75 replies to this topic

[PlayboyRacer]

Burtros, on 13 Mar 2022 - 11:53, said:

Verstappen over Alonso simply because Fernando was WDC already.

As for 2018 being even on the list….. lmfao. The second half he had the car advantage back and Lewis used it brilliantly

So no different to Verstappen in 2021 then, who used his car advantage in the first half of that season brilliantly.

[noikeee]

PlayboyRacer, on 13 Mar 2022 - 12:03, said:

That's fine. But why highlight mistakes in 2008? Or do we expect drivers in their 2nd seasons not to make any?

Drivers in midfield cars, with no pressure whatsoever make mistakes as second year F1 drivers. Lewis was in the pressure cooker of a top team, leading McLaren and fighting for the championship. Expecting perfection probably wasn't realistic.

Because I was answering a post that said 2008 was better than 2018.

[PlayboyRacer]

noikeee, on 13 Mar 2022 - 12:11, said:

Because I was answering a post that said 2008 was better than 2018.

That's cool. Clearly you're not one for context, each to their own.

[noikeee]

????????????

Seanspeed: I don't rate 2018 that high, 2008 was better
Me: I don't agree that year had mistakes, 18 was better because he was more mature, as you'd expect
You: but he was young in 2008 its normal for him to make mistakes
Me: yes that's what I said
You: why talk about the mistakes then
Me: because I was answering a comparison between 08 and 18
You: you don't get the context

???????????????

[r4mses]

solid attempt at a troll poll.

[PlayboyRacer]

noikeee, on 13 Mar 2022 - 12:20, said:

????????????

Seanspeed: I don't rate 2018 that high, 2008 was better
Me: I don't agree that year had mistakes, 18 was better because he was more mature, as you'd expect
You: but he was young in 2008 its normal for him to make mistakes
Me: yes that's what I said
You: why talk about the mistakes then
Me: because I was answering a comparison between 08 and 18
You: you don't get the context

???????????????

Ok perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. Apologies if so.

[HighwayStar]

Borko, on 13 Mar 2022 - 11:05, said:

Schumacher did take the lead after Chinese GP in 2006. Both had 116 points but Schumacher had 7 wins vs Alonso's 6.

2006 for me. Fernando was fantastic. Both Bernie and FIA wanted Schumacher to retire with the 8th WDC, Renault's mass damper was banned in July, also that ridiculous penalty in Monza when they penalised him for "impeding" Massa.
When he had the fastest car, he took 84 points out of 90. Had that astonishingly good race in Hungary, going from 15th to first, that was lost because of the wheelnut failure after the second pitstop.
Also, the legendary battle with MSC in Turkey, when Michael was practically on his for the final 18 laps.

2018 - better driver won. Vettel was horrible from Hockenheim until the end of the season. Lewis sealed the championship in Mexico already, with two races to go, I think you should have put 2008 instead of 2018.

2021 - certainly a jaw dropping season and performances from Lewis and Max, but I don't know, too much "Netflix" for my taste.

 

In my opinion, Alonso holding off Michael Schumacher for second in the 2006 Turkish GP was more impressive than his more celebrated defence against Schumacher in the previous year's San Marino GP. Overtaking was more feasible at Istanbul Park than at Imola, the battle was later in the season and it held much greater significance for the championship, even more so given that Felipe Massa was leading and it is highly likely he would have slowed down to allow Schumacher to pick up maximum points.

 

I think Hamilton did well to win the title in 2008, particularly considering that Heikki Kovalainen could only manage seventh in the WDC standings, and his five victories were all impressive. His wet weather drive in the  British GP was the obvious standout, but I also really rate his drives in the German GP, where McLaren's decision not to pit him during the mid-race safety car period meant he had to overtake Massa and the ludicrously fortunate Piquet Jr (practically handed the race lead on a plate) to win, and China 2008, which now feels like a preview of Mercedes-era Hamilton completely controlling the race from the front. However, his bad weekends were very damaging to his challenge, especially the Canadian GP as the pit lane crash resulted in a 10 place grid penalty for the next race in France, leaving him empty handed after the two events, while bad starts in Bahrain and Japan led to further incidents and zero points from those races as well. I think Alonso would have won the title driving that year's Ferrari, but Massa avoidably lost points in races such as the Malaysian and British GPs and Raikkonen lost his way after the mid-point of the season, allowing Hamilton to win despite several potentially costly errors. Overall, Hamilton's 2008 season is perhaps slightly underrated, because if you discount the handful of actively bad races he was usually impressive (I would say he had more very strong races than bad ones), but it isn't in the same league as Alonso 2006, Hamilton 2018 or Verstappen 2021.

