19 replies to this topic

[taran]

The deposit arrived in 1999.  And that's why we've had I think one new entrant since then that has managed to stick (and I reckon even that is only temporary).  For instance the Phoenix team flew to the Malaysian GP in 2002 with actual cars and the FIA barred them because they had not paid the $48m deposit.  So you have an instance there of the bond actively preventing a team that was ready, willing, and able to race.

 

 

I am not sure that's a good example. Wasn't Phoenix just another scam by Tom Walkinshaw after he basically ran out of money to run Arrows properly? It's been 20 years but IIRC, newly created Phoenix (headed by an old buddy of Tom W.) bought some remaining parts from the Prost fire sale, cobbled them together with parts from the Arrows three seater cars and tried to start and park under the Prost entry license so they could get prize money owed to Prost GP to finance his drowning Arrows team.

 

The FIA quickly shut that scheme down and Phoenix never raced and Arrows collapsed soon after.
 

[absinthedude]

I don't think Phoenix was ever actually a viable concern. They'd bought some of the assets of the Prost team but did not buy the team or it's entry. Much like Andrea Moda buying the Coloni chassis, and being turned away before entering as a new team in 1992 (and promptly becoming a scandal himself). 

 

I'm not sure what Phoenix were actually trying to do but they didn't actually have a full race team, manufacturing facilities, design facilities etc. They had a few engineers and a drivers (Mazzacane and Marques I think, lower midfield pay drivers)....but the car was just a Prost from 2001 with a cobbled together back end and engine nicked from the Arrows two seater demonstration cars. Those engines and rear ends were never supposed to be cobbled onto the back of the Prost and never supposed to race in anything. it is highly unlikely those cars could have even done 10 laps in practise let alone qualify and race.

 

Phoenix was not a viable, ready to go racing team.

 

Michael Andretti and Andretti Autosport/Andretti Global will be far more serious about it....given the chance...

[William Hunt]

I am not sure that's a good example. Wasn't Phoenix just another scam by Tom Walkinshaw after he basically ran out of money to run Arrows properly? It's been 20 years but IIRC, newly created Phoenix (headed by an old buddy of Tom W.) bought some remaining parts from the Prost fire sale, cobbled them together with parts from the Arrows three seater cars and tried to start and park under the Prost entry license so they could get prize money owed to Prost GP to finance his drowning Arrows team.

 

The FIA quickly shut that scheme down and Phoenix never raced and Arrows collapsed soon after.
 

 

Phoenix was indeed the old Prost cars from the year before yes and I think it was Walkinshaw who had bought it. It was some kind of cheap scheme from him The cars did travel to the first 2 GP's with the bare minimum of mechanics to run them. 
Officially a certain Charles Nickelson was the director of Phoenix and Walkinshaw would assist in running that team but it was generally believed that he was just a straw man for the real owner: Walkinshaw.
They tried to enter in 2003 (the next season) as well but failed.

Tarso Marquez and Gaston Mazzacane were 'hired' as the drivers; not exactly an impressive line-up. Still I hated that Ligier / Prost dissapeared from the grid, those blue cars were always nice to watch and they ran so many good (mostly) French drivers in their history: Laffite, Pironi, Arnoux etc... so I wanted the Phoenix cars on the grid but in all honesty: it wasn't a very serious effort and seemed rather dodgy.

Their plan was probably to run the cars on a shoestring budget so they could sell the team later with a profit. 

Edited by William Hunt, 22 February 2022 - 15:50.

[midgrid]

Phoenix was indeed the old Prost cars from the year before yes and I think it was Walkinshaw who had bought it. It was some kind of cheap scheme from him The cars did travel to the first 2 GP's with the bare minimum of mechanics to run them. 
Officially a certain Charles Nickelson was the director of Phoenix and Walkinshaw would assist in running that team but it was generally believed that he was just a straw man for the real owner: Walkinshaw.
They tried to enter in 2003 (the next season) as well but failed.

Tarso Marquez and Gaston Mazzacane were 'hired' as the drivers; not exactly an impressive line-up. Still I hated that Ligier / Prost dissapeared from the grid, those blue cars were always nice to watch and they ran so many good (mostly) French drivers in their history: Laffite, Pironi, Arnoux etc... so I wanted the Phoenix cars on the grid but in all honesty: it wasn't a very serious effort and seemed rather dodgy.

Their plan was probably to run the cars on a shoestring budget so they could sell the team later with a profit. 

