12308 replies to this topic

[sourav1480]

vlado, on 16 Jun 2022 - 06:30, said:

Isn't that sort of good news? 

 

Good and bad...good that we know that the cause and "maybe" its not that difficult to rectify...but bad as these components would have already been produced and assembled into the next PU. So potentially we maybe carrying the same reliability issue for many more races.

[sourav1480]

Sash1, on 16 Jun 2022 - 07:13, said:

Why did it overheat? You state it was overheating, so overheating is the main issue. That could be a cooling issue in that part of the head or a design issue related to combustion behaviour. Is it a design issue, environmental influence, fuel issue, cooling fluid issue, something on the outside of the head causing a temp spike? Too easy to blame it on a valve which is run outside of the expected parameters.

 

"Overheating" may not be the correct word..maybe they meant just exhaust heat; as I am not a native Italian speaker...... had to use google translate.

 

Could be that the exhaust valve material was not rated for such aggressive throttle mappings and high ambient temperature.

[dia6olo]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 10:17, said:

It doesn’t really matter if Scarbs was right or wrong, because my original question was if a smaller turbo is an advantage or a disadvantage on high altitude tracks.

Yes I know, I wasn't having a pop at you but at Scarbs.

That said I can see how it easily comes across as it was aimed at you but honestly it wasn't.

Regarding the turbo, we know that their purpose is to compress air into the engine, I guess theoretically a smaller one could generate better compression, it's easier to compress a smaller volume than a larger one but of course there are other factors.

The one real issue with turbo's at least F1 turbos is that they can get mighty hot we are talking glowing red and I guess at least in theory a smaller turbo could suffer more in terms of heat generated even if potentially it could in theory also generate better compression.

How that would play out at varying altitudes because of the varying air densities, you'r guess is as good as mine 

Also bear in mind that what I have just written I have literally just read into and have absolutely zero knowledge of turbos 

[Massa]

Cyanide, on 16 Jun 2022 - 04:14, said:

It'd be naive from his side not to consider other options. This is a business relationship, not a marriage with kids and if the business doesn't work out, you move on.

He certainly should not stick around if the car can't compete for championships.

Consider what ?

Mercedes ? It will be Russel team
Red Bull ? LOL

If you really think Leclerc will consider leaving the most iconic team of this sport, a top team able to fight for championship most of the time, who gave him everything a driver can dream for..

By the way, few weeks ago he said he want to end his career here.

[GentlemanDriver091]

There is another conspiracy theory going round about a new fuel derivative, introduced in Spain, that hit Ferrari more then other engine suppliers: https://www.quotidia...tombazis-5.7529

Edit: TL;DR Ferrari was rumored to vaporize Ethanol, which meant they were effectively running on 5% Ethanol instead of the required 10%. On 16 May the FIA ​​issued a “clarifying” directive on the biofuel component to be used, since then all Ferrari engines started to suffer.

Edited by GentlemanDriver091, 16 June 2022 - 11:00.

[TheAviator]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 07:35, said:

You have no idea what Scarbs know or doesn’t know, but thanks for your meaningless reply, anyway.

Anytime mate.

[ingegnere]

sourav1480, on 16 Jun 2022 - 04:35, said:

So apparently it was the exhaust valve failing due to overheating. Valve failure leading to metal debris entering the turbine and killing the TC also. How come this wasn't simulated on the test bench !! Maybe a third party supplier issue

https://www.youtube....h?v=Q8H9fxtU25g

Elsewhere; Marc Gene confirming what we suspected: https://scuderiafans...bility-updates/

I wouldn’t put much faith in what they’re saying because right off the bat they say Ferrari put out a statement that the problem centred in the cylinder head. I didn’t see any statement from Ferrari to that effect so I’m guessing they took what was written in it.Motorsport.com—that claimed the same thing—and ran with it.

They’re saying that the engine uses 3 injection phases: a first one for ignition pre-chamber; a second to feed the power stroke; and a third phase as the exhaust valve is open that effectively is wasted except that it cools the valves. They claim that on circuits where they’re close to using the full 110 kg fuel allocation, the 3rd phase of injection is leaned out to save fuel. This, they claim, caused the exhaust valve(s) to overheat and fail.

