147 replies to this topic

[Fatgadget]

La la La la Lola...Sorry I will get my coat.

[kumo7]

Ok Lola is back as the company, how about people who operated Lola?

[DeKnyff]

TennisUK, on 25 Jun 2022 - 09:47, said:

A T70 road car (perhaps electrified!) would be fairly cool ;)

 

If I'm not mistaken, T70s, as all the roughly contemporary 5-litre sports cars (like the Porsche 917s), were street legal and had a number plate. Or at least, they were when they left the factory, IDK if subsequent racing modifications changed that.

 

Can-Am versions not included, of course.

Edited by DeKnyff, 25 June 2022 - 17:19.

[Ben1445]

For sale: Lola, two careful owners
https://www.motorspo...-careful-owners

 

I think this is the Motorsport Magazine article which Till Bechtolsheimer read and then decided to begin enquiries. Gives details of a tour of the facility from Chris Saunders (Williams F1 wind tunnel engineer from 1986-1994, after which he moved to join Lola as head of aerodynamics) including the working wind tunnel and what it's been used for since, also through the technical archives with all the original drawings, and even original jigs for the T70. CAD data for pretty much everything Lola post 1986 is apparently sitting on the severs. 

 

Seems like they deliberately kept everything together and as functional as possible, hoping it could one day be sold on as one complete entity and revived. After former owner Martin Birrane died in 2018, the family renewed a push to sell it in this form as this was his wish. Now it seems like they have been successful in doing so. 

 

An incredible story, really.  

 

[10kDA]

DeKnyff, on 25 Jun 2022 - 16:24, said:

If I'm not mistaken, T70s, as all the period 5-litre sports cars (like the Porsche 917s), were street legal and had a number plate. Or at least, they were when they left the factory, IDK if subsequent racing modifications changed that.

 

Can-Am versions not included, of course.

Not so. The competition rules stated a certain number of examples had to be built to qualify in the sports car or GT classes rather than prototypes. Built, not sold, and those sold were intended to be raced. No mufflers was just the first and most obvious disqualifier for street use.

[Ben1445]

A reminder of what could have been had IndyCar picked Lola instead of Dallara for the 2012 season: 

 

[LolaB0860]

If it's just a choice between constructor A or constructor B, I don't particularly care who is the sole supplier of Indycar, or any open wheel spec series for that matter. Lola cars were usually more beautiful than generic Dallaras or whatever but it doesn't really matter in the end. However, if any of the non-F1 single seater championships ever opens up their doors again for multiple chassis manufacturers, I dearly hope Lola is participating in it. It is sadly very unlikely, but still.

Edited by LolaB0860, 25 June 2022 - 18:51.

[TennisUK]

The Dallara Indycar is so comically ugly, it would have been so much nicer had something nice become the chassis, and that Lola is miles better to look at.

Problem is, I doubt any constructor could compete with Dallara on support and logistics.

[Ben1445]

I think the path back to Lola being a chassis manufacturer which could compete Dallara's position today has to be one which is fairly long term and does start with some of the less glamorous things. Things like modernising that wind tunnel (current Phase 1), hiring out its use and investing further in the technical centre's facilities. Re-building a design team who can bid for contracts or carry out consultancy work, both within motorsport and without, to solidly underpin a project which brings the Lola name back to a car on track. 

 

I also do think that the first new-design Lola is likely to be something fairly simple and 'low-level', or even outside major competition like an affordable track-day sportscar. Possibly a bit left-field too, perhaps looking towards gaps in the market and future trends (given Bechtolsheimer's background) like the kind of thing McMurtry has been doing. 

[Ben1445]

ARTGP, on 24 Jun 2022 - 14:49, said:

Would they be allowed to be an LMP2 constructor?

This seems to be addressed directly in the Autosport write up:

"He conceded that there will be limited opportunities for Lola to have an involvement in a Le Mans Hypercar or LMDh project, but expressed a hope that the organisation could make a bid for one of the licences to build LMP2 prototypes after the next rules cycle covering 2025 to 2029.

“I don’t think it is a bad thing for Lola to get involved with a more narrow scope in one of these larger-scale projects and to focus on some of the lower-tier areas of sportscar racing to build up our capabilities so that when chassis tenders reopen five years from now we will be in a place to make a credible bid,” he explained."
 
So in terms of being in LMP2 as a full chassis constructor we're probably looking at 2030 now, which does give plenty of time to re-establish expertise to support a bid over the next few years. As for what those are: 
 
"With one of the key projects we are focussed on right now, the target would be to have a car on track from 2024,” Bechtolsheimer told Autosport. “I think 2025 might be a little bit more realistic, but there are certain opportunities that could see a Lola back on track even earlier.”

