122 replies to this topic

[mariner]

One the the greatest CanAm cars the Tony Southgate Shadow DN4 at Road America

 

 

Remember to turn the volume WAY up !

[davidbuckden]

I loved Can-Am too.  So much to like.  Those huge engines and the noise they made, the technical and aesthetic innovations and the fact that here in England there was a lot of mystique around the series as there was no TV coverage and little opportunity to see the cars in the flesh.  But, for me, the series was brought to life by the excellent and witty reportage from Pete Lyons. The whole Shadow story is intriguing and Follmer's courage in even getting in the original tiny one, let alone driving it in anger, was inspirational.  At the time, the Bruce and Denny show was something I resented as they were too successful, depriving the series of a real competitive dimension.  But one shouldn't have a downer on people doing a job supremely well, and, nowadays, I love to see the big papaya M8s of any iteration - and the regular entry in recent times of Dean Forward's M8F to historic events has been very much appreciated. Other highlights for me were the Lola T260 and JYS's involvement, and the Chaparral 2J. As a big fan of Porsche, it was very pleasing to see Jo Siffert campaigning the 917/10 in '71, but I also have to feel very disappointed that the 917/30 eventually killed off the 'proper' Can-Am, even if, in the process, Shadow was able to take a championship. If, like me, you enjoy just ogling charismatic racing cars, get yourself a copy of Pete's book: Can-Am Cars in Detail, (ISBN 1935007114), and cross your fingers that all the stimulating imagery it presents doesn't threaten the maintenance of your eyesight!

 

[Doug Nye]

For my taste the deep-throated rumble of a large-capacity V8 is certainly quite impressive.  The ground-shaking effect of a big V8 grumbling, rumbling and revving close by in a race paddock is always an unforgettable experience. And the ground-shaking, atmosphere-thumping effect of a 2,000-plus horsepower dragster revving high at close quarters is even more unforgettable, if that can be possible.

 

BUT my personal preference has always been for the spine-tingling wail of a really high-revving V12, or  V10, or of almost any really high-revving multi-cylinder engine (like a certain V16) unstrangled, unmuted by a perishing turbocharger...and for my taste they are what spell 'real' race engineering from a blank sheet of paper as opposed to some great gormless and hefty production lump, however well-modified or well-tuned.  

 

It's for that same deeply-ingrained reason that I always considered Formula 5000 cars to be just uncultured, cheap-expedient lumps of glump - however entertaining they could be when really well driven.  

 

And it's for the same deeply-ingrained reason that I have never, ever been a fan of touring car racing.  

 

While I'm very happy that we all have our own often different preferences - and (within reason) I applaud them all - I have never really understood how people can really be so impressed by the everyday and ordinary, when there are so many wonderful, technology-stretching, imagination-stretching, budget-burning products of really wild ambition by which to be truly amazed and enthralled... 

 

I'm well aware this could be construed as my being a racing car snob, yet I also adored most of those production-based open-wheeler classes such as Formula Junior, Formula 2, Formula 3 - yes, even B and Atlantic.  But I will admit I have always absolutely glazed over at Formula Ford and even more so the various iterations of what was it called...thingummybob...oh yes, Formula flipping Vee.  

 

Each to their own, eh?

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

When you were, as were we in the Colonies, brought up on second-hand sounds from Europe and a mix of those production-based sounds...

 

To hear the 'real' noises was but a dream. Even when the BRM V8s and the FWMV came here for the Tasman, we were told that the sound was different to their 1.5-litre iterations, though they still sounded good. The cracker of a sound of a racing engine was best heard as twilight approached at Warwick Farm, a late-Saturday 'discretionary' session for ones who needed 'just a few more laps, please,' from Mr Sykes and got their wish.

 

The ultimate of these was Niel Allen in the M4a, alone on the circuit, the FVA wailing in fifth down Hume Straight, going down through the cogs for Creek, and then up a gear or two and working, on and off the throttle constantly, through the Esses. The echo of the unmuffled screamer being used to its full was unforgettable.

 

By the time we got a field of F1 cars here they were turbocharged, going 'Bang!' in the loudest of ways, so they were no longer the screamers which brought such delight - even if the mastery of technology was being shown in many ways. Renault's compressed air valve return and near-unlimited revs included.