I suspect this of all conjecture—really don’t know how they would know such details—also because the pre-chamber system they describe is the Mahle Jet ignition design which I would think they’ve done away with this year as they call their new engine Superfast.

Edited by ingegnere, 16 June 2022 - 11:21.

[ingegnere]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 10:54, said:

There is another conspiracy theory going round about a new fuel derivative, introduced in Spain, that hit Ferrari more then other engine suppliers: https://www.quotidia...tombazis-5.7529

Edit: TL;DR Ferrari was rumored to vaporize Ethanol, which meant they were effectively running on 5% Ethanol instead of the required 10%. On 16 May the FIA ​​issued a “clarifying” directive on the biofuel component to be used, since then all Ferrari engines started to suffer.

Surprised they aren’t also claiming that 5G towers are causing COVID. 😉

[gramsy1977]

ingegnere, on 16 Jun 2022 - 11:21, said:

Surprised they aren’t also claiming that 5G towers are causing COVID.

Yeah because Tombazis that was evicted as a failure from Ferrari, not wanting thereafter Ferrari to succeed, that would be science fiction

[ingegnere]

gramsy1977, on 16 Jun 2022 - 11:50, said:

Yeah because Tombazis that was evicted as a failure from Ferrari, not wanting thereafter Ferrari to succeed, that would be science fiction

Tombazis, probably not… but expecting the ethanol to evaporate out of solution and carrying 120 kg of fuel when the limit is 110 kg probably is.

[GentlemanDriver091]

ingegnere, on 16 Jun 2022 - 12:41, said:

Tombazis, probably not… but expecting the ethanol to evaporate out of solution and carrying 120 kg of fuel when the limit is 110 kg probably is.

I can’t even find any confirmation of that FIA directive either, to be honest. Also, there isn’t any indication Ferrari lost power since Spain.

[ForzaFerrari3928]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 13:02, said:

I can’t even find any confirmation of that FIA directive either, to be honest. Also, there isn’t any indication Ferrari lost power since Spain.

Looks like Turini spewing nonsense as usual. I have not seen even a single media personality mention this directive. Also no team would try fuel flow or any other fuel related shenanigans when PU is frozen as any loss of power would mean four years of pain.

[MaroF1]

Massa, on 15 Jun 2022 - 19:45, said:

.



Leclerc will never leave Ferrari. He is a Ferrari driver since Jules Bianchi spoke to Nicolas Todt about Charles not having money to continue racing.

I don't know why some people try to inspect Instagram story and then make a story about nothing

Of course he is negative, the last 3 races have been awful. Does not mean he thinks he will leave.

It's like with relationship, sometimes there is rough times and it's does not mean there will be divorce.

Didnt Massa, Kimi, Alonso and Vettel all said they wanted to retire in red? Everyone loves Ferrari, the brand, the history and what this team represents. Leclerc is definitely a Ferrarista but the most important thing to him at the end of the day is his career and if Ferrari keep on failing, he will look somwhere else, its just the way it is. If they keep destroying his chance he will lose all his interest, its just the way it is. Let's hope that never happens, cause he is the right man to be Ferrari's 10th World Champion.

Edited by MaroF1, 16 June 2022 - 13:56.

[gramsy1977]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 13:02, said:

I can’t even find any confirmation of that FIA directive either, to be honest. Also, there isn’t any indication Ferrari lost power since Spain.

Spanish Grand Prix Event Notes
9) Specific Technical Procedures
Please note that from 2022 the FIA have introduced an Appendix Index File which contains all the
relevant and active Appendix documents, Technical and Sporting Directives. The latest version of
this Index file (“2022 Formula 1 Appendix – iss 6 – 2022-05-16.xlsx”) and all relevant documents can
be found on the FIA SFTP site.

Nevertheless the last directives mentioned in the FIA site are the ones from April. Who knows...

[Cacarella]

MaroF1, on 16 Jun 2022 - 13:56, said:

Didnt Massa, Kimi, Alonso and Vettel all said they wanted to retire in red?

