38 replies to this topic

[cpbell]

I've just been watching (mainly due to my father being a motorcycle racing enthusiast) coverage of the British Superbike championship from Donington Park.  In one of the junior races for youngsters on small-capacity machines, the race finished in a dead heat; times were identical to the thousandth of a second, and the photo finish, shown on screen, demonstrated that there was no visible winner whatsoever.  How often has a dead heat been declared in our form of motorsport, though?  I'm aware of two instances of attempted dead heats - Le Mans 1966 being the obvious example, and the US GP in 2002, but I'm not aware of any instances of a dead heat being the official result.

Edited by cpbell, 22 May 2022 - 15:03.

[ReWind]

Mike Parkes & Ludovico Scarfiotti in the 1967 Gran Premio di Siracusa.

[Collombin]

Mike Parkes & Ludovico Scarfiotti in the 1967 Gran Premio di Siracusa.

A valid answer to the question asked but I don't think they actually did cross the line in a dead heat, despite it being the official result.

Edited by Collombin, 22 May 2022 - 15:36.

[small block]

Reine Wisell (Chevron B15) and Tim Schenken (Brabham BT28) in the Prix de Paris Formula 3 final at Montlhery, June 8 1969.

Edited by small block, 22 May 2022 - 15:40.

[Allen Brown]

Jonathan Williams and Tino Brambilla in a F3 race at Monza 4 September 1966.

And, rather more importantly, Bev Bond and Chris Williams in a libre race at Oulton Park 10 November 1968, and Frank Keane and John Smith in the Boxing Day libre at Mondello Park seven weeks later

[cpbell]

Mike Parkes & Ludovico Scarfiotti in the 1967 Gran Premio di Siracusa.

Thanks!

[cpbell]

Jonathan Williams and Tino Brambilla in a F3 race at Monza 4 September 1966.

And, rather more importantly, Bev Bond and Chris Williams in a libre race at Oulton Park 10 November 1968, and Frank Keane and John Smith in the Boxing Day libre at Mondello Park seven weeks later

Two instances in less than two months is very surprising!

[cpbell]

Interesting to note that these cases pre-date modern computerised timing.

[Tim Murray]

Here’s an earlier thread on a similar topic:

Which was the closest finish ever?

which mentions another dead heat:

While it was not GP racing, a dead heat did occur at the Easter meeting at Goodwood in 1961.
Tony Maggs (Cooper-BMC) and Peter Arundell (Lotus-Ford) dead heated in the Formula Junior race.
Maggs' Cooper had the nose foreshortened in a first lap accident. Maybe if that hadn't happened he would have been declared the winner.

[Perruqueporte]

Slightly off this particular topic….

Interesting and probably inevitable that most times something like this has happened, there has been much gnashing of teeth and debate before a result and an individual winner has been declared. Which suggests that most if not all governing bodies are reluctant or refusing to admit the possibility that a dead heat or a draw (as it is called in other sports) is acceptable.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if a dead heat could be celebrated as an equal achievement by all parties, in the best traditions of what many of us consider to be real “sport”.

Christopher W.

[9203RW]

Nick Brittan (Fraser Imp) and John Young (Superspeed Anglia), Spring Grove up to 1000cc saloon race at Brands Hatch, August 1966. My first visit to Brands!

[Sterzo]

Interesting to note that these cases pre-date modern computerised timing.

And I don't think cameras were set up for photo finishes in motor racing, although they were used in horse racing. So it was a case of the timekeepers peering through a window, maybe at a slight angle, and then debating what they'd seen.

[Rob G]

And I don't think cameras were set up for photo finishes in motor racing, although they were used in horse racing. So it was a case of the timekeepers peering through a window, maybe at a slight angle, and then debating what they'd seen.

 

They had them at Daytona for the first Daytona 500, which was fortunate, because the race ended in a photo finish that took a few days to sort out. 

[Michael Ferner]

You have to worry somewhat when they have a photo, and STILL it takes "a few days to sort out" 

[Collombin]

Especially when the true winner is pretty easy to determine from the photo. Maybe the roll of film got mislaid for a while at the developers - any chance the photographer used the Swindon branch of Boots chemists?

Edited by Collombin, 22 May 2022 - 21:19.

[pete53]

Jack Sears and Sir John Whitmore ( both in Lotus Cortinas) finished in a dead heat for 3rd place in the Saloon Car race at Silverstone at the 1965 Grand Prix meeting.

[Catalina Park]

I've just been watching (mainly due to my father being a motorcycle racing enthusiast) coverage of the British Superbike championship from Donington Park.  In one of the junior races for youngsters on small-capacity machines, the race finished in a dead heat; times were identical to the thousandth of a second, and the photo finish, shown on screen, demonstrated that there was no visible winner whatsoever.  How often has a dead heat been declared in our form of motorsport, though?  I'm aware of two instances of attempted dead heats - Le Mans 1966 being the obvious example, and the US GP in 2002, but I'm not aware of any instances of a dead heat being the official result.