Bechtolsheimer said he is not ready to be more specific on the nature of the projects Lola is working on, but admitted that “conversations in both sportscar and single-seater paddocks are ongoing".
 
The article also has this nice little tid-bit:

"The new organisation will trade as Lola Cars Ltd, the original name of the company before it hit financial problems in the wake of its short-lived 1997 Formula 1 entry."

Edited by Ben1445, 26 June 2022 - 11:51.

[jonpollak]

For a kid from LA, this was LoLa’s greatest moment.
Dad got to work on some of the later episodes of the racing obsessed James Garner and his personal pet projects.
https://youtu.be/3Qkmg6XnI1c?t=751

 

Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 28 June 2022 - 22:13.

[Ben1445]

Speaking of Lola's heritage, here's some of the shots of the Technical Centre archives from the 'For sale: Lola, two careful owners' article which have all been bought as part of this revival deal. 

 

 

 

Orignal production jigs for the T70 in the middle bottom of the above collage

 

Ben1445, on 25 Jun 2022 - 16:57, said:

For sale: Lola, two careful owners
https://www.motorspo...-careful-owners

[Beri]

A T70 mk3B from a first glimpse? That's one sexy racing car. Albeit the A spec is just a tad prettier in my book.

[jonpollak]

I too had this Camero but with a hard top.



Jp

[paulb]

jonpollak, on 28 Jun 2022 - 22:03, said:

For a kid from LA, this was LoLa’s greatest moment.
Dad got to work on some of the later episodes of the racing obsessed James Garner and his personal pet projects.
https://youtu.be/3Qkmg6XnI1c?t=751


Jp

I went to a special screening of The Racing Scene at The Peterson Automotive museum. It was a very cool event.

[loki]

jonpollak, on 28 Jun 2022 - 22:43, said:

I too had this Camero but with a hard top.

 

But could you do a Rockford turn?

[Sparky68]

Be good to see the Lola building back in use having left there in 2007 

[RA2]

[BRG]

loki, on 29 Jun 2022 - 04:07, said:

But could you do a Rockford turn?

Wouldn't you need to have a Pontiac Firebird to do this?

[Ben1445]

Radio Le Mans' weekly show Midweek Motorsport will be interviewing Till Bechtolsheimer today, broadcast from 8pm UK time (30 mins after this post)

http://www.radiolemans.co

Edited by Ben1445, 29 June 2022 - 18:31.

[loki]

BRG, on 29 Jun 2022 - 09:18, said:

Wouldn't you need to have a Pontiac Firebird to do this?

Indeed though the Firechicken was a Camaro with different drive train options.   And a chicken on the hood.

[Ben1445]

Ben1445, on 29 Jun 2022 - 18:30, said:

Radio Le Mans' weekly show Midweek Motorsport will be interviewing Till Bechtolsheimer today, broadcast from 8pm UK time (30 mins after this post)

http://www.radiolemans.co

It starts about 80 minutes into program, which I have just found out by listening to 80 minutes of annoying waffle in the live show. 

Edited by Ben1445, 29 June 2022 - 20:33.

[SKL]

Considering how long I've been a race fanatic I love the fact that at least the name Lola will be back in the game.    Some of us aren't the only ones who wished they could get back in the indycar game.  Marshall Pruett admits today at racer.com  that a lot of the drivers aren't that impressed with the DW12, especially with all the added weight of the aeroscreen etc.  And with the hybrid stuff they're adding it will only get worse.  Of course the F1 cars are also in need of a SERIOUS diet as well...

Power is quoted as saying he'd love to drive something like the old Panoz, which was only used for 1 year before the merger...  I guess we can only dream, or watch old youtube videos...

[PayasYouRace]

The IR18 iteration of the DW12 was pretty good, but that was already an old car when it was introduced. Having to introduce the aero screen and hybrid into this 10 year old car isn’t going to be ideal.

 

It would make sense to introduce a whole new chassis in the next couple of years. Lola might not be ready for that, but if replacing the DW12 takes longer, they might be in a position to do so.

[Sparky68]

We made some good money from Indy Car SKL. Shame we blew it all on F1

[loki]

PayasYouRace, on 30 Jun 2022 - 06:24, said:

The IR18 iteration of the DW12 was pretty good, but that was already an old car when it was introduced. Having to introduce the aero screen and hybrid into this 10 year old car isn’t going to be ideal.