 

The thunder of F5000s was what we had to live with for a while, and as they were so quick when well-driven they were most impressive en masse and a race start, particularly at Phillip Island was a joy to be heard. Ask the flock of seagulls at South Curve.

 

It was, however, the seven-litre Cobra which taught me about ground-shaking events...

[GregThomas]

My first love was the crackle of a Manx Norton on the megga. 

 

Due to 20 plus years of building and racing small multis I'm afraid that the high pitched, high revving scream is now too familiar.

You can have too much of small fours pulling 14 grand (current thousands) to 18grand (1980's 250 fours)

 

I'm with the Yanks who say that the sound of a real race engine makes your beer go flat

[Ray Bell]

I forgot to mention my long-held fancy for a high-revving inline six...

 

Gained hanging over the fence at Westmead Speedway, where Repco Hi-Power heads adorned the old Holden sixes and made them really HOWL!

 

And, in later life, made me wonder what a K3 might sound like.

[helioseism2]

 And the ground-shaking, atmosphere-thumping effect of a 2,000-plus horsepower dragster revving high at close quarters is even more unforgettable, if that can be possible.

 

 

Today they are at 12,000 horsepower!

[lyntonh]

When you were, as were we in the Colonies, brought up on second-hand sounds from Europe and a mix of those production-based sounds...

 

To hear the 'real' noises was but a dream. Even when the BRM V8s and the FWMV came here for the Tasman, we were told that the sound was different to their 1.5-litre iterations, though they still sounded good. The cracker of a sound of a racing engine was best heard as twilight approached at Warwick Farm, a late-Saturday 'discretionary' session for ones who needed 'just a few more laps, please,' from Mr Sykes and got their wish.

 

The ultimate of these was Niel Allen in the M4a, alone on the circuit, the FVA wailing in fifth down Hume Straight, going down through the cogs for Creek, and then up a gear or two and working, on and off the throttle constantly, through the Esses. The echo of the unmuffled screamer being used to its full was unforgettable.

 

By the time we got a field of F1 cars here they were turbocharged, going 'Bang!' in the loudest of ways, so they were no longer the screamers which brought such delight - even if the mastery of technology was being shown in many ways. Renault's compressed air valve return and near-unlimited revs included.

 

The thunder of F5000s was what we had to live with for a while, and as they were so quick when well-driven they were most impressive en masse and a race start, particularly at Phillip Island was a joy to be heard. Ask the flock of seagulls at South Curve.

 

It was, however, the seven-litre Cobra which taught me about ground-shaking events...

Were you standing next to us at Creek that afternoon, Ray ? 
Yes, I know, you were at the usual flagpoint.

I look at my photos of Niel from that session, and all I can hear is that music.

Edited by lyntonh, 03 June 2022 - 23:12.

[Lee Nicolle]

Today they are at 12,000 horsepower!

Street cars are at 3000 plus hp!! With hairdryers. For drag racing only.

[Lee Nicolle]

I forgot to mention my long-held fancy for a high-revving inline six...

 

Gained hanging over the fence at Westmead Speedway, where Repco Hi-Power heads adorned the old Holden sixes and made them really HOWL!

 

And, in later life, made me wonder what a K3 might sound like.

A good Holden midget engine howled without the Repco head.

You should hear a Repco though with zoomies. The Ian R Jones Rowley Pk supermodified was used for mud sprints, circuit sprints etc and used for a period 6 pipes out the side.

Those enginess sound really sharp with no flywheel. At AIR Jones broke  crank,, at the flywheel flange. Coasted back into the paddock in the centre with no drive but the engine was still running,, rap rap. Sounded great.  That was the last that car was seen for quite a while.

Not quite a CanAm big block though the Bill Wigzell driven 'Suddenly'  Supermodified got a bit closer with an L88 427 Chev. And that had around 700hp in  1970. And ran to about 7500 rpm. Car is still around, was sold very recently from the Fisher family who had built and owned it until then. 

[GregThomas]

In the Formula Pacific days of our main race series here in NZ, we got used to BDA's, Nissans and Toyotas pulling high revs. All sounded pretty much the same - and a bit ho-hum after the Formula 5000 days.