There was no attempted dead heat at Le Mans in 1966 despite what Ford and Shelby said, it wasn't even that close.

Edited by Catalina Park, 23 May 2022 - 06:11.

[Stephen W]

In hillclimbs where timing is to the nearest hundredth of a second there have been occasional dead heats for British Championship round wins and places. 

 

The dead heats for round wins:

2001 Wiscombe Park, Round 2 (Jul 28) - Tim Mason (Gould-Judd V8) and Graham Wight Jr (Gould-Cosworth V6);

2007 Wiscombe Park, Round 2 (Jul 29) - Martin Groves (Gould-NME V8) and Trevor Willis (OMS-Powertec V8);

2010 Gurston Down, Round 2 (May 30) - Chris Merrick (Gould-Judd V8) and Scott Moran (Gould-NME V8);

2010 Shelsley Walsh, Round 1 (Aug 22) - Chris Merrick (Gould-Judd V8) and Scott Moran (Gould-NME V8);

2014 Val de Terres, Round 2 (Jul 19) - Jos Goodyear (GWR-Suzuki Raptor) and Will Hall (Force-AER WH); and

2015 Gurston Down, Round 1 (May 24) - Scott Moran (Gould-NME V8) and Alex Summers (Gould-NME V8) sharing the same GR61X

[Vitesse2]

In the 1938 Spa 24 Hours - notably wet, even for Spa! - the BMW team finished in line abreast in an attempt to engineer a dead-heat for third place, but as it had been a Le Mans style start the organisers placed them in ascending race number order, awarding third to von Schaumburg-Lippe/Roese, fourth to Heinemann/Brudes and fifth to Briem/Scholz.

[cpbell]

There was no attempted dead heat at Le Mans in 1966 despite what Ford and Shelby said, it wasn't even that close.

My apologies - I thought there was a half-hearted attempt on the part of the Ford management.

[Collombin]

My apologies - I thought there was a half-hearted attempt on the part of the Ford management.

There was.

This came up in RC yesterday, and it was claimed that if Miles had finished just ahead of McLaren, he might still have lost because the McLaren/Amon car had started the race about 14 metres further back. Sounds like a recipe for utter chaos - surely the relative starting positions would only have come into play (if at all) as a tie-breaker in the event of an apparent dead heat at the finish line?

[Catalina Park]

The Le Mans organisers said that in the event of a dead heat the result would go to the car that covered the most distance. There was no dead heat so the rule didn't apply.

If Miles had finished in front of McLaren there would have been no dead heat and Miles would have won.

Ford and Shelby had PR people. Holman and Moody didn't.

[Charlieman]

I have seen what appeared to be a dead heat in a historic clubby race. The judgement was something like 0.005 seconds using transponder data. Nine inches at 100 mph. So mount your transponder up front.

[ensign14]

I have seen what appeared to be a dead heat in a historic clubby race. The judgement was something like 0.005 seconds using transponder data. Nine inches at 100 mph. So mount your transponder up front.

 

I think that was nearly a factor at Indy 1992; the Galmer 'ponder was at the back...

[Collombin]

The Le Mans organisers said that in the event of a dead heat the result would go to the car that covered the most distance. There was no dead heat so the rule didn't apply.

If Miles had finished in front of McLaren there would have been no dead heat and Miles would have won.

Thank you - as I suspected. Anything else would have been crazy.

[P0wderf1nger]

Easter Monday, 28 March 1932, in the 10-lap, 12-mile Norfolk Lightning Mountain Handicap at Brooklands. Whitney Straight in a borrowed, unblown 2-litre Type 35 Bugatti gained precisely the 30 secs Ebby had given WK Faulkner in a supercharged Type 43 Bugatti.

 

It was only Brooklands' second-ever dead-heat, after the one recorded in the opening meeting of 1907. 

Edited by P0wderf1nger, 23 May 2022 - 11:43.

[Collombin]

I think that was nearly a factor at Indy 1992; the Galmer 'ponder was at the back...

Wasn't it at the front (or further forward than in other cars anyway), meaning the real victory margin was actually even slimmer than the official results show?

Could have been very awkward if Goodyear had been a few inches ahead at the finish!

[ChiliFan]

The only other two I know of in motorcycle racing in the age of electronic timing:

 

1992 All Japan 250cc Championship at Suzuka - Tetsuya Harada & Tadayuki Okada

1995 British Superbike Supercup at Snetterton - James Whitham & Steve Hislop

 

In both cases the video evidence of the finish was inconclusive and both riders were declared winners.

[Vitesse2]

Easter Monday, 28 March 1932, in the 10-lap, 12-mile Norfolk Lightning Mountain Handicap at Brooklands. Whitney Straight in a borrowed, unblown 2-litre Type 35 Bugatti gained precisely the 30 secs Ebby had given WK Faulkner in a supercharged Type 43 Bugatti.