 

It would make sense to introduce a whole new chassis in the next couple of years. Lola might not be ready for that, but if replacing the DW12 takes longer, they might be in a position to do so.

 

It’s a good idea for them to do both at the same time.  Drivers think so and many team owners do as well.  The plan currently is mod the current car for 2024 when the powertrains come then redesign the car ground up for 2025 or 2026.  Pruett had some thoughts and talked to drivers and owners a few months back.

 

https://racer.com/20...rid-powerplant/

[Ben1445]

Interestingly, the Lola wind tunnel, having been maintained by long-time Lola employee Chris Saunders, had an important customer relatively recently in the form of Multimatic Motorsports, who used it for tests and acclimatisation after taking over the Mazda DPi program from Joest Racing. A pole position at the 2020 Daytona 24 Hours was an immediate result, and followed up over the 2020 and 2021 seasons with four wins in Daytona (240), Sebring, Watkins Glen and Road Atlanta.

It's perhaps even more of an interesting link since Multimatic was the company who bought some portion of rights to Lola IP and continued to support the Mazda IMSA effort from 2014, using a continuation of the Lola B08/80 chassis until 2016. When Mazda carried the program through into DPi with the Mazda RT24-P, the chassis was based on the Riley-Multimatic Mk.30 LMP2 chassis, where Multimatic were responsible for the composite tub, bodywork and aerodynamics.

The links apparently do not stop there, however. Advanced Engines Research (AER) worked with Mazdaspeed on their series of four-cylinder MZ prototype engines from 2007, and which won the 2011 ALMS with Dyson Racing in a Lola chassis. The engines continued through Mazda’s official IMSA programs and AER also delivered the MZ-2.0T which powered Mazda’s DPi program - the one which eventually used the Lola wind tunnel ahead of its most competitive seasons.

 

As reported in The Race, among the first hires made to start rebuilding Lola’s technical team is Micheal Wilson, who is currently sitting as technical director at AER, a position held since 2020, and preceded this with experience heading up the technical side of HWA’s Mercedes DTM efforts.

Edited by Ben1445, 30 June 2022 - 08:47.

[Sparky68]

Multimatic also purchased 2 of Lola's autoclaves , one is in Canada and the other in Norwich.

[Ben1445]

The main wind tunnel upgrade beyond updates to software, control system, instrumentation etc. is the introduction of “Constant Motion Testing”.

 

Currently the tunnel is set up to be a point-to-point tunnel, whereby the model is set up in a certain position, the wind tunnel is run, a snapshot of data is collected and after powering down the model is moved into a new position and so on. (edit: a contentious point, it seems)

 

New updates will allow the model to be moved through a range of pitch, yaw or roll angles whilst the tunnel is operational, which is useful for both dynamic situations and also just to increase the amount of useful data a customer can get from a session. 

 

Aim is to take a tunnel already known for strong tunnel-to-track correlation and return it to a state of the art facility that industry will really want to use. Given that it apparently helped Multimatic achieve winning results for Mazda in IMSA only a few short years ago - outdated systems and all - the wind tunnel itself is surely a very valuable piece of equipment on it's own. 

Edited by Ben1445, 30 June 2022 - 15:56.

[Ben1445]

Gary Anderson and Autosport did a series of videos in and around the Lola facility a few years back in 2018

 

[PayasYouRace]

Ben1445, on 30 Jun 2022 - 11:55, said:

The main wind tunnel upgrade beyond updates to software, control system, instrumentation etc. is the introduction of “Constant Motion Testing”.

Currently the tunnel is set up to be a point-to-point tunnel, whereby the model is set up in a certain position, the wind tunnel is run, a snapshot of data is collected and after powering down the model is moved into a new position and so on.

New updates will allow the model to be moved through a range of pitch, yaw or roll angles whilst the tunnel is operational, which is useful for both dynamic situations and also just to increase the amount of useful data a customer can get from a session.

Aim is to take a tunnel already known for strong tunnel-to-track correlation and return it to a state of the art facility that industry will really want to use. Given that it apparently helped Multimatic achieve winning results for Mazda in IMSA only a few short years ago - outdated systems and all - the wind tunnel itself is surely a very valuable piece of equipment on it's own.

I’m surprised they couldn’t do the constant motion stuff. My university wind tunnel had that when I was using it 12/13 years ago. We would set up a profile of pitch and yaw angles and then do the run.

Of course that tunnel had plenty of commercial customers too, not just the university students.

[Ben1445]

Yeah, it's a good question. The tunnel was already second hand when Lola started using it in 1998/99, having been bought from BAe. That in itself means it's already been a good 25 years since that move to Huntingdon and conversion for Lola was carried out. 
 