One year at Wigram, a mate of mine was riding a Suzuki 400 four - which was getting the attention of the Pacific mechanics between races. They were coming over to see what it was as he was going past the pits pulling about 15,000 rpm....Simple answer was - no rev limiter fitted. He did one more meeting then sold it, New owner got 2 meetings out of it before it went bang.

One of the best engine notes I've ever heard was when Amon drove a March here with the Cosworth version of the Ford V6 from the Capri fitted. Usual Chris - wide open and handle what happens when it happens. Spectacular drive - and noise.

[Doug Nye]

For we spoiled onlookers here in the northern hemisphere, I forgot to mention some other important sources of spine-tingling mechanical music.  For me these include almost any race-bred straight-8, especially the W196R and S Mercedes-Benz engines (as extolled in another thread) and of course the supercharged twin-cam Alfa Romeo 8C family.

 

Forgive me for under-estimating current dragster power output...

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 04 June 2022 - 08:07.

[helioseism2]

I like them all.

[GregThomas]

I've been lucky enough to hear a couple of straight eights. just happened to be testing at local circuit Ruapuna when the guys from Auto Restorations have been out testing/running in a customer rebuild.

P3 Alfa sounded very nice, not as crisp as I'd have expected. Got a laugh from the two guys in driving suits when I walked up and asked "which of you is Nuvolari today ? "

 

Peter Giddings prewar blown 3 litre GP car (can't remember the model } was nice and crisp. The guys told me that Rob Selby had trouble getting the blower gears quiet. I listened - and told them to give Rob my compliments. It was probably quieter than when first built.

 

To get back to the OP's big bangers. Yes, a few years back we had a visit from the Group 7 boys. Very impressive. Up close and personal, some fine - if large - engineering on view.

The circuit they ran on - Levels, at Timaru - is too small for them but they turned on a show to remember. And a sound which i seem to remember Henry Manney saying was "likely to wake any sleeping dinosaurs "

[brucemoxon]

It's like an orchestra. All the different sounds come together to make a beautiful symphony.

From the bass-line of the lumpy V8s, the brass section blare of the 12s and inline sixes. The high end taken by the four-bangers. 

 

I've been lucky enough to have heard Ferrari's 312, Cosworth DFVs, Matra's marvellous 12 pot screamer. And big-block blown V8s at the drags (dear god...). Of late, our new S5000 single-seaters. They're a bit like a modern iteration of F5000 - with Ford Coyote crate engines and a bit less drama than the old cars. 

 

Most of them sound good in one way or another. Except the Hyundai series. Not them. Or Mitsubishi turbos - yuck. Like a duck farting. 

 

BRM (Yeah, I've heard them too - a couple of different V12s. Wow)

[mariner]

I will apologise here for diverting my own post into a minor anti-government rant but speaking of engine noise the UK government is trialling technology linking roadside microphones, number plate cameras and speed guns so as to automatically identify noisy vehicles.

Current legislation allows the police to fine you for “excessive noise" but it is subjective and needs police time so this system is automated.

Now don’t get me wrong, making too much noise regularly in residential streets etc is utterly wrong. The problem is how the testing was done. The goal per the government is to address "complaints about noise [which] are highest among the most economically deprived areas”.

Fine but the testing is being done in West Meon in Hampshire and on the Marchwood bypass also in Hampshire.

The West Meon site “was identified through local recommendations and discussions with the local police that highlighted this location as an area that attracts motorbikes due to the presence of a biker-run café on the A32, Loomies Moto Café, that hosts weekly motorbike meetings on Wednesday evenings”. The Marchwood site "was identified as one of the major access roads for the Beaulieu Motor Museum which hosts a number of motor events throughout the year”. The Marchwood Bypass was expected to be subject to higher traffic volumes compared to Site 1, potentially including modified or excessively noisy vehicles driving to the Motor Museum on special events.

Anybody who knows Hampshire will know that West Meon is not a deprived area, in fact it is famous for its "banker’s ranches” equestrian estates!

Now remember the goal is to help "deprived areas” as these suffer the most from urban noise complaints so why pick on two rural locations specifically because they have connections with Classic cars and bikes?

