86 replies to this topic

[Porsche718]

Hi all, (I apologise if we have had this topic before)

 

In researching another matter this evening, I was reminded of one of my favourite wet race drives of all time. (At least that I have witnessed!)

 

As an Aussie I will never forget 1969 Warwick Farm Tasman round. Pouring rain and Jochen Rindt a class above the rest.

 

Even in the dry practice he was almost a second clear of anyone else and over a second clear of his teammate Graham Hill. But in the rain on race day his fastest lap was 1.5 seconds quicker than anyone. Four wheel drifting everywhere. 

 

Pure class. How long he would have been at the top, we can only wonder.

 

My second pick would be (even though I wasn't there!!!) Jackie Stewart's drive in the 1968 German GP.

 

Nurburgring, fog, mist, driving rain ... and with a broken wrist to boot ... the wee Scot finished 4 MINUTES ahead of Graham Hill's Lotus. Remarkable.

 

So come on all ... give us your top drives ...

[Sterzo]

Along with a fair number of other mud-caked TNF members, I was at Brands Hatch for the 1970 BOAC 1000K. Pedro Rodriguez was ridiculously brilliant. Like Rindt, his style didn't seem to require the tyres to grip the road; his natural habitat was the zone where there is little adhesion.

[Michael Ferner]

Narain Karthikeyan was always very good if it was wet (at least in the junior categories, never saw him in F1).

[Michael Ferner]

In F1, of course we had Vittorio Brambilla and Hans-Joachim Stuck, who would almost always fight "above weight" on a slippery track.

[Michael Ferner]

Jean-Pierre Beltoise "walked on water" at Monaco in 1972!

[Michael Ferner]

Eddie Cheever lapped Spa in an Alfa Romeo ten seconds faster than anybody else!

[Michael Ferner]

Johnny Herbert drove Donington 1993 on slicks throughout, when everybody else swopped from wets to dries and back every ten laps or so! Finished well up, too, if I remember correctly.

[Zoe]

I'm neither as old experienced as you folks and my memory is bad. What I remember until today is Bellof in Monaco, Schumacher (the elder) in Spa and Barcelona.

 

Then there was a race, possibly Donington(?) where Prost came to change tires about 15 times or so, every time just a the worst possible moment. A race in Italy where about every second car slid off the track on the formation lap.

 

The rest is clouded in the rainy fog of my memory.

[Porsche718]

I remember reading in a book somewhere of all the Formula 1 drivers watching Rob Slotemaker from the back of the pits at the 1968 wet Dutch Grand Prix. 

 

It was the GP support saloon race. Slotemaker was "rally-flicking" his Mustang in the heavy rain all the way through the sweeping curves from Tarzan to the Hunzerug.

[wheadon1985]

Damon Hill, Japan 1994. Quite possibly his greatest drive of his career. 

[Charlieman]

Keke Rosberg at the International Trophy 1978.

 

Everyone who finished at the International Trophy 1979.

 

Jenson Button was often good in the wet.

[Tim Murray]

One race I’d love to have been at is the very wet 1969 International Trophy at Silverstone. Jochen Rindt had been slowed by a misfire in the early laps, and was a long way behind the leaders when the misfire cured itself. He then charged up through the field and very nearly pipped Jack Brabham for the win after Jack almost ran out of fuel on the last lap. The highlight of Jochen’s drive was on lap 25. He was catching Ickx and Courage who were fighting for second place, and they were catching Hill and Rodriguez who were a lap down. On the approach to Stowe Rindt was at the back of the group. On the exit he was in front of them all, and in second place.

[AJCee]

Agree about Rosberg at Silverstone in 78. That car was not one for the sharp end of the field and he won fair and square. I recall being wet and cold and waiting a long time between the last five or six cars running!

[Zoe]

Damon Hill, Japan 1994. Quite possibly his greatest drive of his career. 

 

The one where he got three tires changed?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Porsche718
.....Even in the dry practice he was almost a second clear of anyone else and over a second clear of his teammate Graham Hill. But in the rain on race day his fastest lap was 1.5 seconds quicker than anyone. Four wheel drifting everywhere.

Sorry, but Graham Hill had fastest lap in that race after he cleared up his wet ignition...

Fastest laps in the race:

Graham Hill, 1:40.3, also did 1.40.7.

