chances by attempting to play it strategically (loading up on components) while remaining in the championship battle.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Who’s to say they don’t blow up anyway before there is a fix? At least this way you try to maximise your chances by attempting to play it strategically (loading up on components) while remaining in the championship battle.

What do you mean by loading up components? You can’t stockpile them anymore like McLaren did a few years ago.

[Ferrari2183]

What do you mean by loading up components? You can’t stockpile them anymore like McLaren did a few years ago.

Not suggesting that. I’m suggesting they take penalties at their weakest tracks which happen to be places where making your way through the field is easier. Canada, Austria, Spa and Mexico to name a few.

It can’t happen in Canada though because the worst that could happen is Leclerc taking a penalty for only the turbo.

[dia6olo]

Well, before reliability issues they were leading both championships. Charles has already lost 2 wins from PU issues. It's far better to scale back to an already proven and successful spec which was winning races.

That's a valid point, however, since then a lot has changed and Ferrari started slipping before the PU issues.

In my opinion, reverting to what they had even if it cures the PU issues will make little to no impact on Red Bulls lead, the damage has now been done, I am of course aware that pushing the PU's will likely result in an even lesser impact on the Red Bull lead, but all things considered I see it as an opportunity to progress if not for this year for next year by learning as much as possible, I don't feel that will be the case if they revert to playing it safe were they can obviously still learn but not as much.

 

Basically the way I see it is that without a miracle (RBR implosion) it doesn't matter which way Ferrari go they are not catching RBR. So why not choose to stress test everything, put fixes in place that are fixable, learn as much as possible and move everything forward so as to have a much better understanding of what they have be it for the back end of this year or even next year? Heck as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter if it even costs them second place to Mercedes if something constructive comes out of it.

Edited by dia6olo, 15 June 2022 - 18:11.

[sourav1480]

What do you mean by loading up components? You can’t stockpile them anymore like McLaren did a few years ago.

Can't we take penalty and stockpile them? Say in next 3 consecutive races we take penalties and stockpile 3 new engines for the whole season ?

[Ivanhoe]

Can't we take penalty and stockpile them? Say in next 3 consecutive races we take penalties and stockpile 3 new engines for the whole season ?

Yeah you can, you just can’t stockpile in one race weekend, like McLaren/Honda did in the past.

[SenorSjon]

We only had tire problems in Miami (only on the mediums as on hard Leclerc was matching Verstappen without any issues) and the sprint race in Imola (which I think was due to bad setup due to the rain in FP) and both of them were before the floor/wing upgrade in Spain. Before Spain, RB had worse tire wear in Bahrain and Australia. After the upgrade Leclerc had great tire management in Spain in the first stint and was managing his tires well in Baku. In fact Binotto said they were confident they could make the hard tires for Leclerc last the entire stint and still finish P1.

The RB gets lighter every race and I believe Ferrari PU2 has been put in higher modes than they wanted to keep up on the straights.

[Massa]

Charles’ latest IG story and demeanor are a bit negative where he used to be so positive. I fear Ferrari may be starting to lose their best asset soon if this continues. When Red Bull and Merc cars let the drivers down, the team shows a lot of support and encouragement. Not Ferrari. I thought one reason Arrivabene was pushed out because of his indecisiveness in backing their lead driver. When Binotto first took over he made it clear that Seb was the lead driver. Now he won’t do that with Charles, not overtly or even subtly. Charles is strong mentally but he is still young and he’s human. It comes across as Ferrari is hell bent on breaking him.

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

[ForzaFerrari3928]

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

 

Exactly this. Before 2021, even Max was seeing tons of DNFs due to reliability but he kept his focus and waited for his chance. Of course he's disappointed as he (and perhaps most of us) thought this would be his year after the first five races of the season as I think this season has shown he's ready to fight for the title. Once the wins start coming back and reliability issues are fixed, he'll know Ferrari is the place to be as they will be in the hunt right up until 2026. The car design base is solid in all aspects and if not this year then hopefully next year a title challenge is coming up as we have all the right pieces in place and just need to iron out some kinks. 

[dia6olo]

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

100%, you can see it in his body language, he is Ferrari through and through.

Truth is with the exception of one or two, no one leaves Ferrari of their own choosing they are pushed out.

Edited by dia6olo, 15 June 2022 - 20:10.

[AlexS]

Frustration can change things very fast. 

[vlado]

LEC will certainly be the "pole position" champion this year... 

[Wuzak]

It's just Canada, Austria and Mexico left that are distinctively Red Bull tracks, ceteris paribus.

 

I'm not so sure about Canada. Sure it has a couple of straights with DRS, but it also has the twisty first sector. In many ways similar to Jeddah, and Leclerc lost that by 0.5s.

 

Austria, maybe.

 

Mexico is interesting, as it is maximum downforce track! The supposed weakness of the Ferrari in drag will be somewhat offset by the low air pressure due to altitude. Remember that they basically run the Monaco package in Mexico.

 

(As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the high altitude air means that the porpoising reduces or disappears.)

 

But Ferrari now have their lower downforce package that should negate much of the hypothetical Red Bull advantage at these tracks.

[Cyanide]

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

It'd be naive from his side not to consider other options. This is a business relationship, not a marriage with kids and if the business doesn't work out, you move on.

He certainly should not stick around if the car can't compete for championships.

[Ferrari2183]

I'm not so sure about Canada. Sure it has a couple of straights with DRS, but it also has the twisty first sector. In many ways similar to Jeddah, and Leclerc lost that by 0.5s.

Austria, maybe.

