90 replies to this topic

[Rediscoveryx]

Even better (in theory) would be to have these tyres being compounds that are not used in the race. Different tyre sets for qualifying and race could be one way of assuring that cars don't line up on the grid in order of race pace. Also, it would throw up an interesting strategic dilemma for the teams, as they'd need to balance competitiveness in qualifying vs competitiveness during the race through the FP-sessions - almost certainly not being able to optimize their cars for both instances.

 

Don't think that this is practically feasible though, as it essentially would require Pirelli to bring six different compounds to each race, well well... 

[pdac]

Even better (in theory) would be to have these tyres being compounds that are not used in the race. Different tyre sets for qualifying and race could be one way of assuring that cars don't line up on the grid in order of race pace. Also, it would throw up an interesting strategic dilemma for the teams, as they'd need to balance competitiveness in qualifying vs competitiveness during the race through the FP-sessions - almost certainly not being able to optimize their cars for both instances.

 

Don't think that this is practically feasible though, as it essentially would require Pirelli to bring six different compounds to each race, well well... 

 

But isn't the whole point of qualifying to find which cars are likely to be the fastest in the race and place them at the front at the start? I think with all of the hunting to find how to interest people more, they are losing sight of what it's all about - a bunch of teams bringing cars and drivers to the circuit and having a race to determine how good each teams car/driver combination is relative to the others.It's not meant to be a steeplechase or a handicap race.

[Hati]

But isn't the whole point of qualifying to find which cars are likely to be the fastest in the race and place them at the front at the start?
 

 

No, the point is to find out which car is fastest on one lap. And for a good race we hope it isn't the same that is fastest on GP distance.

[pdac]

No, the point is to find out which car is fastest on one lap. And for a good race we hope it isn't the same that is fastest on GP distance.

 

No, that is what it has ended up being (albeit for a considerable amount of time)

Edited by pdac, 02 May 2022 - 14:52.

[Mark521]

I guess that's the real question, "What is Qualifying?".

In the past it was to eliminate the slowest cars should there be more than the event "grid size" and most recently to eliminate any cars that were "too slow" (i.e. the 107% rule).

I'm starting to like the "each car gets one set of Hard, Medium and Soft tires for use during Qualifying" and a rule stating "you can only use one compound per qualifying period and you can't use the same compound twice".

Of course I am probably the only one who likes this   but it would mix up the at least the middle of the grid. 

[William Hunt]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

[KWSN - DSM]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

 

 

Not correct there are Free Practice for all teams.

[Rediscoveryx]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

Well, maybe… Although one thought could be that the top teams will gear their setup towards maximizing performance on the soft tyres (which may compromise their ability to get the hards to switch on). Thus, perhaps we’ll see an upset or two in Q1.

[Anderis]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

Nowadays everybody just runs on the softest tyre anyway so nothing will change for the worse.

[Clatter]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

 

How often did they manage that anyway?

[Clatter]

I guess that's the real question, "What is Qualifying?".

In the past it was to eliminate the slowest cars should there be more than the event "grid size" and most recently to eliminate any cars that were "too slow" (i.e. the 107% rule).

I'm starting to like the "each car gets one set of Hard, Medium and Soft tires for use during Qualifying" and a rule stating "you can only use one compound per qualifying period and you can't use the same compound twice".

Of course I am probably the only one who likes this   but it would mix up the at least the middle of the grid. 

 

Qualifying is a the method used to set the grid by lining the cars up in order of speed, and then being surprised by the lack of racing.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Teams already get too many tyres - aided by the insanely stupid idea of "mandatory" race sets. As things stand, they regularly return 1-2 completely unused sets of Mediums or Hards after each race, as well as a 1-2 sets of softs with just a qualifying lap on them.

 

If they reduce the amount of sets given to the teams, but retain the mandatory "return" rule after each FP session, then we won't see any less action on Friday and Saturday.

[PayasYouRace]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

 

Something that never happens. The faster teams only use harder tyres when they were safe through to the next round, never for grid position. Every team uses the softest available when actually going for grid position. If they get it wrong its not the smaller teams causing an upset.

[Frank Tuesday]

Sometimes I think the sport doesn't know what it wants.

I think they know exactly what they want: more eyeballs on sponsor logos. Increase the value of their investment so they can maximize profit when they sell. Sport is tertiary at best.

[Frank Tuesday]

this is a very bad idea, in particular for the smaller teams who can't create a qualy upset by using softer tyres

Qualifying will likely become more predictable. And teams that are easy on tyres (and thereby struggle to get heat into the tyres quickly) will struggle to get into Q2.

[FirstnameLastname]

Are there any other sports that have different rules at different rounds of their championship/league?