Jochen Rindt, 1:40.4, also did 1:41.2 and 1:41.3

Derek Bell, 1:41.5

Bell finished 42.2 seconds behind Rindt in the race, but was held up by the Courage/Amon incident and took a while to get speed up.

[GazChed]

Jacky Ickx and his Lotus driving around the outside of Niki Lauda and his Ferrari at Paddock to win the soaking wet 1974 Race of Champions.

[Michael Ferner]

Jacques Laffite at the 1981 Canadian Grand Prix! Never put a wheel wrong, the only one in the field not to spin or take to the grass at least once.

[D-Type]

Not a race, but Gilles Villeneuve in practice at Watkins Glen in 1979 when he was ELEVEN seconds faster than the next man

[LittleChris]

Ronnie, Austria 1978

[Colbul1]

Mansell at Silverstone in 1988 driving the Judd powered Williams. That car had no rights to finish in 2nd.

[Collombin]

Not a race, but Gilles Villeneuve in practice at Watkins Glen in 1979 when he was ELEVEN seconds faster than the next man

You've been Roebucked, it was "just" 8.5 seconds and not many drivers ventured out. Still an amazing piece of driving though as quite a few eye witnesses would attest to.

[DN5]

The drive that came to my mind was Hans Stuck in the Sauber at the 1982 1000km at Brands (before the red flag).

[jcbc3]

Was at the Spa 1000km in 1987 where Marc Duez in very changeable conditions were faster in his C2 Ecosse than the heavy hitters in C1. Of course he was local as well as a rally driver but it was beyond belief to see him fling that car.

Looking at the results now, I see that he and Mike Wilds finished 6 laps behind Velez/Spice, but it is the one than I have witnessed personally that stick in my mind.

[RogerFrench]

We were at Nurburgring in 68 for Stewart's magnum opus. Absolutely astonishing!

Edited by RogerFrench, 27 April 2022 - 14:59.

[Michael Ferner]

You've been Roebucked, it was "just" 8.5 seconds and not many drivers ventured out. Still an amazing piece of driving though as quite a few eye witnesses would attest to.

 

Even more so, as I recently found the report about the weekend in the Italian magazine Autosprint, which published all practice times from all sessions:

 

as-79-41-usa-east-27p.pdf (wordpress.com) (go to page 18 of the document)

 

During the morning session, in about the same conditions, but with rather more of the drivers taking an interest, Villeneuve was still fastest, but only by less than half a second from Scheckter. I don't think anyone other than Villeneuve really tried in the afternoon, everyone else was just taking "exploratory laps".

 

 

That said, I have to correct myself with regards to Eddie Cheever at Spa: it was in 1983, driving a (competitive) Renault rather than an (incompetitive) Alfa Romeo, and it was 'only' about five seconds.

[Risil]

I'm neither as old experienced as you folks and my memory is bad. What I remember until today is Bellof in Monaco, Schumacher (the elder) in Spa and Barcelona.

 

Then there was a race, possibly Donington(?) where Prost came to change tires about 15 times or so, every time just a the worst possible moment. A race in Italy where about every second car slid off the track on the formation lap.

 

The rest is clouded in the rainy fog of my memory.

 

1993 European Grand Prix and 1991 San Marino Grand Prix, I reckon. I often find that I "remember" the details of races I didn't watch much more clearly than the ones I did... That's the nature of history I suppose.

[john winfield]

One race I’d love to have been at is the very wet 1969 International Trophy at Silverstone. Jochen Rindt had been slowed by a misfire in the early laps, and was a long way behind the leaders when the misfire cured itself. He then charged up through the field and very nearly pipped Jack Brabham for the win after Jack almost ran out of fuel on the last lap. The highlight of Jochen’s drive was on lap 25. He was catching Ickx and Courage who were fighting for second place, and they were catching Hill and Rodriguez who were a lap down. On the approach to Stowe Rindt was at the back of the group. On the exit he was in front of them all, and in second place.

 

I wish I remember this Tim. I was there, and can't recall a thing!  

 

Other performances that come to mind:

 

Ickx and Rodriguez at Zandvoort in 1971

 

Cheever, Silverstone F2 in 1979 (as mentioned by Charlieman)

 

JJ Lehto, Le Mans 1995

 

Derek Daly, Silverstone International Trophy 1978. While le lasted......