Mexico is interesting, as it is maximum downforce track! The supposed weakness of the Ferrari in drag will be somewhat offset by the low air pressure due to altitude. Remember that they basically run the Monaco package in Mexico.

(As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the high altitude air means that the porpoising reduces or disappears.)

But Ferrari now have their lower downforce package that should negate much of the hypothetical Red Bull advantage at these tracks.

Yes, Ferrari now have a lower downforce package but my concern with those tracks is related to length of straight coupled with double even triple DRS zones in the case of Austria. Ferrari will struggle to race Red Bull under those conditions so it’s my contention they take power unit penalties at those very tracks and Spa and make use of those straights and liberal DRS to fight through the field.

At least that way you minimise point losses and give yourself a fighting chance in the championship by having stockpiled power unit elements even if those elements are PU1 with established reliability.

Edit: Regarding Mexico, they only run a Monaco package there due to the altitude and the air being so thin. At a normal altitude no team would even attempt running a Monaco package as it would be suicide. Anyway, the altitude is the same for everybody so it may make an efficient car even better.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 16 June 2022 - 04:22.

[sourav1480]

So apparently it was the exhaust valve failing due to overheating. Valve failure leading to metal debris entering the turbine and killing the TC also. How come this wasn't simulated on the test bench !! Maybe a third party supplier issue  

 

 

Elsewhere; Marc Gene confirming what we suspected: https://scuderiafans...bility-updates/

Edited by sourav1480, 16 June 2022 - 04:36.

[Ivanhoe]

Elsewhere; Marc Gene confirming what we suspected: https://scuderiafans...bility-updates/

As I thought, same spec PU was run harder. Bringing reliability upgrades is a heavy procedure, which involves a well documented request on the need for a reliability upgrade and the fix for it, as well as the consent of all other manufacturers.

[sourav1480]

As I thought, same spec PU was run harder. Bringing reliability upgrades is a heavy procedure, which involves a well documented request on the need for a reliability upgrade and the fix for it, as well as the consent of all other manufacturers.

Now that we have had in-race failures, reliability fix "may be" a bit easier to pass through ??

Edited by sourav1480, 16 June 2022 - 06:10.

[vlado]

So apparently it was the exhaust valve failing due to overheating. Valve failure leading to metal debris entering the turbine and killing the TC also. How come this wasn't simulated on the test bench !! Maybe a third party supplier issue  

 

 

 

Isn't that sort of good news? 

[Ivanhoe]

Interesting article from the race.com on Ferrari's upgrades and reliability issues.

[Sash1]

So apparently it was the exhaust valve failing due to overheating. Valve failure leading to metal debris entering the turbine and killing the TC also. How come this wasn't simulated on the test bench !! Maybe a third party supplier issue  

 

 

 

Why did it overheat? You state it was overheating, so overheating is the main issue. That could be a cooling issue in that part of the head or a design issue related to combustion behaviour. Is it a design issue, environmental influence, fuel issue, cooling fluid issue, something on the outside of the head causing a temp spike? Too easy to blame it on a valve which is run outside of the expected parameters.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Regarding Mexico, they only run a Monaco package there due to the altitude and the air being so thin. At a normal altitude no team would even attempt running a Monaco package as it would be suicide. Anyway, the altitude is the same for everybody so it may make an efficient car even better.

I heard Scarbs telling Ferrari has a small turbo, would that be an advantage or disadvantage on higher altitude tracks like Mexico and Brazil?

[TheAviator]

I heard Scarbs telling Ferrari has a small turbo, would that be an advantage or disadvantage on higher altitude tracks like Mexico and Brazil?

Scarbs has no idea what Ferrari has or doesnt have.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Scarbs has no idea what Ferrari has or doesnt have.

You have no idea what Scarbs know or doesn’t know, but thanks for your meaningless reply, anyway.

[HPT]

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

I said I fear he will leave, not that he is leaving. and besides, how can you say never? I bet before 2010 many were saying Hamilton would never leave McLaren either.

[oli4]

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

 

Exactly this. And there is no place for him to go. Red Bull don't need him, they have their nr 1 and very good nr 2. Mercedes? They have Russel who's constantly outperforming the so called goat. All other teams are midfield teams.

[athlon]

Exactly this. And there is no place for him to go. Red Bull don't need him, they have their nr 1 and very good nr 2. Mercedes? They have Russel who's constantly outperforming the so called goat. All other teams are midfield teams.

 

He must stick to Ferrari despite the difficulties. This team gives him stability, we don't know what'll happen with RBR when VW buy them?

[dia6olo]

Scarbs has no idea what Ferrari has or doesnt have.

It took us 8 races to try and work out if Ferrari have a split turbo or not, I'm still not sure but think I recently read somewhere they don't?

Anyway my point was that literally people in the know don't know but somehow the likes of Scarbs and one or two other "know it all" are all knowing  

Edited by dia6olo, 16 June 2022 - 10:18.

[GentlemanDriver091]

It took us 8 races to try and work out if Ferrari have a split turbo or not, I'm still not sure but think I recently read somewhere they don't?
Anyway my point was that literally people in the know don't know but somehow Scarbs is apparently all knowing

It doesn’t really matter if Scarbs was right or wrong, because my original question was if a smaller turbo is an advantage or a disadvantage on high altitude tracks.

[Ferrari2183]

I heard Scarbs telling Ferrari has a small turbo, would that be an advantage or disadvantage on higher altitude tracks like Mexico and Brazil?

I would think the compressor matters more than the size of the turbo provided the turbo can deal with the added air volume. It’s the compressor that delivers air to the engine.