[Doug Nye]

As a frequent user of the fast, rhythmic, Meon Valley road - just lovely on a sunny summer's evening, chasing hot air balloons in my fake C-Type - I absolutely sympathise...

 

DCN

[Charlieman]

I'm well aware this could be construed as my being a racing car snob, yet I also adored most of those production-based open-wheeler classes such as Formula Junior, Formula 2, Formula 3 - yes, even B and Atlantic.  But I will admit I have always absolutely glazed over at Formula Ford and even more so the various iterations of what was it called...thingummybob...oh yes, Formula flipping Vee.  

The thing about Formula Junior, 1.5 litre F1 and the like was that the engines delivered just about as much power as the chassis could handle. Or perhaps that the chassis was designed, minimally, to cope with expected power outputs. There was just enough of a challenge to determine who was driving well. In the case of ground shakers like CanAm and F5000, the car was so tricky to easily show up talent differences. I missed F5000 at its peak and have only seen the cars close up in recent years. The production models from March and Lola look like production racing cars to me, Surtees cars look better built, and some of the antipodeans are jolly good too. It's harder to see much beneath CanAm bodywork.

 

Having at least a little too much power for the chassis is a necessity for real racing cars. It was part of what made the transition from ground effects 3 litre F1 to 1.5 litre turbo nutters so exciting. Absolute power is exciting but two closely matched Austin Seven Specials can deliver ten minutes of fabulous, slippery low speed racing.

 

FF1600s are incredible racing cars. Once manufacturers started to build specific FF1600 cars, there was a lot of variety to solve shared problems. Every five years there was a performance leap, the cars became more expensive and a bit more fiddly to optimise. For an engineering nerd, they're interesting. 

[Bloggsworth]

I will apologise here for diverting my own post into a minor anti-government rant but speaking of engine noise the UK government is trialling technology linking roadside microphones, number plate cameras and speed guns so as to automatically identify noisy vehicles.

Current legislation allows the police to fine you for “excessive noise" but it is subjective and needs police time so this system is automated.

Now don’t get me wrong, making too much noise regularly in residential streets etc is utterly wrong. The problem is how the testing was done. The goal per the government is to address "complaints about noise [which] are highest among the most economically deprived areas”.

Fine but the testing is being done in West Meon in Hampshire and on the Marchwood bypass also in Hampshire.

The West Meon site “was identified through local recommendations and discussions with the local police that highlighted this location as an area that attracts motorbikes due to the presence of a biker-run café on the A32, Loomies Moto Café, that hosts weekly motorbike meetings on Wednesday evenings”. The Marchwood site "was identified as one of the major access roads for the Beaulieu Motor Museum which hosts a number of motor events throughout the year”. The Marchwood Bypass was expected to be subject to higher traffic volumes compared to Site 1, potentially including modified or excessively noisy vehicles driving to the Motor Museum on special events.

Anybody who knows Hampshire will know that West Meon is not a deprived area, in fact it is famous for its "banker’s ranches” equestrian estates!

Now remember the goal is to help "deprived areas” as these suffer the most from urban noise complaints so why pick on two rural locations specifically because they have connections with Classic cars and bikes?

Because that's where they'll make the most money...

[BRG]

Trying to enforce a noise limit is opening a very large can of worms.  I know from many years of rally noise checks that it is extremely hard to conduct objective test that are unaffected by external factors.  How these 'noise cameras' will manage to filter out all the extraneous background noise form other vehicles, airplanes, cows emitting greenhouse gases, tyre noise, passing cyclists whistling, children playing etc etc etc is hard to comprehend.

[Doug Nye]

 

Deafening....  

 

DCN

[barrykm]

And then there is the 250cc Honda Six....

[Lee Nicolle]

In the Formula Pacific days of our main race series here in NZ, we got used to BDA's, Nissans and Toyotas pulling high revs. All sounded pretty much the same - and a bit ho-hum after the Formula 5000 days.

One year at Wigram, a mate of mine was riding a Suzuki 400 four - which was getting the attention of the Pacific mechanics between races. They were coming over to see what it was as he was going past the pits pulling about 15,000 rpm....Simple answer was - no rev limiter fitted. He did one more meeting then sold it, New owner got 2 meetings out of it before it went bang.