 

It was only Brooklands' second-ever dead-heat, after the one recorded in the opening meeting of 1907. 

Which, if you think about it, means it was the only time Ebby got it exactly right!

[P0wderf1nger]

Which, if you think about it, means it was the only time Ebby got it exactly right!

 

Quite. There were days when he was really on form, and at least one (Whit Monday, 5 June 1933), when he got it all wrong, with little overtaking and multiple wins for limit men. It must have been such a difficult job, especially at the start of a season. And he ran a successful musical instrument shop through the week. Fascinating bloke. 

[Geoff E]

Easter Monday, 28 March 1932, in the 10-lap, 12-mile Norfolk Lightning Mountain Handicap at Brooklands. Whitney Straight in a borrowed, unblown 2-litre Type 35 Bugatti gained precisely the 30 secs Ebby had given WK Faulkner in a supercharged Type 43 Bugatti.

 

It was only Brooklands' second-ever dead-heat, after the one recorded in the opening meeting of 1907. 

 

There was allegedly another in 1925-

 

https://www.motorspo...t-to-perfection

[subh]

The only other two I know of in motorcycle racing in the age of electronic timing:

 

1992 All Japan 250cc Championship at Suzuka - Tetsuya Harada & Tadayuki Okada

1995 British Superbike Supercup at Snetterton - James Whitham & Steve Hislop

 

In both cases the video evidence of the finish was inconclusive and both riders were declared winners.

 

Have just found the Whitham-Hislop race on YouTube:

[Risil]

The only other two I know of in motorcycle racing in the age of electronic timing:

 

1992 All Japan 250cc Championship at Suzuka - Tetsuya Harada & Tadayuki Okada

1995 British Superbike Supercup at Snetterton - James Whitham & Steve Hislop

 

In both cases the video evidence of the finish was inconclusive and both riders were declared winners.

 

Back in 2011 Hector Faubel crossed the line in a dead heat with Johann Zarco in the 125cc German Grand Prix. Faubel got the win as the tie break called for each rider's fastest lap to be taken into consideration. One of many races narrowly lost by Zarco that year. It does happen from time to time in motorcycle racing -- Jorge Lorenzo and Andrea Dovizioso had one in Qatar in 2004 -- given the closeness of competition we've seen in the Moto3 class in recent years it's surprising there's not been another.

 

If we're looking at big name races, in 1975 Barry Sheene and Giacomo Agostini finished with exactly the same time at the 500cc Dutch TT at Assen. The (secondary) sources I've turned up on Google differ about what happened next, although the one that I find most convincing (a MotoGP.com article from 8 years ago) says that Sheene was considered to be ahead by judges stationed at the finish line. In any case, Sheene was awarded the maximum score of 15 and Agostini only got 12. 

[P0wderf1nger]

There was allegedly another in 1925-

 

https://www.motorspo...t-to-perfection

Well spotted, Geoff, thank you. I took the word of Autocar, 1 Apr 32, on this, but The Bod is pretty clear on the matter in the article you've found, and he gives the sames details and some of the same times about the 1925 race on p153 of his Brooklands tome, so I've amended my text on the Whitney / Faulkner dead-heat to 'only the third...'

 

And the Easter Monday '32 race is, unquestionably, Whitney's first-ever win, in his sixth event, which is why I'm so immersed in it!

Thanks again.

 

Paul 

Edited by P0wderf1nger, 23 May 2022 - 16:59.

[subh]

Motorcycle Year (hardback book) gives the results as:

Sheene 48' 01"

Agostini 48' 01" 1

[Vitesse2]

There was allegedly another in 1925-

 

https://www.motorspo...t-to-perfection

Looks like Ebby over-reacted to that - not an unusual occurence. At the final meeting of the year Purdy's Alvis was thoroughly thrashed by George Duller's Austin in a 50 mile handicap and lost by 3 miles (over a lap!)

 

However, it is also worth noting that - according to The Times - a Miss HM Lister was leading on the eighth lap - half distance - but was black flagged due to the exhaust having fallen off her Aston Martin.

 

The 1936 one WB mentions was also on the Mountain Circuit - although The Times claimed it was the first on that circuit! Perhaps Thornton Rutter had lunched too well to recall the previous occasion?

[2F-001]

One from a meeting that I attended:
Chris Craft and Gordon Spice, 1969 British Saloon Championship at Mallory Park.

[ellrosso]

We had one at Longford in 1966 between Ross Ambrose, Elfin Streamliner and Bruno Carosi in the Bolwell Mk 5 (grey Holden 6 cyl).

[LittleChris]

Ray McCullough and Tony Rutter on Yamahas crossed the finishing line together at the end of the 1977 350 cc NW200.

 

This is the only dead heat in the history of the event.

Edited by LittleChris, 25 May 2022 - 13:34.