F1 is experiencing a somewhat unexpected boom just now - rather than withering and dying which I half expected… and they don’t know why/how or how to use/enjoy that uplift.

it feels like they are tinkering with stuff constantly with no idea of what they are hoping to achieve. Change for the sake of change is never good.

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 03 May 2022 - 01:37.

[Rediscoveryx]

Are there any other sports that have different rules at different rounds of their championship/league?

F1 is experiencing a somewhat unexpected boom just now - rather than withering and dying which I half expected… and they don’t know why/how or how to use/enjoy that uplift.

it feels like they are tinkering with stuff constantly with no idea of what they are hoping to achieve. Change for the sake of change is never good.

Indycar uses different formats for different tracks. As does the WEC. NASCAR has its playoff system.

Tour de France is a good example. A few stages are time trials, the length of stages varies quite a bit etc.

Many (most) team sports have different overtime rules in playoffs vs regular season.

Some sports (skiing for instance) have different sub-disciplines (e.g slalom/downhill etc) and even have separate championships for these disciplines in addition to a total world cup. In nordic skiing there is only a total world cup I believe (perhaps they split between sprint/distance though?). In biathlon, some races use time penalties while other have penalty laps for misses shots. Some races use staggered starts (”time trials”), some have mass starts and some use the chase system, where the winner of the previous event starts first and all others starts after a delay corresponding to the time margin ti the winner in the precious race.

Tennis normally uses three set matches, but in grand slams matches are five sets (for dudes).

Format variation between different events is not an inherintly bad thing.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 03 May 2022 - 03:44.

[DrivenF1]

I like this idea - not surprised that there’s a lot of scepticism though.

Potential upsides:

1) more variety on grid - cars will need to be good on all tyres and cars like the Williams who are better on hard tyres may spring a surprise more often

2) drivers get less chance of going again in later sessions - make a mistake in Q1 and the hard tyre is more forgiving, do it with soft and your Q3 is likely ruined. This will sort out the best drivers (and also lead to more variety on the grid)

3) each Q session will have a very different flavour to it and strategy, more so than now

4) less tyres used which reduces needless cost, environmental impact etc.

I say worth giving a go. It could be a flop but I’m optimistic.

[pdac]

Format variation between different events is not an inherintly bad thing.

 

In F1 it's not different events, though. But maybe there is an argument for them having different events. For example, I'd be fine with having a sprint race and awarding championship points for it as long as it wasn't used to decide the grid position for the main race.

Edited by pdac, 03 May 2022 - 08:50.

[Rediscoveryx]

In F1 it's not different events, though. But maybe there is an argument for them having different events. For example, I'd be fine with having a sprint race and awarding championship points for it as long as it wasn't used to decide the grid position for the main race.

 

Hmm, I think you could easily make the case for each Grand Prix being a separate event and that it would be nothing out of the ordinary from a general sporting perspective to have a championship consist of events that differ slightly from one another. For starters, each race takes place at a track that uses a unique layout - already there we have something that implies variation across events.

 

Now, I also feel that any change that's implemented needs to be carefully thought through. But I also feel that there is little harm in trying different formats from time to time, and I personally wouldn't mind if individual races were more unique. Including slight variations to the format.

[pdac]

Hmm, I think you could easily make the case for each Grand Prix being a separate event and that it would be nothing out of the ordinary from a general sporting perspective to have a championship consist of events that differ slightly from one another. For starters, each race takes place at a track that uses a unique layout - already there we have something that implies variation across events.

 

Now, I also feel that any change that's implemented needs to be carefully thought through. But I also feel that there is little harm in trying different formats from time to time, and I personally wouldn't mind if individual races were more unique. Including slight variations to the format.

 

I see your point.

[Risil]

It would be quite normal if Fifa make rule changes to test them in friendlies, F1 doesn't have that luxury, so choosing a few random races to test something like this makes good sense.

Yeah, FIFA traditionally tries out rule changes in minor tournaments, most frequently the Confederations Cup junket that normally precedes the World Cup proper.

 

For whatever reason, F1 has done away with non-championship races so it's stuck with few good options to trial format changes.

 

I don't think this is necessary but it does have logic, albeit in a fussy and overly meddlesome way.

[Clatter]

So they have chickened out of properly implementing this, and are doing at upto 2 events this year. Anyone seen any hints at what events this will be happening?

[Spillage]

What's the point of this exactly? Doesn't it just remove the jeopardy of teams trying to get through to Q3 on the medium tyre? Can't we just have the cars otu there going as fast as possible?

[Clatter]

What's the point of this exactly? Doesn't it just remove the jeopardy of teams trying to get through to Q3 on the medium tyre? Can't we just have the cars otu there going as fast as possible?

Means they don't have to take tyres to a race weekend that never actually get used.

[sheSgoTthElooK]

If, when, why, what? Which do you chose the hard or soft option...how much do you need... as good old Pet Shop Boys used to sing along...