One of the best engine notes I've ever heard was when Amon drove a March here with the Cosworth version of the Ford V6 from the Capri fitted. Usual Chris - wide open and handle what happens when it happens. Spectacular drive - and noise.

You mean Formula Mundane!

[Lee Nicolle]

Trying to enforce a noise limit is opening a very large can of worms.  I know from many years of rally noise checks that it is extremely hard to conduct objective test that are unaffected by external factors.  How these 'noise cameras' will manage to filter out all the extraneous background noise form other vehicles, airplanes, cows emitting greenhouse gases, tyre noise, passing cyclists whistling, children playing etc etc etc is hard to comprehend.

Having run a  healthy Chev powered Sports Sedan noise is very subjective. Space under the car for mufflers is just about non existent so mufflers were fabricated with stainless packing. 

Philip Island,, I was pinged for noise there at 8am in the moring under heavy cloud. The TAFE guys made me a couple of droopy exhausts. I doubt they made any difference. But at 11am or so once the cloud had lifted what noise issue?? 

Sandown on Friday with noone in the grandstand and again pinged for noise. Did nothing but Saturday and Sunday what noise issue. The spectators cushoined the noise.

Speedway was similar and eventually it seems they gave up. I was chatted [not pinged]  for noise with my 6 cyl Holden Supermodified. Yet 410 Sprintcars were on the program seemingly with no issues.

The Holden is a raspy little thing with pretend mufflers. Simply small dia foot long bodies with about 20 1/4" holes drilled in the pipes then weld the 'bodies' on the outside. It does take the bark off of it. And never been dynoed with them. Does not seem to be much different power wise

[GregThomas]

You mean Formula Mundane!

Technically and aurally mundane, yes. But look at the drivers we had in them. Bunch of kamikaze youth all trying to be noticed for F1.  And a lot were.

 

I hear you in re noise and muffling. Last 20 odd years have been on Classic and Post Classic bikes - building, tuning and racing them. Noise regs are the bane of a tuner's life.

Prior to that I had a client base in speedway cars so yes, i know what you've been through.

 

The visit here by the Group 7 crowd I alluded to above was on a circuit with very strict noise regs. Enforced by a Council employee on site on the day taking noise readings.

He was at a known fixed point - and not moving - so it was exit the hairpin, idle it up a short straight, around a tight left, short shift up a gear still idling and once into the next corner, boot it. All the big V8's were doing this - and the car club had a man at the test site to engage the noise testers attention if someone forgot the procedure. Everyone had been told at drivers briefing too.  

There was a big crowd there - all to see the big bangers. If the guy had tried to shut it down, he'd have had to run for his life.

[sabrejet]

I'd like to chime in on the subject; for me there is a big difference between noise and sound. The former can be very annoying and threatens to end our beloved sport if we don't get a grip on it. Sad though that may be, the general public don't give a hoot that they're listening to a Can-Am V8 on full song or a Bourne V16. All they know is that their Sunday in the garden is being spoiled by a bunch of thoughtless souls up the road. Sad but true and if we don't engage we'll be forced to comply with something we haven't been part of.

 

But sound is a different thing. For a number of years I assumed that the Audi V12 or V6 diesels were nigh-on silent and didn't make a sound worthy of note. How wrong I was. One Friday WEC practice session at Silverstone, we were standing next to the Wing building with a circuit apparently devoid of any action. Suddenly, one of Audi's awesome R18s appeared, totally unheralded and at great speed from out of our earshot; its arrival had been shielded by the building. And what a sound! It was a combination of turbine whistle, V6 howl and probably a lot of displaced air too. Combined with extraordinary speed, it was one of the most impressive motorsport moments of my life.

 

All of which left me wondering that if we just toned down the noise on all cars by the same amount, we'd be able to enjoy an aural symphony without p*ssing off the neighbours. It also made me wonder how many other awesome-sounding vehicles we've missed over the years, simply because their voice was drowned out by a more shouty backing track?

[Sterzo]

I do like the sound (and noise) of a CanAm V8, but even better to my taste is (or was) a 100cc twin stroke kart. Beautiful sound, not too much noise.