From what I gather, constant motion testing has mostly been something that leading motorsport teams have been particularly keen to have after things like F1's resource restriction agreements came into effect in 2010/11, after which the improved utilisation efficiency made it a real payoff to have on this size of tunnel. For a while at the start of the 2010s, I seem to recall that many teams wanted to use the TMG tunnel in Köln since it had this kind of thing already installed? I'm not really aware of exactly how common it was before that, but I presume most of the favoured tunnels that didn't have it would have been upgraded since then to remain competitive in this era of cost reductions for motorsport.  
 
By that time, though, I guess Lola would already have been starting to run out of money, and ultimately entered administration in 2012. It seems reasonable to suggest that the tunnel has simply missed out on the round of investment that the more active tunnels have received during the last decade or so? That would also be what the first round of re-investment in Lola will aim to rectify. 
 
As a slight aside... in the Midweek Motorsport interview, Bechtolsheimer says that part of Concorde's development was done with it when it was with the former owners so that suggests it's easily a good 50 years old, at least. Obviously that isn't uncommon for the core structure of a wind tunnel, but now does make me curious to know where it was based previously. 
 
 ====
Edit: You could be dead on with that surprise, PAYR. Some old website remnants out there seemingly dating from the Lola Cars International era (1998-2012) suggest that it has/had at least some reasonable level of in-run adjustment available to them: "Control of the model’s attitude is fully computerised, with adjustability during runs including yaw and roll plus front wheel steering up t o ±1 0°. A unique feature of the system is the ability to change the wheelbase and track from the control room, increasing the flexibility and productivity of testing."  Bechtolsheimer said in his interview with Midweek Motorsport that it's currently point-to-point and being upgraded to constant motion, but perhaps it's a little more complicated than that and/or he was mistaken.

Edited by Ben1445, 30 June 2022 - 15:57.

[Ben1445]

Ben1445, on 30 Jun 2022 - 13:22, said:

As a slight aside... in the Midweek Motorsport interview, Bechtolsheimer says that part of Concorde's development was done with it when it was with the former owners so that suggests it's easily a good 50 years old, at least. Obviously that isn't uncommon for the core structure of a wind tunnel, but now does make me curious to know where it was based previously.

From what I can find, it was apparently built at Warton Aerodrome, Lancashire in 1954* as a 7ft low speed tunnel, which would probably means its routes trace back further than both BAe and BAC, starting with English Electric. That's coming up on 70 years old for the core structure. With the move to Huntingdon in 1998 came the upgrades for motorsport with a new test section, including load cell, rolling road and boundary layer removal system amongst other things. 
 
*A NASA Aeronautical Facilities Catalogue from 1985 appears to list construction as 1948

Edited by Ben1445, 30 June 2022 - 16:04.

[PayasYouRace]

Ben1445, on 30 Jun 2022 - 15:55, said:

From what I can find, it was apparently built at Warton Aerodrome, Lancashire in 1954* as a 7ft low speed tunnel, which would probably means its routes trace back further than both BAe and BAC, starting with English Electric. That's coming up on 70 years old for the core structure. With the move to Huntingdon in 1998 came the upgrades for motorsport with a new test section, including load cell, rolling road and boundary layer removal system amongst other things. 
 
*A NASA Aeronautical Facilities Catalogue from 1985 appears to list construction as 1948

 

I think that's low speed in aeronautical terms, which basically means, "not supersonic".

 

Otherwise, great info in your last few posts.    I'm really fascinated by the potential links. The idea that a Lola Indycar from my childhood might have been developed in the same wind tunnel as the EE Lightning is incredibly cool.

[aportinga]

BRG, on 24 Jun 2022 - 15:20, said:

There's lots of opportunities for Lola - F3, F5000. F3000, CART, Formula Ford etc.  Isn't there?

 

Honestly it would be great if RP opened up IC to another chassis provider.

[Sterzo]

PayasYouRace, on 30 Jun 2022 - 16:44, said:

I think that's low speed in aeronautical terms, which basically means, "not supersonic".

 

Otherwise, great info in your last few posts.    I'm really fascinated by the potential links. The idea that a Lola Indycar from my childhood might have been developed in the same wind tunnel as the EE Lightning is incredibly cool.

Would the Lightning have been tested in the "low speed" tunnel first, then a supersonic one? I was lucky in the early sixties to see Tiger Squadron (I think) using them as the main RAF display team. It wasn't long before they realised trainer aircraft made for better displays, but boy, were those Lightnings impressive...