Edited by HighwayStar, 13 March 2022 - 12:27.

[sheSgoTthElooK]

Alright 2006 in, and we skip epic 2007. O-KAY. 
 

It‘s also funny how Vettel is neglected here (not a fan of his..) but I‘d say with his 4 WDCs, he‘s not dumb **** material. 
 

Vettel‘s loss of reputation is quite shocking. 

Edited by sheSgoTthElooK, 13 March 2022 - 12:59.

[prty]

Seanspeed, on 13 Mar 2022 - 09:04, said:

I rate Lewis' 2008 season above his 2018 season.  The 2008 Ferrari was clearly superior to the Mclaren and Lewis still won.  Took more than a handful of really top tier drives to make it happen. 

I don't think the Ferrari was faster. That 2008 season was basically a competition between Massa and Hamilton about who can make more mistakes, and both won.

[prty]

sheSgoTthElooK, on 13 Mar 2022 - 12:53, said:

Alright 2006 in, and we skip epic 2007. O-KAY. 
 

It‘s also funny how Vettel is neglected here (not a fan of his..) but I‘d say with his 4 WDCs, he‘s not dumb **** material. 
 

Vettel‘s loss of reputation is quite shocking. 

 

Well, none of Vettel's WDCs were anything special.

[George Costanza]

HighwayStar, on 12 Mar 2022 - 18:49, said:

I consider Prost's 1986 season to be one of the greatest achievements in F1 history and one of the few seasons where the title was won by a driver driving what was clearly not the fastest car (as opposed to one of two or more fairly evenly matched packages). Since I started watching, Alonso in 2012 is the only season I've seen which has come close to Prost's 1986 campaign.

Two title winning campaigns that that I think fall somewhere between the two categories are Michael Schumacher's second title in 1995 and Alonso's first title in 2005. In the case of Schumacher's 1995, he performed extremely well to win so comfortably with a record-equalling total of nine race wins against a potentially faster Williams car, but he did so against an off-form Damon Hill (who crumbled in the second half of the year in particular) and David Coulthard, who was never able to consistently get close to Schumacher's level. When you remember that Prost triumphed against Williams-Hondas driven by Nigel Mansell and Nelson Piquet, 1995 falls short in this respect. In 2005, Alonso did very well to win the championship against peak Kimi Raikkonen in a very fast McLaren that was the class of the field for much of the season, but the superior reliability of the Renault compensated somewhat for their deficit in pace.

Michael's 2000 season was better than his 1995. The 2000 McLaren was the faster car that season. I rank Schumacher's 2000 season among the very best. He was under obscene pressure of Ferrari to win a Championship. And today's Ferrari is still waiting for the next Schumacher to what he did and it all kicked off in 2000.

Edited by George Costanza, 14 March 2022 - 04:08.

[George Costanza]

PlayboyRacer, on 12 Mar 2022 - 15:56, said:

You're right and I'd also place Schumacher's 1998 season and Senna's 1993 season amongst those you mentioned.

But if I'm being totally honest, I'd still place Prost's 1986 above them all. When he finished a race, he was on the podium. And his MP4/2C certainly didn't always warrant that. The only exception being Belgium where he raced from the back to 6th, in a damaged car. That was quite a brilliant drive.

1998 was another excellent season by Michael, but I think 1997 was slightly better because the number of cars that could win were fairly high. Williams, Mclaren, Benetton and Ferrari were all in the mix. And Schumacher's Ferrari wasn't the even the second fastest sometimes in 1997. 1998 they were certainly second fastest behind McLaren.

[DrivenF1]

Massively calling recency effect and hindsight bias here.

For context hindsight bias is assuming that something was easy because it happened. Biggest sufferers from this are multiple WDCs as people just assume their winning campaigns were pre-determined and straightforward. Even if Merc had the fifth best car in 2018 and Hamilton won, you’d still have some biased people talking about Merc dominance. Same thing for Ferrari in 2000-2004 and Red Bull in 2010-2013.

