104 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Gentlemen, ladies, various modern classifications if neither of the preceding - a few prints just discovered (rediscovered).  Comments?

 

Photos from The GP Library

 

1 - 

 

 

 

2 -

 

3 - 

 

 

4 - 

 

 

5 -

 

 

 

6 -

 

7 -

 

8 - 

 

9 -

 

10 -

 

11 - 

 

12 -

 

12B -

 

14 -

 

15 -

 

And finally (Health & Safety fans look away) an early rear-engined V8:

 

16 -

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 25 April 2022 - 08:10.

[jtremlett]

I think the last one (#6) might be Tripoli.  No idea about the others.

Edited by jtremlett, 23 April 2022 - 19:55.

[ensign14]

4 looks like Colin Strang in his F500 special.  5 is obviously the same formula, was thinking Scampolo but I don't think that's quite right.

[LittleChris]

I think the last one (#6) might be Tripoli.  No idea about the others.

I'd guess a very early shot of Mellaha as there's no sign of the pit buildings

[d j fox]

5 Paddock Bend in the old “ wrong way round” days?

[LittleChris]

5 Paddock Bend in the old “ wrong way round” days?

 

I thought the same just before reading your reply

[jimturner]

No.2 This is taken at Fordingbridge hillclimb (Cockley Hill) in May 1946. The car is a Riley Special, built, I believe, by Leslie Onslow-Bartlett, who later built the fearsome Mercury Special. I believe the car made very few appearances. No doubt the Riley experts on this forum will be able to add more….

[PaulButler58]

No.2 This is taken at Fordingbridge hillclimb (Cockley Hill) in May 1946. The car is a Riley Special, built, I believe, by Leslie Onslow-Bartlett, who later built the fearsome Mercury Special. I believe the car made very few appearances. No doubt the Riley experts on this forum will be able to add more….

 

It has a definite look of pre-war Mercedes to it as well - like a mini W25! Have to say that I love it.

Edited by PaulButler58, 24 April 2022 - 09:41.

[Rupertlt1]

No.2 This is taken at Fordingbridge hillclimb (Cockley Hill) in May 1946. The car is a Riley Special, built, I believe, by Leslie Onslow-Bartlett, who later built the fearsome Mercury Special. I believe the car made very few appearances. No doubt the Riley experts on this forum will be able to add more….

 

May 12—Southampton Car Club, Invitation

hill-climb, Godshill, near Fordingbridge,

Hants. Autocar, 3 May 1946

 

RGDS RLT 

[nicanary]

No.2 This is taken at Fordingbridge hillclimb (Cockley Hill) in May 1946. The car is a Riley Special, built, I believe, by Leslie Onslow-Bartlett, who later built the fearsome Mercury Special. I believe the car made very few appearances. No doubt the Riley experts on this forum will be able to add more….

I believe there were rumours that it was built around a pre-war Zoller.

[Rupertlt1]

For Fordingbridge report see Motor Sport, June 1946, Page 119.

It says: "(racing machinery was barred)"

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 24 April 2022 - 10:46.

[nicanary]

No. 1 is a German F3 car - Roman Belz' Befiata, Topolino based.

 

PS No.5 I reckon is also German F3 appears to be belt-drive!

 

PPS No.3 looks awfully like the original Attila-Climax with a larger engine fitted resulting in grotesque appearance.

Edited by nicanary, 24 April 2022 - 12:24.

[Garsted]

11 looks like the cockpit end of the LSR vehicle in 7 (the suspension linkages look the same in both). There is some similarity to the Railton Mobil Special pictured on wikipedia.
Steve

Edit: I am pretty sure that is it, two Napier Lion W12 engines, as can be seen in the video here
https://landspeedrec...cial-john-cobb/

Edited by Garsted, 24 April 2022 - 13:21.

[tbolt]

9, Blue Bird 1927 ?

[ensign14]

10 - is that Asmara? 

[Steve L]

8 - The much missed Appleton Special.  Sacrificed in recent years to make a fake/replica Maserati GP car...

 

14 - Bowler-Hoffman Bentley Special as raced at Brooklands?  The small car in the background is very interesting.  Is it an early iteration of the Freikaiserwagen, or possibly one of the first 500s?

[Jahn1234567890]

8 - The much missed Appleton Special.  Sacrificed in recent years to make a fake/replica Maserati GP car...