 

I believe it was related to a dispute between Walkinshaw (Arrows) and Paul Stoddart (Minardi) regarding Prost's demise: Prost finished ninth in the 2001 WCC, Arrows 10th and Minardi 11th, IIRC Walkinshaw argued that the prize money for ninth should be given to Arrows (i.e. bumping Arrows and Minardi up one place each), whereas Stoddart argued that it should be split equally between the two teams below.  Was Phoenix a mechanism to ensure that Walkinshaw received Prost's prize money, one way or another?

[danmills]

Just saw this noted in an Andretti post and thought it warranted its own thread. I had never heard of this project nor realised how far it actually got to have arrived in various parts at several race weekends.

The following link is an absolute blast of a read.

A bit gutted there are no pics of the hybrid car. Surely something must exist, somewhere, or if we were able to track down some old Arrows crew. Even Mazzacane responded via twitter!

https://www.unracedf...ailed-f1-entry/

[Pete_f1]

I remember them! Never stood a chance in the then very stuck up world of F1!

[pacificquay]

It was a Tom Walkinshaw scam to try to start then retire early and syphon funds into his struggling Arrows team

[FirstnameLastname]

Some great stories about the end of Prost and Arrows GP. Love those sorts of F1 stories.

The arrows chassis ended up as a minardi, and later was one of the Super Aguri cars. Could probably win an award for being raced under so many different guises

[danmills]

Nickerson is still in the farming business. I did have a snoop and he seems a right character but stopped myself getting too immersed in his list of pies and former defunct companies.

Was getting Wild Bill vibes.

[TennisUK]

The deposit arrived in 1999. And that's why we've had I think one new entrant since then that has managed to stick (and I reckon even that is only temporary). For instance the Phoenix team flew to the Malaysian GP in 2002 with actual cars and the FIA barred them because they had not paid the $48m deposit.

pretty sure they turned up with a nosecone or two, and that was it…

[Izzyeviel]

If I understand the docs on companyhouse, they only had 500 pound in the bank. Can someone check?

[TennisUK]

Pretty sure this was all a front for Prost’s FOM money on behalf of his friend, a Mr T. Walkinshaw. As I understand it there were no cars that ever tuned up, just a couple of nose cones they brought to scrutineering.

A ruse, nothing more.

[ensign14]

Tarso Marquez and Gaston Mazzacane were 'hired' as the drivers; not exactly an impressive line-up. Still I hated that Ligier / Prost dissapeared from the grid, those blue cars were always nice to watch and they ran so many good (mostly) French drivers in their history: Laffite, Pironi, Arnoux etc... so I wanted the Phoenix cars on the grid but in all honesty: it wasn't a very serious effort and seemed rather dodgy.

Their plan was probably to run the cars on a shoestring budget so they could sell the team later with a profit. 

It was pretty sketchy but surely the point about competition is to let the competition sort that out?

[PayasYouRace]

It was pretty sketchy but surely the point about competition is to let the competition sort that out?

Sure, but the first rule of any competition is to enter. The second is to show up prepared for said competition. Phoenix did neither.

[PayasYouRace]

By the way I’ve moved the Phoenix discussion from the Andretti thread here.

[William Hunt]

It was pretty sketchy but surely the point about competition is to let the competition sort that out?

 

Indeed, they would have been dead last anyway.

[Alfisti]

Needs more grosjean.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Assuming they'd have pulled that off, how long would they have been allowed to do piss-take qualifying before they got dinged on 'bringing the sport into disrepute' nevermind the weirdness of Phoenix-Prost transferring its money to Arrows

[Izzyeviel]

where they went wrong was not getting a backer from a dictatorship. The FIA love that sort of thing.

[absinthedude]

Assuming they'd have pulled that off, how long would they have been allowed to do piss-take qualifying before they got dinged on 'bringing the sport into disrepute' nevermind the weirdness of Phoenix-Prost transferring its money to Arrows

 

With Andrea Moda, it took him being arrested for fraud....but there were rumblings before then. Initially the F1 fraternity were helpful, rival teams helping Andrea Moda get the cars together and running....but when it became clear he was only intending to run one car with even half an intention to "compete", and poor Perry McCarthy went through hell in cars that were rumoured to be unsafe and even not to have engines in them....

 

Phoenix was certainly never even an attempt at a racing team. It was a financial ruse to help Walkinshaw's struggling Arrows and to screw over Stoddart and Minardi. The letter of the rules meant that you only had to turn up and run a few laps to fulfil the requirements of "competing". The cars were never expected to qualify or do more than a couple of laps at a time, woefully off the pace.  The interesting thing would be....what were Mazzacane and Marques told? Hardly the finest racing drivers but competent and not deserving of such treatment.