Didn't Massa, Kim, Alonso and Vetted eventually get moved out by Ferrari?

Maybe Alonso was the only one that was involved in the decision?

[ARTGP]

MaroF1, on 16 Jun 2022 - 13:56, said:

Didnt Massa, Kimi, Alonso and Vettel all said they wanted to retire in red? Everyone loves Ferrari, the brand, the history and what this team represents. Leclerc is definitely a Ferrarista but the most important thing to him at the end of the day is his career and if Ferrari keep on failing, he will look somwhere else, its just the way it is. If they keep destroying his chance he will lose all his interest, its just the way it is. Let's hope that never happens, cause he is the right man to be Ferrari's 10th World Champion.

 

We are 6 months into an entire new era for F1 and for Ferrari. If Leclerc is ready to bail now, then I'd question his mental strength. As someone pointed out earlier, Verstappen had to drive a Renault PU from 2016-2018 and has already retired from more races in that era, than Hamilton in his entire career if I'm not mistaken...

 

Leclerc will be fine I think. You worry too much. 

Edited by ARTGP, 16 June 2022 - 17:01.

[ingegnere]

ForzaFerrari3928, on 16 Jun 2022 - 13:21, said:

Looks like Turini spewing nonsense as usual. I have not seen even a single media personality mention this directive. Also no team would try fuel flow or any other fuel related shenanigans when PU is frozen as any loss of power would mean four years of pain.

My own Turini-like baseless possible explanation for LEC’s ICE failure hoping to reassure myself about this being a one-off: what if, after the turbo failed in Spain—a one-off also but explained, apparently—the engine ran with lower back pressure causing it to run lean and damaged the exhaust valve(s). This went undetected and then the failure occurred in Baku.

Almost plausible except all the other issues with customer engines would indicate it’s not so simple an issue.

[Ferrari2183]

Well there goes the season… FIA will force ride height adjustments based on bottoming and porpoising.

[Cliff]

Ferrari2183, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:28, said:

Well there goes the season… FIA will force ride height adjustments based on bottoming and porpoising.

It’s not that black and white. RB is bottoming out a lot as well. And raising the ride hight will probably affect every car differently. Raising it 1cm will cost every team different amounts of laptime.

[Garagista]

Everything goes wrong for Ferrari.

That Kimi 1 point championship seems like drained all the good luck forever...

[Ferrari2183]

Cliff, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:33, said:

It’s not that black and white. RB is bottoming out a lot as well. And raising the ride hight will probably affect every car differently. Raising it 1cm will cost every team different amounts of laptime.

Please, this is wishful thinking. Red Bull were bottoming waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy less than Ferrari around Baku. Watch the onboards and listen where and when the plank strikes. Red Bull are gonna win this at a canter now.

[Ali623]

Cliff, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:33, said:

It’s not that black and white. RB is bottoming out a lot as well. And raising the ride hight will probably affect every car differently. Raising it 1cm will cost every team different amounts of laptime.

 

Red Bull had their car much higher than others (at least Mercedes anyway) in Baku didn't they? Were still very quick.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Cliff, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:33, said:

It’s not that black and white. RB is bottoming out a lot as well. And raising the ride hight will probably affect every car differently. Raising it 1cm will cost every team different amounts of laptime.

This isn’t so much about bottoming out, but about porpoising as well.

I guess Sainz won’t be welcome in the factory anymore, from now on?

[ForzaFerrari3928]

GentlemanDriver091, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:44, said:

This isn’t so much about bottoming out, but about porpoising as well.

I guess Sainz won’t be welcome in the factory anymore, from now on?

Sainz knows with the current car he cannot match Leclerc so he's using this porpoising issue all the time and keeps saying car is undriveable and get the team to change setups that favor him more in order to get closer to Leclerc in the second half of the season.

Edited by ForzaFerrari3928, 16 June 2022 - 17:49.

[Cacarella]

Ferrari2183, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:28, said:

Well there goes the season… FIA will force ride height adjustments based on bottoming and porpoising.

Can you please quote where you read this?