 

14 - Bowler-Hoffman Bentley Special as raced at Brooklands?  The small car in the background is very interesting.  Is it an early iteration of the Freikaiserwagen, or possibly one of the first 500s?

 

The Appleton special image is from mid 1948. John Appleton competed at the Manx Cup at Douglas with starting number one. The cars' configuration matches with the images I have of 1948.

[Lee Nicolle]

12 seems to be rear engined. If so beating the majority by 50 odd years.

[Dutchy]

Isn't 12 an AV Monocar?

[cpbell]

I'd guess a very early shot of Mellaha as there's no sign of the pit buildings

My thoughts as well.

[bradbury west]

If it is an Attila it must be the mk 2, originally fitted with a 2 litre FPF and wobbly webs.  My photos  on file from one of the original involved parties with Mark at the wheel show the mk1 with more bulbous front wings, sloping door tops and a shorter rear end, and wire wheels, and what I suspect may be an Eleven full screen but sloping backwards more.
The photo shows what must be radically re moulded wing tops and a different, lower, door top,  but re engining etc  a car usually presents no bounds to the modifier…. ignoring the grotesque  engine/body treatment.

I  know from my programmes research on e bay that John Bekaert raced the  mk2 in 63 and 64 possibly  and there is on there name which escapes my grey matter into 1966, but I do not recall anything other than a 2 litre FPF fitted. 
Peter Morley may throw some light on it all though.
Roger Lund

 

 

from  nicanary

PPS No.3 looks awfully like the original Attila-Climax with a larger engine fitted resulting in grotesque appearance.

[bradbury west]

As a long shot for 16 it might be some sort of thrust test for a Curtiss OX V8 aero engine, WW1 period.

Roger Lund

[BRG]

As a long shot for 16 it might be some sort of thrust test for a Curtiss OX V8 aero engine, WW1 period.

Roger Lund

You would hope so, as that would at least be a rational idea.  But the bulb-horn on the front valance makes me fear it was actually a road going vehicle!  

[Dutchy]

I don't think its a Curtis OX-5 - the valve gear looks quite different.

The 'test vehicle' is right hand drive and the venue looks like Brooklands to me so the engine is presumably British - other than that I don't have any bright ideas.

[Charlieman]

You would hope so, as that would at least be a rational idea.  But the bulb-horn on the front valance makes me fear it was actually a road going vehicle!  

 

I don't think its a Curtis OX-5 - the valve gear looks quite different.

The 'test vehicle' is right hand drive and the venue looks like Brooklands to me so the engine is presumably British - other than that I don't have any bright ideas.

The triangular gap between the seats suggests that it was the location of the original engine. Driving position suggests that it just might have been front engined. However the front wheels are more lightly spoked than the rears. Perhaps a buggy which was chopped and changed to serve different test purposes? The design precedes drum rear brakes by many years, so we can assume chain drive at one time.

 

There's a cable, maybe rod, running below the chassis rails and cutting across the feet of the men photographed in the background. I think that's a brake operating on the rear axle. The transmission brake, along with other controls, is absent.

 

Our four brave test subjects aren't smiling much because they know that if the car starts to go, it won't stop easily.

[AJCee]

Maybe there’s a copy of 16 in a coroner’s report somewhere?

[Charlieman]

11 looks like the cockpit end of the LSR vehicle in 7 (the suspension linkages look the same in both). There is some similarity to the Railton Mobil Special pictured on wikipedia.
Steve

Edit: I am pretty sure that is it, two Napier Lion W12 engines, as can be seen in the video here
https://landspeedrec...cial-john-cobb/

The same hand wrote DE on the wheels in photos 7 and 11. Holes in the dashboard look similar. 

 

In photo 11, the steering box provides a shaft diagonally backwards -- which is hard to understand unless the designer intends to steer the rear wheels.

 

Some sort of diagonal swing arm suspension system in photo 11? But what is the clutter behind the driver's seat?

 

Gate change gear mech -- how many speeds, and/or reverse?

[Vitesse2]

#15 - that contraption has a 1932-39 pattern Czech number plate, registered in Prague. The inscription is intriguing too - 'Schwerölmotor' suggests it might be running on marine diesel - but would that really fit with a 950cc 78PS (76HP) engine allegedly propelling it at 160km/h? Vorntriebwagen indicates it's front-wheel drive. So could it be twin-engined, as 'Doppelenkunz' means duplicate, which I guess can't refer to it having two swing axles, but might it also indicate it having two 'Gangwähler' - gear selectors? So could there be another exhaust pipe on the other side? And where does 480kg come into it? Somehow it looks a lot heavier than that ...