 

Another shout here for Formula Ford. Agreed the flat sound of Kents and Duratecs is not great, but they're fabulous little cars, with drivers supplied by Rent-A-Loony. Pure racing at its best.

[Nick Planas]

From my nest in the northern part sunny(ha!) Brackley, we can sometimes hear racing/testing from Silverstone, if the wind is blowing in the right direction. It's not unpleasant and no-one I know objects to it. Why would they? After all, a sizeable chunk of the local population earns its living from the motor racing industry. However, my wife sometimes complains when the bikes are running, as the sound allegedly carries much more than the cars. What she doesn't realise is that it's the spectator bikers going up the Brackley ring-road on their way to/from Silverstone. Personally I love it - it's not all day long and it gets the heart rate up.

 

If I happen to stumble across anything that looks vaguely like a microphone at the side of the road I may be tempted to attached my sound effects machine to it - perhaps some steam engine sounds to confuse any potential prosecutor?! Or a few mooing cows?

 

The original low-revving 7-litre engine was the very first thing I heard on my very first trip to Brands as a nipper in '66, as we walked over the bridge to South Bank while the sports cars were practising. For me, though, the sound of a bunch of DFVs being hammered by the top F1 drivers of the day will always be very special.

[Bloggsworth]

I do like the sound (and noise) of a CanAm V8, but even better to my taste is (or was) a 100cc twin stroke kart. Beautiful sound, not too much noise.

 

Another shout here for Formula Ford. Agreed the flat sound of Kents and Duratecs is not great, but they're fabulous little cars, with drivers supplied by Rent-A-Loony. Pure racing at its best.

You mean the ones without A6 cams...

[Macca]

 
Deafening....  
 
DCN

Ah, just after the Ropley/Four Marks turning, with Rotherford Park on the left where there was a (non-competitive) hillclimb for a couple of years ca. 1990.

Paul M

[Doug Nye]

Indeed - there are much faster sections further south but not half as photogenic.  To return to the essential subject of this thread, I went down here once to the locally famous 'pub with no name' - a remote pub with an empty name-board frame left gaping on its tall post - in a V8 Lamborghini Urraco 2+2, with photographer Geoff Goddard in the front passenger seat, little Jenks on one rear seat and 6-foot 5-inch tall, c.18-19-stone Tony Harding (then editor of the Profile book series) on the other rear seat.  That 2-litre V8 was singing away like crazy but the significant excess load certainly took the edge off the car's straightline zip.  When we arrived at the pub Jenks slithered out from the occasional seat and the three of us then set about carefully extracting (and unfolding) poor Tony. When we had got him straightened out and standing up - which took a fair few minutes - Jenks glared disdainfully at the Lamborghini and said - "Hmm, two litres eh?  A pretend 'supercar' then..."

 

DCN

[john aston]

FF1600- the best affordable single seater racing series ever conceived , and it is still delivering - I was watching it at Cadwell yesterday , and nothing offers better pure racing . No aero, no slicks , tiny  tyres and brakes and so what if the Kent has a pretty anodyne bark?  

 

Noise is the primary reason I fell for the sport and my awful hearing is the price I have paid . There are engines of every configuration I've enjoyed , and notable amongst them have been Matra and Ferrari V and Flat 12s from the early Seventies, the stupendously theatrical  Toyota V10 F1 engine , howling flat sixes in rally and race 911s and - blue collar or not - the belligerent bellow of an angry small block in a T330 or T70 (etc) . And for sheer brutal volume the sound of a Top Fueller remains unrivalled  - sturm und drang with the volume set to 11. BRM V16 ? It's extraordinary , unique and unforgettable but ...sorry ... all a bit theatrical . 

 

I've owned some noisy road cars but tried not to upset others - there is a time and a place . And a city centre , especially in the early hours, is not the time or place for some Gulf brat  to show off the absurd noise his daft Lamborghini Huracan makes. Far too many modern performance road cars - AMGs ,BMW M cars, S Audis, Jag F Types   - make a ghastly, attention seeking  racket ,with silly pops and bangs audible for miles . I'd happily never hear one again and as far as I'm concerned  the personal liberty of the average citizen to have a quiet life is more important than the 'right ' of some adolescent idiot to show off his daft car in built up areas 

Edited by john aston, 06 June 2022 - 06:23.