I don’t have a strong opinion on this poll but Alonso’s 2006 was night and day cleaner than Verstappen’s title last year. The first and last four races weren’t special at all, and that’s ignoring things like Monza and the effect that Spa had on the championship. Max’s WDC was great but it fell some way short of true greatness, like Schumacher’s 1997 had he won it by punting Villeneuve off.

[PlayboyRacer]

George Costanza, on 14 Mar 2022 - 04:12, said:

1998 was another excellent season by Michael, but I think 1997 was slightly better because the number of cars that could win were fairly high. Williams, Mclaren, Benetton and Ferrari were all in the mix. And Schumacher's Ferrari wasn't the even the second fastest sometimes in 1997. 1998 they were certainly second fastest behind McLaren.

That's true. But then Villeneuve had the same sort of challenge didn't he, regarding 1997? Certainly post Spain (6th round) there were multiple weekends Williams Renault didn't have the fastest car. Michael could at times rely on other cars getting amongst Villeneuve and in front, he didn't have that benefit with Hakkinen in 1998. That year McLaren and Ferrari were miles in front, literally every single weekend. Save for Hockenheim '98 and Villeneuve's heroics.

So imo Schumacher in 1997/98 was equally as brilliant, just in a different set of dynamics each year.

[Tenmantaylor]

William Hunt, on 11 Mar 2022 - 15:39, said:

The title was stolen from Hamilton in 2021 so this can never be a good season with the way it ended. I don't recognise Max as the title winner.

Had Max maintained decorum and not use the Silverstone racing incident as an axe to wield for the rest of the season and won it fair and square it would clearly have been a WDC season of ultra rare quality from a driver against one of the GOATs.

[Requiem84]

What I like about 2006 and 2021 is that the opposition was quite strong.

For 2018, Hamilton had a very strong season, but Vettel obviously lost his touch in the 2nd half. You can’t blame that on Hamilton obviously, but for special seasons the opposition needs to be on top of its game to give shine to the winner.

[messy]

Yeah Vettel lost the 2018.....not even title, contention for the title - all by himself, he went to pieces. 

 

It doesn't take away from Lewis' performances directly, but it does detract slightly from the title winning performance level, it can't not. 

[balage06]

If anything, last year's title fight only belittled Max in my eyes. He just seemed like a desperate kid in the last few races. It was not an enjoyable conclusion at all, because it wasn't even a proper fight, it was basically Hamilton trying to avoid race ending contact with him for 4 consequent races. So I wouldn't put that campaign anywhere near the other two.

Edited by balage06, 14 March 2022 - 08:24.

[Requiem84]

balage06, on 14 Mar 2022 - 08:23, said:

If anything, last year's title fight only belittled Max in my eyes. He just seemed like a desperate kid in the last few races. It was not an enjoyable conclusion at all, because it wasn't even a proper fight, it was basically Hamilton trying to avoid race ending contact with him for 4 consequent races. So I wouldn't put that campaign anywhere near the other two.

 

What you typically see is that we generalize our memories: 

 

Quote

it was basically Hamilton trying to avoid race ending contact with him for 4 consequent races.

 

Might be my fuzzy memory, but I don't think they were ever near in Qatar!

[PlatenGlass]

prty, on 13 Mar 2022 - 15:34, said:

Well, none of Vettel's WDCs were anything special.

They weren't close battles but a lot of people raved about 2011 and 2013 at the time.

[GunnarN7]

PlatenGlass, on 14 Mar 2022 - 08:58, said:

They weren't close battles but a lot of people raved about 2011 and 2013 at the time.

 

The first part of 2013 was pretty impressive in my book, without a dominant car was he was clearly the best driver. Alonso made mistakes and struggled a lot against Massa in qualifying. Then Vettel ran off with it, but still to be able to win 9 races in a row is no joke. Some might say it was all about the car, but there have been lots of dominant cars in history and it's still an unmatched record. And Webber drove that same car, he was maybe past his prime but he was pretty quick still but Seb was just in the zone in those years.

Edited by GunnarN7, 14 March 2022 - 09:25.

[taran]

I would say any title fight that includes more than two drivers. When just two drivers fight (from different teams), their teammates are invariably tasked with supporting them and it is a straightforward fight. However, when multiple drivers fight, you cannot play the percentage game that easily, expecting to do better at a track more suitable to your car.

