64 replies to this topic

[Rumblestrip]

I genuinely can‘t tell if I‘m seeing something different to everyone else here… what it looks like to me is:

Ocon uses his normal racing line and brake marker on the approach to T1. Literally no different to his previous laps, judging by F1TV.

Hamilton goes for a lunge just as the gap between Ocon‘s car and the barrier starts to reach towards its narrowest point due to the angle of the right-hand side of the pit exit coming towards Ocon‘s racing line.

In no way does Ocon do anything different to before. He doesn‘t brake any earlier than on any of the previous laps and he doesn‘t take a different line. He doesn’t steer to take space away from Hamilton, either. The only thing that‘s different is Hamilton‘s lunge, which comes just as Ocon lifts off the throttle going under the TAG Heuer sign. By that point, Ocon’s committed to his line into T1 as Hamilton rapidly comes up to his right rear tyre, seeking space with his massive overspeed where there obviously isn‘t going to be any.

I don‘t see that as a penalty-worthy action from Ocon at all.

(As a sidenote, I feel the debate around this incident here and elsewhere would have greatly benefitted from either the availability of Hamilton’s or Ocon‘s forward-facing camera. Alas…)

 

After initially seeing the clip I thought it seemed like a clear mistake from Ocon. Hamilton dives up the inside and Ocon shuffles him into the wall. However...

 

...on turning up the sound on the clip you can hear that, like you say, Ocon has already lifted the throttle and is starting to brake on the normal racing line before Hamilton is alongside. Effectively, Hamilton is diving into a narrowing space with respect to the racing line after Ocon has already started braking. The only thing Ocon can do to avoid contact is to move under braking.

 

Also, I agree that more than one angle of this would really help.

[jpm2019]

 https://twitter.com/...689464749346816

 

 

From here I thought Hamilton had nowhere to go and it's Ocon's fault. On the other hand there was really any room to overtake. Hamilton was going for a gap that wasn't there. So I think Hamilton mistake. Again the Hamilton tank had no damage. 

 

 

However I find it weird we are discussing cars crossing the yellow line on exit but then this is acceptable ?

Edited by jpm2019, 31 May 2022 - 17:46.

[P123]

It wasn't acceptable, therefore Ocon was penalised.  For whatever move doesn't matter.  You don't chop a car when it is predominantly up your inside and cause contact, and you don't move in the braking zone and squeeze a car up against the wall.  Fairly simple.  Slightly different degrees of naughtiness, but he was fortunate to take just a 5s penalty.  It took a few days to weasel it out as 'Hamilton's fault', but the attempted reasoning above is unconvincing.

[RekF1]

It wasn't acceptable, therefore Ocon was penalised.  For whatever move doesn't matter.  You don't chop a car when it is predominantly up your inside and cause contact, and you don't move in the braking zone and squeeze a car up against the wall.  Fairly simple.  Slightly different degrees of naughtiness, but he was fortunate to take just a 5s penalty.  It took a few days to weasel it out as 'Hamilton's fault', but the attempted reasoning above is unconvincing.

There's no way if the roles were reversed that anyone here would be blaming Ocon.

[smitten]

There's no way if the roles were reversed that anyone here would be blaming Ocon.

I would say you haven't been here long, but you have! 

[ANF]

It does actually seem like Ocon got penalised for the turning in incident reading all the interviews and reports which is shocking

Yep, I've checked the timing. Ocon wasn't penalised for the late chop across the pit exit and contact with Hamilton's front wing, seen from Ocon's rearward-facing camera, because that happened at 16:36. He was penalised for the incident on the previous lap, at 16:34, where he turned in on Hamilton at Sainte-Dévote.

 

(Which I actually think is fine. Turning in on a car that is alongside at the apex should be a penalty. Ocon's radio suggested he didn't even know he was there. The other incident was more difficult to judge: Did Hamilton go for a gap that was already closing? Hamilton's onboard was offline on F1TV at the time, and it probably was for the stewards as well.)

Edited by ANF, 31 May 2022 - 18:44.

[monolulu]

Yep, I've checked the timing. Ocon wasn't penalised for the late chop across the pit exit and contact with Hamilton's front wing, seen from Ocon's rearward-facing camera, because that happened at 16:36. He was penalised for the incident on the previous lap, at 16:34, where he turned in on Hamilton at Sainte-Dévote.

 

(Which I actually think is fine. Turning in on a car that is alongside at the apex should be a penalty. Ocon's radio suggested he didn't even know he was there. The other incident was more difficult to judge: Did Hamilton go for a gap that was already closing? Hamilton's onboard was offline on F1TV at the time, and it probably was for the stewards as well.)

Lewis was nearly fully along side until Ocon started moving over. I thought this was far more worthy of a penalty for Ocon than the first incident, very surprised he got away with it.

[Clrnc]

(Which I actually think is fine. Turning in on a car that is alongside at the apex should be a penalty. Ocon's radio suggested he didn't even know he was there. The other incident was more difficult to judge: Did Hamilton go for a gap that was already closing? Hamilton's onboard was offline on F1TV at the time, and it probably was for the stewards as well.)

Nah that pen is ridiculous. Hamilton was never ever going to make that move work. It was even more optimistic than a dive bomb. Ocon was just driving his normal line and same braking point.