[mariner]

Well if you cant make any noise on the roads anymore there are alternatives if you have a large garage space 

 

https://www.enginela...-that-won-wwii/

 

I am not sure if all the stuff on the Merlin in the article is correct but nice to see a hot rod site covering an aero engine.

 

BTW am I right in recalling that P A Wood , the RR car restoration company in Essex have serviced Merlin's for the Battle of Britain Flight?

[GreenMachine]

 

I am not sure if all the stuff on the Merlin in the article is correct but nice to see a hot rod site covering an aero engine.

 

Yes, it is nice.

 

The engine referred to as PV12 was the the Rolls Royce 'R' racing engine for the Schneider Trophy seaplane contests, it succeeded the Supermarine S4's Napier Lion in the S5 and S6..  The Merlin (PV12)  was a different engine, though it was similar in configuration and took the lessons learnt from the R (including exotic fuels and sophisticated supercharger design).  It also took a lot of debugging (once described as a triumph of development over design), but once those hurdles were passed, the rest is history as they say.  The Packhard Merlins were essentially licence built Merlins, though concessions were made to US industrial practices so there were some differences.  And the man on the Spitfire wing is not servicing a cannon, the cannon is under the big blister inboard of him - he may be servicing the gun or ammunition bay outboard of the machine guns, which being smaller, could be fitted in the thinner outboard wing profile outboard of the cannon installation.  That is probably a Spitfire Vb, with two 20mm Hispano cannon, and four .303 machine guns.  

 

The back story to the Merlin, through the PV12 to the R to the Buzzard and the Kestrel, is the stuff of books, but like all complex machines, it was built on the shoulders of its forebears as its successor the Griffon was built on the Merlin's shoulders.

[BRG]

I'd like to chime in on the subject; for me there is a big difference between noise and sound.

 

Yes!  A car need not be ear-splitting to sound great.  Coming from the rally world where silencers are required (well, more or less...) I can still appreciate the lovely sound of  Cosworth BDG powering a rally car through the forest, but not need to wear earplugs.  I have never understood the aversion of the racing community towards silencing, as if it was undermining their basic human rights.

 

When noise checks first came into rallying, it was a roadside check.  I recall a guy called Claude Dillon did it for the London Counties Association.  If you saw his SAAB parked up, you backed off smartly! I got my first top placing  on a rally when the whole LCAMC rally circus got penalised for noise on one event, but we had a standard exhaust system and got though unscathed!

 

But moving checks were so controversial, they were soon abandoned in favour of more structured static checks.  But even these were iffy.  We failed a noise check in a Metro 6R4.  The Metro had two exhausts pointing out backwards.  I asked if we could turn the car around and do the check again facing the other way, which should not have made the slightest difference, but it did and we passed!  It is all a very dark art....

Edited by BRG, 06 June 2022 - 12:56.

[MarshalMike]

Ah, just after the Ropley/Four Marks turning, with Rotherford Park on the left where there was a (non-competitive) hillclimb for a couple of years ca. 1990.

Paul M

 

Well we need something to keep the incomers satisfied, what the incessant noise from pheasants, cows, the occasional tractor and buzzards ! The section from Fareham to Corhampton was a great drive in a humble MG BGT and when Maggie ran the Bucks Head, there was always a pleasant pint waiting for the passenger. 

[Bob Riebe]

I greatly miss the sound of performance cars in the past; if it was a performance car from any maker, it was likely it rumbled to one note or another.

 

Now they usually go by no louder than a four door sedan, and the ones that do make a sound (especially Mustang) sound like they have tin-can for a muffler.

 

Back in the Seventies, Greenwood's Corvette and Shafer's Camaro shook the ground and made me smile even at an idle.

[BRG]

.. when Maggie ran the Bucks Head, there was always a pleasant pint waiting for the passenger. 

That was before she became Prime Minister then?