[Collombin]

That said, I have to correct myself with regards to Eddie Cheever at Spa: it was in 1983, driving a (competitive) Renault rather than an (incompetitive) Alfa Romeo, and it was 'only' about five seconds.

I assumed you were referring to a completely different occasion!

Re Gilles, so if those times are right the real gap was actually about 9.5 seconds so I was wrong with 8.5 anyway.

Do we know the exact lead Ickx had at the end of the soaking wet first lap of the 1968 Spa 1000km? I've seen a few variants claimed, the most modest of which was 38 seconds.

[marksixman]

I too was at Brands for the BOAC 1000, 1970, and of course Pedro was sublime.

 

BUT, may I bring all this big event/famous driver talk down to a lower level with a very personal memory !  I was spannering for Adrian Yates-Smith (Porsche 911) at a very wet and windy Castle Combe in 1979 or '80. It was, I think, an Intermarque race, but possibly Modsports. From pole Adrian had a decent lead, until the wipers somehow got tangled up together, which led to the fuse blowing, so no more wipers. He then had part of a lap behind a backmarker who was losing a lot of oil, so no more vision at all ! Solution -- drop the driver's door window (yes, we still had wind-up windows  ), undo driver's belts (I know, VERY naughty  ) and place head out of window. He won, and even managed to get his belts done up on the slowing-down lap before getting back to parc fermé ! 

 

Happy memories, especially as it was the first event (indeed, first date) with my beloved wife. 

[68targa]

The car control that Senna displayed at the 1993 European GP at Donington  and Rodriguez in that 1970 BOAC race at Brands. Both were in a class above all others - a privilege to have witnessed and well worth the soaking.

[9203RW]

Ickx, Spa 1000Kms 1967 in the Mirage, especially the first lap?  His car won by over a lap, despite his co-driver (Dick Thompson) being about 30 seconds a lap slower, with Ickx driving all but an hour of the race.  Of consistently wet races I was fortunate enough to attend, it's a close call between Rodriguez in the 917 at Brands in 1970 and Ickx in the Lotus 72 in the 1974 Race of Champions.  Lehto at Le Mans in 1995 is right up there too.  However, I think that the test of real mastery is when the conditions are changeable and, for me, Senna's performance in the 1993 European Grand Prix, remarkable though his performance on the first lap was, really stands out for how he called the changing conditions correctly.

[Michael Ferner]

Senna also excelled at Estoril, in 1985.

[john aston]

The best wet weather drive I've ever seen - ie by being there - was JJ Lehto in 1987 , driving a Pacific Racing Reynard FF2000 87SF at a monsoon like Cadwell Park , with a lake at the entry to Coppice fed by a river flowing across the base of the Mountain .He won  11 /20 FF2000 races that year and convinced me he was destined for F1 greatness. Not quite , sadly.. 

 

I was at Intl Trophy 78 and while Keke was masterful , it did feel rather like the lottery the 1975 British GP became . I saw Ickx at Brands in 1974 and his move was unforgettable, more so by his having an otherwise unremarkable year , already a shadow of his 1972 and earlier self   . 

 

More recently  - and trigger warning - purists can look away now . Jake Hill  in BTCC is astoundingly good in the wet .  

[ensign14]

Larini at Canada 1989.  He could have won that race.  In an Osella.  Was ahead of winner Boutsen when his engine flooded.

[JacnGille]

Not a race, but Gilles Villeneuve in practice at Watkins Glen in 1979 when he was ELEVEN seconds faster than the next man

I was there.

[JacnGille]

You've been Roebucked, it was "just" 8.5 seconds and not many drivers ventured out. Still an amazing piece of driving though as quite a few eye witnesses would attest to.

I was there. No, not many ventured out but Gilles teammate Jody S was one of them. I seem to remember him saying after the session that he had never been so scared in a race car,

[F1Frog]

Jenson Button, 2011 Canadian GP

Michael Schumacher, 1996 Spanish GP

Ayrton Senna, 1993 European GP

Ayrton Senna, 1985 Portuguese GP

Jackie Stewart, 1968 German GP

Jim Clark, 1963 Belgian GP

 

My list, with the very best highlighted.

[Sterzo]

Jean-Pierre Beltoise "walked on water" at Monaco in 1972!

I think we saw that day how good Beltoise would have been without that arm injury, not strong enough to cope with dry-weather grip.