[Silberpfeil]

 https://twitter.com/...689464749346816

 

 

From here I thought Hamilton had nowhere to go and it's Ocon's fault. On the other hand there was really any room to overtake. Hamilton was going for a gap that wasn't there. So I think Hamilton mistake. Again the Hamilton tank had no damage. 

 

 

However I find it weird we are discussing cars crossing the yellow line on exit but then this is acceptable ?

 

Yeah, The fact that drivers are even allowed to cross the yellow line has been a gripe of mine for some years. It’s not that relevant when lapping in dry conditions, but if you try a divebomb or want a straight braking zone in the wet, the pit exit does kinda lead across it.

[ANF]

Nah that pen is ridiculous. Hamilton was never ever going to make that move work. It was even more optimistic than a dive bomb. Ocon was just driving his normal line and same braking point.

I totally disagree. Look at the picture below. Already at this point Hamilton had his front tyre ahead of Ocon's rear tyre. With Hamilton alongside on the inside, Ocon's entry to the corner was compromised and he should have left Hamilton racing room on the inside, which he didn't do (either that or he could have outbraked Hamilton and cleared him before the turn-in point, which he didn't do).

[chrcol]

lead driver gives room for what? he hit his rear tyre

that move was not a committed move from Lewis. He backed out of it too late

Lost for words here, if any part of a car is in front of the rear of another car space should be given.  Regardless of backing out or commitment.

 

So you basically just said you think its ok to turn into another car. 

 

If racing followed that rule then all the leader driver has to do is wait for the car behind to start a move, and then simply turn into them crying "its my racing line". I hope you at least understand how flawed that is.

 

As I said if Ocon didnt turn in, and Lewis pulled of the overtake, you would be clapping him.  Racing overtakes require both drivers respecting each other for them to work cleanly.

 

If Ocon was already turning before Lewis got in front of the rear of his car, then maybe.

 

Surprised its the popular opinion on here that its ok to turn in on a car simply because you ahead.

Edited by chrcol, 31 May 2022 - 21:34.

[chrcol]

After initially seeing the clip I thought it seemed like a clear mistake from Ocon. Hamilton dives up the inside and Ocon shuffles him into the wall. However...

 

...on turning up the sound on the clip you can hear that, like you say, Ocon has already lifted the throttle and is starting to brake on the normal racing line before Hamilton is alongside. Effectively, Hamilton is diving into a narrowing space with respect to the racing line after Ocon has already started braking. The only thing Ocon can do to avoid contact is to move under braking.

 

Also, I agree that more than one angle of this would really help.

Braking later than the other car is a valid racing move as long as you dont crash into the back of them, its not when Ocon starts braking, its when he starts turning in.

Edited by chrcol, 31 May 2022 - 21:39.

[MikeTekRacing]

Lost for words here, if any part of a car is in front of the rear of another car space should be given.  Regardless of backing out or commitment.

 

So you basically just said you think its ok to turn into another car. 

 

If racing followed that rule then all the leader driver has to do is wait for the car behind to start a move, and then simply turn into them crying "its my racing line". I hope you at least understand how flawed that is.

 

As I said if Ocon didnt turn in, and Lewis pulled of the overtake, you would be clapping him.  Racing overtakes require both drivers respecting each other for them to work cleanly.

 

If Ocon was already turning before Lewis got in front of the rear of his car, then maybe.

 

Surprised its the popular opinion on here that its ok to turn in on a car simply because you ahead.

i think you should have some more overlap to claim space. Just sticking your nose in the rear wheel is not "alongside"

 

Look at Miami - with Alonso ramming Gasly in the rear wheel. You can't expect the car in front to yield there some racing room.
 

I understand your point though - there has to be some sort of line where we say the car in front has to leave room. My take is you have to be at least half way through the inside for claiming that room. 

[chrcol]

i think you should have some more overlap to claim space. Just sticking your nose in the rear wheel is not "alongside"

 

Look at Miami - with Alonso ramming Gasly in the rear wheel. You can't expect the car in front to yield there some racing room.
 

I understand your point though - there has to be some sort of line where we say the car in front has to leave room. My take is you have to be at least half way through the inside for claiming that room. 

I can agree to that, I expect the stewards will be aware that some drivers deliberately turn in as they prefer the risk of the consequences to losing position, many a retired driver has admitted to this including Brundle.

So will be a judgement call if they think its that, maybe a mistake where driver didnt check if another car is there or if the driver behind is trying to do a move thats not reasonable to attempt, in this case they seemed to decide it was one of the first two scenarios.

There was two incidents, one more clear cut than the other, still unclear which one the penalty is for?

[MikeTekRacing]

I can agree to that, I expect the stewards will be aware that some drivers deliberately turn in as they prefer the risk of the consequences to losing position, many a retired driver has admitted to this including Brundle.

So will be a judgement call if they think its that, maybe a mistake where driver didnt check if another car is there or if the driver behind is trying to do a move thats not reasonable to attempt, in this case they seemed to decide it was one of the first two scenarios.

There was two incidents, one more clear cut than the other, still unclear which one the penalty is for?

i completely agree with you on the chaotic wheel to wheel racing.
i'd be very supportive of forcing drivers to leave room. I'd support the other too up to a degree, but whatever they pick they need to be consistent...

 

and they are not, which is frustrating as it's a lottery trying to get wheel to wheel with somebody.