 

I would say 2012 and 2010 are the recent top seasons but my favourites are probably the 1980s when there were several genuine top teams (Ferrari, Brabham, Lotus, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Ligier) which could produce race winners and you could have seasons like 1986 (Mansell, Piquet, Senna and Prost going for the title) or 1983 (Piquet, Prost, Arnoux, Tambay) for example.

 

Moreover, I also think it makes it less likely to turn into a handbags at dawn drama fest, as there is not a single opponent to focus on and blame for everything.

[TheRhodesian74]

rodnet1, on 12 Mar 2022 - 23:43, said:

Please get a life. Sorry to bring this news to you but despite your strictly personal opinion there is only one world driver champion 2021 and his name Max Verstappen. Get used to it.

 

...there was only one driver who was champion in 1994 as well and questions remain over the legitimacy of that title to this very day. Same for 2021, it will always be a heavily  tainted title whether you like it or not. Simples. 

[TheRhodesian74]

balage06, on 14 Mar 2022 - 08:23, said:

If anything, last year's title fight only belittled Max in my eyes. He just seemed like a desperate kid in the last few races. It was not an enjoyable conclusion at all, because it wasn't even a proper fight, it was basically Hamilton trying to avoid race ending contact with him for 4 consequent races. So I wouldn't put that campaign anywhere near the other two.

 

it certainly doesn't belong anywhere near the other 2 or many others in the history of F1.

 

Like has been previously mentioned, Prost 86 is a strong candidate. 

[Requiem84]

GunnarN7, on 14 Mar 2022 - 09:22, said:

The first part of 2013 was pretty impressive in my book, without a dominant car was he was clearly the best driver. Alonso made mistakes and struggled a lot against Massa in qualifying. Then Vettel ran off with it, but still to be able to win 9 races in a row is no joke. Some might say it was all about the car, but there have been lots of dominant cars in history and it's still an unmatched record. And Webber drove that same car, he was maybe past his prime but he was pretty quick still but Seb was just in the zone in those years.

 

At that time Vettel really felt as one of the fastest qualifiers in F1. He was pretty spectacular if he could exploit his Q speed, start on pole and pump in consistent laptimes. His 'racing weaknesses' weren't really exposed that year.

 

In addition to his racing weaknesses being exposed in later years, it also felt quite strongly if he lost a bit of qualifying speed the last couple of years, which is strange to me. 

[TheRhodesian74]

HighwayStar, on 12 Mar 2022 - 18:49, said:

I consider Prost's 1986 season to be one of the greatest achievements in F1 history and one of the few seasons where the title was won by a driver driving what was clearly not the fastest car (as opposed to one of two or more fairly evenly matched packages). Since I started watching, Alonso in 2012 is the only season I've seen which has come close to Prost's 1986 campaign.

 

Two title winning campaigns that that I think fall somewhere between the two categories are Michael Schumacher's second title in 1995 and Alonso's first title in 2005. In the case of Schumacher's 1995, he performed extremely well to win so comfortably with a record-equalling total of nine race wins against a potentially faster Williams car, but he did so against an off-form Damon Hill (who crumbled in the second half of the year in particular) and David Coulthard, who was never able to consistently get close to Schumacher's level. When you remember that Prost triumphed against Williams-Hondas driven by Nigel Mansell and Nelson Piquet, 1995 falls short in this respect. In 2005, Alonso did very well to win the championship against peak Kimi Raikkonen in a very fast McLaren that was the class of the field for much of the season, but the superior reliability of the Renault compensated somewhat for their deficit in pace.

 

I think history has been harsh on Hill in the 95 campaign....

 

He had the measure of Schumacher in Brazil but for his car let him down all while Schumacher was flinging the Benetton off the track all weekend with reckless abandon. Schumacher also went flying off at Imola and Hill once again had opened up a decent lead in just one lap at Germany before once again the car failed...........a fact that Williams did not admit until well after the event and made it look like Damon had lost it.

 

He also had car problems at Spain and Canada although to be fair Schumacher was robbed of a certain win at Montreal....Hill made errors in 95 no doubt about it but Schumacher had this knack of making probably the same amount of errors yet being able to recover it. He was wayward in Brazil before lucking into a win and at Belgium he stuffed the car again in quali but the perfect storm of changeable weather, fortunate strategy, getting away with almost ramming Hill off the track and other cars failures got him the win. 

 

Schumacher without doubt was a deserving champion but I think it's been a bit exaggerated over the years. 

Edited by TheRhodesian74, 14 March 2022 - 10:42.