[Alan Lewis]

The best wet weather drive? My mate Steve taking a bunch of us from rural Shropshire to the Big City for the first Birmingham Superprix in 1986 - and everyone who raced that day.

None of the others went back with me the next year though. Lightweights.

[chr1s]

Often overlooked in these discussions is a pair of superbly judged  (in my opinion), if controversial wins by Carlos Reutemann at the beginning of the 1981 season, in South Africa and Rio. Not sure that Alan Jones would agree though...

[Michael Ferner]

They don't race in America when it rains, but Mario Andretti was pretty handy on a flooded track at Fuji in 1976, winning by a full lap which was more than the dominant driver of the era wanted to go in those conditions.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 April 2022 - 21:44.

[Bikr7549]

Circle tracks here don‘t run in the rain but road races do. Mario had F5000, long distance sports cars and CanAm time under his belt to build experience on before that race. Dirt tracks can be pretty slippery as well.

Edited by Bikr7549, 27 April 2022 - 22:13.

[Bob Riebe]

Lagun Seca 1968:

 

"John Cannon immediately dumped the also-rans and arrived among the big names. Donohue, Hulme and Revson in turn saw the red McLaren, all old-fashioned curves instead of aero angles, swish past. He was lapping two seconds faster than Bruce, and it took only seven laps before it was his turn to stare up someone else’s exhausts. And it wasn’t long before Cannon was back again and again. The man in the seven-league Firestones lapped the champion twice. Good advice and gritted teeth had beaten high tech.?

[PCC]

I was there. No, not many ventured out but Gilles teammate Jody S was one of them. I seem to remember him saying after the session that he had never been so scared in a race car,

I remember Jody saying in an interview much later that he didn't really want to go out, but having just won the world championship he thought he thought he had a duty to rise to the occasion. He came back into the pits feeling fairly smug, figuring that he'd shown all the pretenders a thing or two. Then he saw Gilles' time.

[Belmondo]

Willie Green Silverstone Interserie 1972.

[john winfield]

That lovely yellow 512M.

[Myhinpaa]

That lovely yellow 512M.

 

https://forums.autos...d/#entry3434648

 

 

#1030 Ex-Garage Francorchamp http://www.barchetta...l/1030.512m.htm

Edited by Myhinpaa, 28 April 2022 - 10:49.

[1969BOAC500]

Willie Green Silverstone Interserie 1972.

I'm amazed that anyone else remembers ! Yes, the yellow 512M ( was it Bamford's..?)

But back to the thread heading : best overall wet performance I've seen was 'Rodriguez In The Rain', Brands 1970. Best wet moment was Ickx overtaking Lauda at Paddock, 1974. He really did seem to walk on water there - quite uncanny. Honourable mention - Ronnie Peterosn, Faltz BMW 320i Grp 5, last hour of the Silverstone 1000kms 1977.

[john winfield]

Talking of honourable mentions, Colin Crabbe put in a brave performance at a very wet Silverstone (1971?) driving his Mercedes W125. 

[Roger Clark]

Stirling Moss in the 1961 international Trophy, which I saw; Jack Brabham said he was the first human home, or the same year's British Grand Prix, when he hounded the Sharknoses for many laps.  I didn't see that but this bit of Jenkinson has remained in my mind for 60 years:

 

On this lap, the 24th, von Trips appeared from behind the trees at Melling Crossing as usual, followed by the Lotus of Moss, but just as it came into view the tail of the blue car slid out to the left on the sheet of water. In an instant Moss had correction on the steering and slid sideways down the road at around 100 m.p.h. with full left-lock on. For a moment it looked as though he would spin, but then the tail of the car flicked straight and across the road in the other direction. Still complete master of the situation Moss had full right lock on in an instant, and continued to slide down the road sideways, only this time with his tail hung towards the inside of the track, but then, equally quickly the tail flicked back again and this time went right round beyond full left lock, and in a wonderful exhibition of proprioception Moss unwound the steering, let the car complete a clockwise 360-degree spin, caught it at the end of the spin, by which time the speed had been dissipated down to about 40 m.p.h., selected a lower gear and took Tatts Corner as if nothing had happened. The crowded grandstands really showed their appreciation of seeing a Master Driver at work, and the Walker pit thought “Hmm, he’s a few seconds overdue,” having seen none of this feat of brilliance.