I heard they were going to monitor the vertical g loads of the cars and have the teams that fall foul of a set threshold to tune out the bouncing until acceptable. If they can't tune it out they will have to raise the car by a cm at a time until they meet the threshold.

They haven't even disclosed the threshold or identified if Ferrari falls foul of it.

Chill out man.

[Ferrari2183]

Cacarella, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:57, said:

Can you please quote where you read this?

I heard they were going to monitor the vertical g loads of the cars and have the teams that fall foul of a set threshold to tune out the bouncing until acceptable. If they can't tune it out they will have to raise the car by a cm at a time until they meet the threshold.

They haven't even disclosed the threshold or identified if Ferrari falls foul of it.

Chill out man.

You just wrote a whole paragraph on what I said in one sentence.

[Cacarella]

Ferrari2183, on 16 Jun 2022 - 18:04, said:

You just wrote a whole paragraph on what I said in one sentence.

No not at all. You started with "There goes the season" and wrote it in the Ferrari car thread so you're implying that this will effect Ferrari adversely.

[gpking]

https://twitter.com/...brSLL6ZrQw&s=19

[ForzaFerrari3928]

gpking, on 16 Jun 2022 - 18:38, said:

https://twitter.com/...brSLL6ZrQw&s=19

 

Its a sensible choice as overtaking on this track is not too difficult. With the excellent traction Ferrari has coming out of the last hairpin he should be able to setup overtakes easily and can easily finish P4 or P3 starting from P10 and if there's a SC at the right time maybe even higher.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Makes sense. IMHO they should focus 100% on the race, even if that means that they have to start from P12-P13.

A podium is definitely attainable.

[nemanja]

https://twitter.com/...xuiHrFKXiWPpEmw

 

Identical in design butt different in strength to try to minimize porpoising (Changed is the type of carbon used and the different arrangement of the fibres. In Spain, in fact, the carbon fibres that are mono-directional were oriented longitudinally to the car, while in Montreal they became perpendicular with a rotation of 90 degrees.)

[athlon]

How could this new directive affect the car?

[Astandahl]

athlon, on 16 Jun 2022 - 19:27, said:

How could this new directive affect the car?

Doesn't really matter, as the championship is long gone.

Leclerc will have to use at least PU 4 and 5 which means two more big penalties and is already 34 points behind.

[Ijsman]

athlon, on 16 Jun 2022 - 19:27, said:

How could this new directive affect the car?

0.5 sec loss over a lap. Hope it won't affect anything, but the car is bouncy to be fast, so that can only mean one thing.

[Cacarella]

I suspect the threshold to be set at a point to stop what we saw Mercedes doing in Baku. They openly admitted they could've dialed it out of the car but chose performance over driver comfort. I don't expect Ferrari to fall foul of the threshold. My best guess anyway....

Edited by Cacarella, 16 June 2022 - 19:53.

[dia6olo]

Ali623, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:43, said:

Red Bull had their car much higher than others (at least Mercedes anyway) in Baku didn't they? Were still very quick.

Over the weekend gone, Horner made a comment regarding Mercedes, their porpoising and their drivers complaining about the health issues associated with it, I can't recall the exact words but it was something along the lines of they kind of only have themselves to blame and that they are now running even lower to the ground than we (RBR) are.

 

From that I read that RBR are running pretty low and I recall them scraping the floor pretty much throughout the entire opening race on the straights.

Those anyone have official data on the different car ride heights the various teams are running or is this just one big perception based on RBR always having had high ride height because of their high rake days... Have people forgotten we are in a new era of ground effect were any extra ride height is the opposite of what the teams are looking for... Are we making this stuff up because someone said something or thinks they've seen something and everyone is just going with it... Has some pundit looked at pictures and decided that based on a very rough look at a cars outer floor edges distances to the ground they know exactly whats going on underneath in terms of real ride height...

 

Just to clarify that I'm not having a pop here but just asking the question/s because I get the impression there's a lot of stuff we read in the comments and not just the comments but from so called people in the know/experts that is literally made up.

Edited by dia6olo, 17 June 2022 - 10:06.