[PayasYouRace]

Sterzo, on 01 Jul 2022 - 12:06, said:

Would the Lightning have been tested in the "low speed" tunnel first, then a supersonic one? I was lucky in the early sixties to see Tiger Squadron (I think) using them as the main RAF display team. It wasn't long before they realised trainer aircraft made for better displays, but boy, were those Lightnings impressive...

I’d imagine they’d have used both subsonic and supersonic tunnels concurrently, to determine both low and high speed characteristics. Though the basic shape was probably determined through supersonic tunnel testing.

 

Yes that would have been No.74 Sqn. Must have been an amazing sight.

[Ben1445]

Noticed in this article by Mark Preston that he has taken on the role of Motorsports Director for Lola Cars since December 2022. 
 
Formula E Needs Feeder Series For A New Class Of Drivers
https://the-race.com...ass-of-drivers/

 

Preston was previously head of the DS Techeetah Formula E team when it won titles for Jean-Eric Vergne and Antonio Felix da Costa. The race team has more or less wholesale become DS Penske after a merger/take over (of sorts) with Jay Penske's Dragon ... which goes some way to explaining why why Preston is no longer there. 

 

But yeah, I thought it sounded like an interesting hire. 

[BillBald]

RA2, on 24 Jun 2022 - 15:48, said:

They should start by rebuilding the T70

As a road car

[Ben1445]

BBC Cambridgeshire: 
 
Lola Cars: Ex-Formula 1 constructor set for 'new chapter'
https://www.bbc.co.u...eshire-65417113

"Lola was always at the forefront of motorsport and that's where I want to bring it back to," said Mr Bechtolsheimer.

 

"In this new carnation, I want to revive it with a focus on alternative powertrains. For us, it's electrification, hydrogen and synthetic fuels.

 

"In the next two to three years, you'll see a variety of Lola Cars in different championships with different concepts on tracks around the world."

Edited by Ben1445, 24 May 2023 - 07:42.

[Ben1445]

Tracking their recruitment efforts is also interesting and offers further clues. 
 
There's a posting up for a Senoir Software Engineer: 

"The Senior Software Engineer role will lead our control software development as we expand our BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) and HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) projects in the motorsport racing environment." 
 
"The prime responsibility as Senior Software Engineer will be the development and maintenance of the control software for EVs in motor racing. This will be achieved together with a group of software development engineers."

[GreenMachine]

Ben1445, on 24 May 2023 - 07:42, said:

BBC Cambridgeshire: 
 
Lola Cars: Ex-Formula 1 constructor set for 'new chapter'
https://www.bbc.co.u...eshire-65417113

"Lola was always at the forefront of motorsport and that's where I want to bring it back to," said Mr Bechtolsheimer.

 

"In this new carnation, I want to revive it with a focus on alternative powertrains. For us, it's electrification, hydrogen and synthetic fuels.

 

"In the next two to three years, you'll see a variety of Lola Cars in different championships with different concepts on tracks around the world."

 

A rose by any other name ...  

[Ben1445]

Lola's appointed Motorsport Director Mark Preston (formerly of McLaren, Super Aguri F1 teams and the championship winning Techeetah Formula E team) posted this from Le Mans: 

 

 

https://twitter.com/...697177505546240

Edited by Ben1445, 07 June 2023 - 09:34.

[mmmcurry]

Sterzo, on 01 Jul 2022 - 12:06, said:

 but boy, were those Lightnings impressive...

 

Slightly off topic, but my dads been sick in one (several RAF aircraft to be honest), he says that if you think turbulence is bad in a big, heavy passenger airliner it's nothing compared to a small light aircraft. 

[Sterzo]

...and totally off topic, my son's been sick in a light aircraft. But enough of this one-upmanship.

[Sparky68]

Work appears to be progressing well, just drove by the old Lola factory.

[Ben1445]

What did you see?

[Sparky68]

Whole front of the building [were offices when I worked there] has been torn down and something going up in there place. Will get some photos when I pass next.

[Ben1445]

This has been rattling around the FE Season 10 thread for a few days now, but reports are coming out that Lola is now expected to make a racing return via Formula E

Lola Picks Formula E For Its Motorsport Comeback
https://www.the-race...sport-comeback/

Edited by Ben1445, 26 March 2024 - 12:35.

[Ben1445]

• Apparently registered as a manufacturer earlier this year 
• Plan (as per The Race) would be to supply an existing team on the grid 
• Some reports of them forming a partnership with Yamaha to develop a powertrain (not mentioned by The Race)
• Has been making significant hires of late which would help support such an effort