 

And could the name Otto Smekal be connected wth the Otto Anton Smekal (born 1898) who was later granted some UK patents for improvements to suspensions, disc brakes, funnels and vehicle windows? Whoever he was and wherever he came from, in 1939 he seems to have been living in Yorkshire and died in Bedford in 1966. His 1939 Register entry says he was an engineer.

 

[Post-WW2 BMC did build a 950cc marine diesel, known as the Vedette, based on the ubiquitous A-series block!]

 

Oh and re the Tripoli picture - surely it must be from the 1950s, when the site was a US air base?

[9203RW]

If it is an Attila it must be the mk 2, originally fitted with a 2 litre FPF and wobbly webs.  My photos  on file from one of the original involved parties with Mark at the wheel show the mk1 with more bulbous front wings, sloping door tops and a shorter rear end, and wire wheels, and what I suspect may be an Eleven full screen but sloping backwards more.
The photo shows what must be radically re moulded wing tops and a different, lower, door top,  but re engining etc  a car usually presents no bounds to the modifier…. ignoring the grotesque  engine/body treatment.

I  know from my programmes research on e bay that John Bekaert raced the  mk2 in 63 and 64 possibly  and there is on there name which escapes my grey matter into 1966, but I do not recall anything other than a 2 litre FPF fitted. 
Peter Morley may throw some light on it all though.
Roger Lund

 

 

from  nicanary

PPS No.3 looks awfully like the original Attila-Climax with a larger engine fitted resulting in grotesque appearance.

 

I believe no.3 is the Lolette Chevrolet, raced by Eric Brockhoven during 1964.  It started life in South Africa and ran in a few races in the UK during 1964 - there's a picture in volume 2 of the second edition of A Record of Motor Racing at Goodwood - then ran with coupe bodywork in the 1964 Kyalami 9 Hour race.  Whether that was the same car rebodied or a second iteration, I don't know.

[Charlieman]

#15 - that contraption has a 1932-39 pattern Czech number plate, registered in Prague. 

We have a further clue with the lady's portrait, between the exhaust pipe and near side rear tyre. She'd have been lost if the car had its tail bodywork.

 

Owing to the angle, the bonnet looks longer than might be. The exhaust system looks temporary.

 

Who was Ing. MacSquigllyhand?

 

Tyre experts?

[Allan Lupton]

The same hand wrote DE on the wheels in photos 7 and 11. Holes in the dashboard look similar. 

 

In photo 11, the steering box provides a shaft diagonally backwards -- which is hard to understand unless the designer intends to steer the rear wheels.

 

Some sort of diagonal swing arm suspension system in photo 11? But what is the clutter behind the driver's seat?

 

Gate change gear mech -- how many speeds, and/or reverse?

7 and 11 are the John Cobb Railton record car (later Railton Mobil). To understand the driving seat photo you have to remember that it is ahead of the front wheels, so it is the front suspension that you see. The diagonal shaft takes the steering motion back to the (steering) front wheels.

This well-known photo of Cobb in his seat may help you:

 

Trying again as previous photo link didn't work

Edited by Allan Lupton, 27 April 2022 - 15:34.

[Charlieman]

No. 14. Not a clue about the car in the background. The one in the foreground with a teardrop radiator inlet should be known.

 

Single seater. No indication that it was a mucked about sports car. Suspension from the 1930s. Bulges at driver knee height. Bulge for gear change, maybe preselector, at steering wheel shaft level.

[Charlieman]

7 and 11 are the John Cobb Railton record car (later Railton Mobil). 

 

You knew it all the time, Allan. 

 

Could you use some of your acquired knowledge, with hints, to help others to explore further?

[Vitesse2]

 

Owing to the angle, the bonnet looks longer than might be. The exhaust system looks temporary.

If each of those louvres is (say) 2cm and they have a 1cm gap between them, then that makes the bonnet about 2 metres long. If they're 3cm then that would make it about 3 metres.

[Charlieman]

If each of those louvres is (say) 2cm and they have a 1cm gap between them, then that makes the bonnet about 2 metres long. If they're 3cm then that would make it about 3 metres.