[nmansellfan]

Indeed - there are much faster sections further south but not half as photogenic.  To return to the essential subject of this thread, I went down here once to the locally famous 'pub with no name' - a remote pub with an empty name-board frame left gaping on its tall post - in a V8 Lamborghini Urraco 2+2, with photographer Geoff Goddard in the front passenger seat, little Jenks on one rear seat and 6-foot 5-inch tall, c.18-19-stone Tony Harding (then editor of the Profile book series) on the other rear seat.  That 2-litre V8 was singing away like crazy but the significant excess load certainly took the edge off the car's straightline zip.  When we arrived at the pub Jenks slithered out from the occasional seat and the three of us then set about carefully extracting (and unfolding) poor Tony. When we had got him straightened out and standing up - which took a fair few minutes - Jenks glared disdainfully at the Lamborghini and said - "Hmm, two litres eh?  A pretend 'supercar' then..."

 

DCN

 

I know that DSJ would not have cared in the slightest (nor you Doug, I know you're not a road car guy ), but the Urraco was never a 'supercar', it was aimed at Maserati Merak / Ferrari Dino & 308 end of the market rather than the Bora / Daytona / Countach end.  The 2 litre Urraco had 180 horses on a good day, still a good whack more than most other stuff on the road at the time (a hot Escort had 100ish?) but a chunk short of even the 3 litre Urraco, let alone the bigger boys with another couple of litres displacement and 150-200 horses.  They sure do sound like no other road-going V8, though!

 

I have wondered before if Ferruccio had been interested in racing, could Lamborghini's V8 have been the base for a DFV competitor.  It could only have happened if Lamborghini ever actually had any money in the 70's, though...

Edited by nmansellfan, 07 June 2022 - 12:04.

[JacnGille]

 

Back in the Seventies, Greenwood's Corvette and Shafer's Camaro shook the ground and made me smile even at an idle.

Sing It , Brother!!!

[JacnGille]

For those of you who may have not seen this before:

 

https://www.youtube....hakkinen can am

[sabrejet]

For those of you who may have not seen this before:

 

https://www.youtube....hakkinen can am

 

Not much gear-changing going on there!

[JacnGille]

Not much gear-changing going on there!

Five speed Hewland, not a Ferrari/Mercedes/Red Bull eight speeder.  

[BoDarvelle]

Not much gear-changing going on there!

 

Thing has enough torque one could run it around the track without shifting and not lose a tremendous amount of time.

[Doug Nye]

So much torque, no need to run through the gears...shades of Auto Union, Monaco GP, 1936; 2nd and 3rd (finishers) - 1937; 4th ...

 

DCN

[Bob Riebe]

The headlines often bally-hoo, 8,000 cc and 750 HP,  the boys running them nowadays, have well over 1,000 cc more and Fiftey Percent more HP, without trying hard.

[Adrian Beese]

Honda 1.5 litre, Richie Ginther Silverstone 1965 never heard anything like it, revs equaled pain to my tender 14 year old ears but I was hooked for life.

[E1pix]

The headlines often bally-hoo, 8,000 cc and 750 HP,  the boys running them nowadays, have well over 1,000 cc more and Fiftey Percent more HP, without trying hard.

That mostly explains it... plus today’s tires.

I roughed out the uninterrupted lap at about 2:03, whereas if memory serves Ollie’s Pole in 1974 was about a second slower.

Front straight showed on the vid as 186 mph, and I’d guess 175 in the day. Donohue's 190 in ‘73 was on the quicker backstretch, and with probably 1,300 bhp full-boost.

The *only* more impressive beast is a FFV (Formula Flippin’ Vee). ;-)

[SKL]

Nothing like the old Can Am cars!  Especially love the RA Shadow video as Road America was our "home track."  Though I don't think I was going that fast in a SRF or Spec Miata...

 

First race to watch was the USRRC in the summer of '68 or '67 and seeing Mark in the Sunoco McLaren... will never forget that,  or seeing another one of my heroes, Jo Siffert, in the 917PA a couple years later... great memories!!

[E1pix]

I was at both, too, the USRRC in ‘68 (and all of the priors at RA) where I think Donohue shared with Jerry Hansen, and in ‘71 where I got Seppi’s autograph before his impressive 2nd behind Revvie.

Eight weeks later, Siffert was gone. I was 11, he was almost certainly the first driver I’d met who died, and the sport’s realities became much more real.