 

First time, that I read this, JIT. What to say? They're too afraid to implement it for the whole season, so they do it for two races. Couldn't figure out which races either. 

 

They should announce it beforehand. Well, they have two days left... 

 

[TomNokoe]

So they have chickened out of properly implementing this, and are doing at upto 2 events this year. Anyone seen any hints at what events this will be happening?

This was always the plan, no?

[Bleu]

I'm not really in favour of the rule test but I think it should be done on one circuit with a softer and one with a harder compound range.

 

Taking away the events where the sprint race is on the program I don't see it happening, so my picks would be Canada and Netherlands.

[Clatter]

I'm not really in favour of the rule test but I think it should be done on one circuit with a softer and one with a harder compound range.

 

Taking away the events where the sprint race is on the program I don't see it happening, so my picks would be Canada and Netherlands.

 

I don't think the sprint races should be on the same compounds as the GP.

[sketchy2001]

I like the idea but why not go further?

 

How about setting the grid by reverse championship position (except 1st event) or reverting to the original "grid by lot" system?

That would all but guarantee a mixed-up grid every race.

 

You can still have a balls-2-the-wall timed session to ensure that all cars are capable of hitting 107% (or whatever metric) using the softest rubber.

An added interest is every driver/team can decided whether to show their hand in advance, no-one can know who is actually the fastest until the race.

 

As has been said earlier, when you sort the cars so that the fastest is at the front, why would you then expect exciting racing?

[midgrid]

Autosport is reporting that a new system of tyre allocation and use for qualifying will be trialled at Imola, and a further event after the summer break.

Each driver's tyre allocation will be reduced from 13 sets to 11 over the weekend. In qualifying, drivers must run the hard compound in Q1, mediums in Q2 and softs in Q3. A wet session will reset the situation to a free choice.

https://www.autospor...iment/10439379/

[Seanspeed]

This is gonna make it much harder for bottom teams to pull an upset, and makes it easier for the top teams to get through with less pressure.  No worrying about whether their time on harder tires will be 'good enough' since nobody is gonna be able to put on softer tires to go faster.  Which will probably also make for less exciting finishes to Q1 and Q2. 

 

And it retains the notion that bottom teams will need to use more tires to try and get through, and have less available for the race than the top teams.   

 

All to save two sets of tires per driver per race, which even if adopted immediately going forward from Imola, would mean saving on 72 sets of tires per season.  I'm all for cost and waste savings and all that, but this feels pretty minimal for the likely dent in qualifying excitement. 

 

Just my first impression, at least.  Maybe other people will have a different perspective of how this'll play out. 

 

EDIT: Ha, we seemed to have this topic last year already, where I had a very different take! lol Embarrassing. 

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 March 2023 - 10:45.

[TomNokoe]

I think the real reason they've done this is to build a crescendo of laptime for more casual fans.

[Disgrace]

Means they don't have to take tyres to a race weekend that never actually get used.

 

They could start with not hauling the monsoon tyres around the world, which at best get used for a few laps behind the SC every few months.

[Ruusperi]

Hopefully bottom teams won't even bother going out, meaning that top teams don't have to go out either, so we're watching empty track for the last 10 minutes of Q1.

Didn't they learn anything from Bernie's qualifying fiasco of '16.

[kumo7]

I think the real reason they've done this is to build a crescendo of laptime for more casual fans.

 

This might be the intention. Public manipulation. Reminds me of Gladiator with toxic injections. 

Where is the "pure" racing gone?

[chrcol]

I like it, so many races where hard is allocated but not used.

[Goron3]

I think the real reason they've done this is to build a crescendo of laptime for more casual fans.

From Pirelli's POV this makes a lot of sense you know. If they used this format across every race it saves approximately 3600 tyres a season.

[pdac]

From Pirelli's POV this makes a lot of sense you know. If they used this format across every race it saves approximately 3600 tyres a season.

 

Or they could simply just use just one compound and not bring several different ones.

[YamahaV10]

Pretty soon they will want to make tires out of 10% bamboo for environmental virtue signalling. We step ever closer to when some teams will reject it. And then we have the makings of a split. Like the indycar split in 1979/96. The series will fracture.

A new series with naturally asperated V10's , with mid 2000's weights and measures and tunnel floors , would look awfully good for Red Bull and Ferrari to use for their own new series

Edited by YamahaV10, 15 March 2023 - 00:39.

[YamahaV10]

From Pirelli's POV this makes a lot of sense you know. If they used this format across every race it saves approximately 3600 tyres a season.

Save 3600 tires and not change one mind about how environmental the series is. F1 could cut their fuel usage by more than half and use the most efficient engines in the world (oh wait) and it wouldn't change one mind about how environmental it is.

I am fine with changing all these rules but not if it's for environmental reasons.