It is difficult to bash out a 15mm louvre from Al. So I can accept your bonnet length of about two metres. What were the louvres behind the engine about?

[Vitesse2]

It is difficult to bash out a 15mm louvre from Al. So I can accept your bonnet length of about two metres. What were the louvres behind the engine about?

That was part of my reasoning behind the twin engine suggestion.

 

Those wheels look a bit 'agricultural'/commercial vehicle somehow as well - they don't seem to match anything obvious from Aero, Zbrojovka, Tatra or Skoda in that period.

[Charlieman]

That was part of my reasoning behind the twin engine suggestion.

 

Those wheels look a bit 'agricultural'/commercial vehicle somehow as well - they don't seem to match anything obvious from Aero, Zbrojovka, Tatra or Skoda in that period.

The louvres imply that it was a special. It's as if someone was told to make as many louvres as possible.

 

The wheels aren't agricultural - four spoke originals. 

[Michael Ferner]

So could it be twin-engined, as 'Doppelenkunz' means duplicate, which I guess can't refer to it having two swing axles, but might it also indicate it having two 'Gangwähler' - gear selectors?

It's "Doppellenkung", meaning duplex steering, presumably: two drag links, left and right, to eliminate the tie rod. Not sure what "Gangwähler" refers to, perhaps a pre-selector gearbox?

 

I've searched for Otto Smelka in the ANNO newspaper archive, and it shows a few hits for an "automotive person" (engineer??) in Vienna in the twenties - also tons of hits for a KuK tax inspector, who died in 1921, so not our man.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 26 April 2022 - 17:20.

[Charlieman]

I've searched for Otto Smelka in the ANNO newspaper archive...

Do you know anyone who might read the second Ing signature?

[Michael Ferner]

The signature is Smelka's, clearly. And I think the sign probably just says "Kanzlei", which is Austrian for office. As for the time frame, twenties or thirties in my opinion.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 26 April 2022 - 17:36.

[Charlieman]

The signature of more interest is something which you missed.

[Doug Nye]

Ahem - gents, the name connected to photo 15 is 'Smekal' not 'Smelka'.

 

I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time (if so moved) by chasing the wrong name around the outermost arms of the interweb.  

 

DCN

[Vitesse2]

The signature is Smelka's, clearly. And I think the sign probably just says "Kanzlei", which is Austrian for office. As for the time frame, twenties or thirties in my opinion.

Why do you think we're in Austria, Michael? It's clearly a Czechoslovakian number plate - Austrian plates were also white on black, but without the hyphen after the code letter:

 

http://plaque.free.f.../_PASS_1930-38/

 

Czech plates came in several fonts, but always in these formats: L-NN.NNN or L-N.NNN

 

http://plaque.free.f.../_PASS_1932-39/

[Michael Ferner]

I'm sorry, I wrote Smelka but searched for Smekal - honest, guvnor!

 

Otto Smekal is a typical KuK name: Smekal - Wikipedia is a Czech family name, and Otto a German/Austrian personal name. Also, I can search Austrian papers, but not Czech language sites , and I found a person with an automotive connection with that name. I have no idea if he's the "right" one, but I'm offering him up for discussion. Simples.

[Michael Ferner]

The signature of more interest is something which you missed.

 

If there's a second signature, then yes, I missed it. Can you help me find it?

[Catalina Park]

#16 is the ABC Motors propeller testing car from 1911. 
The engine is an ABC 80hp V8.

Edited by Catalina Park, 27 April 2022 - 08:45.

[cpbell]

#16 is the ABC Motors propeller testing car from 1911. 
The engine is an ABC 80hp V8.

Well found, and what an utterly terrifying contraption!

[Vitesse2]

I knew I'd seen that beast before! Some more detail here - including the fact that it had apparently been driven on the road from Southampton to Brooklands! The number plate displayed on it is an early trade plate - AA was a Hampshire registration - so that presumably also explains the presence of the bulb horn and rudimentary lights, theoretically making it 'road legal'.

[2F-001]

... theoretically making it 'road legal'.

That should certainly discourage tailgating...

[Charlieman]

If there's a second signature, then yes, I missed it. Can you help me find it?

You're right, it says Otto... Old German-ish handwriting is tricky for English people to decipher.