[athlon]

Astandahl, on 16 Jun 2022 - 19:30, said:

Doesn't really matter, as the championship is long gone.

Leclerc will have to use at least PU 4 and 5 which means two more big penalties and is already 34 points behind.

I'm asking this not really because of the championship but this has been a great car that is capable of fighting for race victories. I want this to follow

[SCUDmissile]

Fingers crossed I actually think we will be ok.

[prty]

ForzaFerrari3928, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:49, said:

Sainz knows with the current car he cannot match Leclerc so he's using this porpoising issue all the time and keeps saying car is undriveable and get the team to change setups that favor him more in order to get closer to Leclerc in the second half of the season.

He also said that with the same settings, his car was porpoising but not Leclerc's. Which is interesting if true.

[ARTGP]

prty, on 16 Jun 2022 - 23:32, said:

He also said that with the same settings, his car was porpoising but not Leclerc's. Which is interesting if true.

 

I'm not sure how valid it is, but I've heard it....but as you know, the trailing driver does tend to look for excuses...

[Raest]

Sainz should put a sock in it. It wasn't enough that he was ferking up on track now he's taken it off track too

[Heyli]

prty, on 16 Jun 2022 - 23:32, said:

He also said that with the same settings, his car was porpoising but not Leclerc's. Which is interesting if true.

Perhaps he had a bigger lunch? 

[Ferrari2183]

Raest, on 17 Jun 2022 - 11:03, said:

Sainz should put a sock in it. It wasn't enough that he was ferking up on track now he's taken it off track too

 

I have previously stated that I was indifferent to Sainz but he is really grating my nuts at the moment.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Ferrari2183, on 17 Jun 2022 - 11:43, said:

I have previously stated that I was indifferent to Sainz but he is really grating my nuts at the moment.

I already noticed in his STR days that Sainz can be really toxic in a team environment.

He truly believes he’s among the best drivers out there and when he doesn’t win, there must be something wrong.

I doubt Sainz suffered more from porpoising compared to Leclerc, but he could have a hidden agenda, as already suggested by AMuS.

[Seanspeed]

Cyanide, on 15 Jun 2022 - 15:12, said:

If he's also struggling more in the races, then that's a sign that the car is not optimized for races.

 

Both drivers have chewed through the tyres faster than Red Bull on more than a couple of weekends already.

The lack of performance in Baku had nothing to do with tire wear.  The Red Bull was simply a faster car on that track, as many suspected it might be going into the weekend.  

 

Sainz's performance in qualifying was more or less what we saw in the race.  There was no swing backwards or anything.  It might appear that this happened with Leclerc, but that was more that he simply overperformed in qualifying than anything. 

 

Ferrari have only 'struggled' on tire wear at two race weekends, and even in Miami, it was really only with just one tire. 

[KWSN - DSM]

Sainz may be lining up not to get an extension at the end of his current deal, though to be fair to Ferrari they do like to hold on to drivers way past when they should have been dropped.

[ARTGP]

Sainz is going to clean up his game eventually. Most drivers do. he’s definetly capable of better than the messy start he’s had.

[BoDarvelle]

Raest, on 17 Jun 2022 - 11:03, said:

Sainz should put a sock in it. It wasn't enough that he was ferking up on track now he's taken it off track too

 

If I was Matty I'd be tempted to disable is access card.

[ingegnere]

ingegnere, on 16 Jun 2022 - 17:22, said:

My own Turini-like baseless possible explanation for LEC’s ICE failure hoping to reassure myself about this being a one-off: what if, after the turbo failed in Spain—a one-off also but explained, apparently—the engine ran with lower back pressure causing it to run lean and damaged the exhaust valve(s). This went undetected and then the failure occurred in Baku.

Almost plausible except all the other issues with customer engines would indicate it’s not so simple an issue.

^^ what he said 😉 …

https://twitter.com/...zVRKH4Um-0cVq6Q

[sourav1480]

http://www.gptoday.c...urb_porpoising/

Was this necessary !! If drivers can't cope they can leave this sport...as simple as that. F1 is becoming a joke.