31 replies to this topic

[LolaB0860]

So in 2022, what series still have allowed tire war, ie open tire competition? And I mean actually between cars within same class, so no pretend-war like there is in say WEC where you have mandated spec supplier A in class 1 and mandated spec supplier B in class 2.

 

I can't think of one single seater series anywhere, everything seems spec tires, but I am glad if someone can correct me?

 

Same with touring cars and stock cars. And even with sports cars, there are very few left that I can think of as most have plundered to the sweet cash offerings of exclusive spec deals.

 

So you still have Super GT, with Bridgestone, Michelin, Yokohama and Dunlop all competing together and pushing themselves forward.

 

 

 

And NLS / Nurburgring 24 Hours. There were nine marques in N24 this year (Michelin, Goodyear, Falken, Pirelli, Yokohama, Hankook, Giti, Nexen and Toyo) of which five supplied for GT3 I think.

 

Edited by LolaB0860, 28 June 2022 - 18:56.

[Cornholio]

Yeah it does sadly seem like an outlier these days and the exception rather than the norm.

 

Even just looking at F1 on it's own, looking at how for instance 1997 was made more interesting by that extra variable, plus to be honest it was the only thing peppering the Ferrari domination era of the early 2000s with any sort of variation (contrast that with the recently-ended Mercedes domination era where they had one less variable to contend with and therefore cleaned up even more). That's before getting into how it added an extra interest to mid-90s IndyCar and I'm sure there's other examples that I've missed.

 

I mean I, kind of, get the argument that the tyres - representing the contact with the road - are or have the potential to be such a huge differentiator much bigger than the engine, tyres, aero etc. and also being the one component teams or constructors or even full blown manufacturers can't reasonably make themselves, but still, I can't find myself in favour of a spec tyre formula no matter how much I try and force myself to. Maybe one for that unpopular opinions thread doing the rounds, I guess. 

[ARTGP]

It's a bit of a moot point in the Super GT is it not?   They have a success ballast system in place so it all comes out in the wash. If Michelin makes the best tire, all of their cars will get weight nerfs. 

Edited by ARTGP, 29 June 2022 - 02:19.

[RedRabbit]

As a Ferrari fan since the 90s, I felt a lot of pain in 2005, knowing that the car was actually an improvement over the all conquering F2004, but held back to a ridiculous level by the tires.

So I was quite ok with control tires from 2007. It's just something that shouldn't make such a difference in performance between teams, as it can basically undo or undermine some good engineering.

[Peat]

The British Hillclimb Championship has Avon vs Pirelli in the top class. 

[Peat]

As a Ferrari fan since the 90s, I felt a lot of pain in 2005, knowing that the car was actually an improvement over the all conquering F2004, but held back to a ridiculous level by the tires.
 

 

As a general fan of the sport, the years preceding that were a bit of a joke. Bridgestone were making bespoke tyres for Ferrari and essentially retreads to all the other customers, so they all left!

[BRG]

Yeah it does sadly thankfully seem like an outlier these days and the exception rather than the norm.

No tyre wars?  Good.

 

I want to see car racing, not tyre racing.  Tyres are black, round and very boring.  Stick 'em all on the same hard compound tyre and let' s go RACING! 

[FirstnameLastname]

F1 should bring back a tyre war… but also say tyres can’t be changed during the race.

See what the boffins can come up with. Would cut down the amount of tyres used, but also mean performance couldn’t just be turned down

[MikeTekRacing]

Tyre war? So some teams luck into an advantage/disadvantage and can do nothing about it while lapping significantly different?

How exciting…

[Bartonz20let]

Please god no.

[LolaB0860]

I am honestly shocked by some of the comments here, but maybe I am looking at the sport from another perspective.

Oh well. I always remember things like this fondly
https://au.motorspor...re-war/1810475/
https://www.thecheck...alms-rain-tyre/
https://sportscar365...legit-tire-war/

http://www.dailyspor...ona-1000km.html
“JMW had the deal with Dunlop and I was the driver they chose for testing. I miss tyre wars. We were on the right end of it too, we had a great team and Dunlop was so committed, we’d go away testing and push the boundaries. We had failures in the early days, but we were up against Pirelli at first, then Michelin and had a proper ding-dong. We went as fast we could and there wasn’t a BoP structure like there is now. It brought the best out of us."

Edited by LolaB0860, 29 June 2022 - 11:07.

[ANF]

As a general fan of the sport, the years preceding that were a bit of a joke. Bridgestone were making bespoke tyres for Ferrari and essentially retreads to all the other customers, so they all left!

Yeah, I'm not sure Ferrari would have been as dominant as they were if every team had been running the same tyre.

[LolaB0860]

Back to the original question: FIM Motorcycle Endurance World Championship apparently still permits open tires in it's headliner class. Most of the grid has spec Dunlops in the secondary class but EWC still has tire war between Bridgestone, Dunlop, Michelin and Pirelli. So yes even Pirelli still competes somewhere against others.

Edited by LolaB0860, 29 June 2022 - 11:40.

[LolaB0860]

Nurburgring 24h grid this year has pretty strong tire war presesence once again. In the "higher classes" most of the grid is made of Michelins and Pirellis, but there's also Goodyear, Falken, Hankook and Yokohama going directly against each other, and not just pretending to do so (like Le Mans today)

I don't know about the lower classes because the documents and other info pieces are lacking, but I think there could be others (Bridgestone? Dunlop? Or is it mostly Goodyear now)

Edited by LolaB0860, 31 May 2024 - 12:48.

[William Hunt]

The British Hillclimb Championship has Avon vs Pirelli in the top class. 

Avon has been sold and has been renamed Nova (which is Avon backwards).

Edited by William Hunt, 05 June 2024 - 14:22.

[Peat]

Yeah, saw that. Took me a while to work out what was going on.  

I am also told that to score points in BHC you must be on the AVONOVA's to be eligible (they sponsor the championship), so no tyre war anymore. 

[Mark A]

Avon has been sold and has been renamed Nova (which is Avon backwards).

 

 

It was worse than that. Avon motorsport was shut down by their owners with the excellent team in Melksham all losing their jobs, I've worked with those guys in the past, it was a crying shame.

I understand there was a backlash over the sudden loss of tyres in certain categories and a few companies came forward to buy the stock and the tooling, which was sold off and is now being sold under the Nova name.

[Gravelngrass]

IMO it's better not to have more than one supplier. Less variables make racing better. 

[F1 Mike]

IMO it's better not to have more than one supplier. Less variables make racing better.

That is very debatable

[Gravelngrass]

That is very debatable

Not if you see auto racing as a competition among cars under as similar conditions as possible. In other words, if you see auto racing as primarily a racing exercise instead of a strategic one.

[LolaB0860]

I am also told that to score points in BHC you must be on the AVONOVA's to be eligible (they sponsor the championship), so no tyre war anymore.

Boo. What a joke.

[PayasYouRace]

IMO it's better not to have more than one supplier. Less variables make racing better. 

I’ve always said more variables make racing better. Less variables lead to more predictable processions.

[Gravelngrass]

I’ve always said more variables make racing better. Less variables lead to more predictable processions.

It depends of what you think makes an event “better”. Just as an example, an event with pit stops for fuel and tyres, different tyre suppliers, and cars resulting of completely free development may produce a close finish and some position changes during the event, while another with spec cars and tyres and no pit stops may produce a procession. But the probability of the latter creating racing (cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track) will always be higher. A pass in the pit or by a much lighter car or a car with much newer or better tyres isn’t racing in the purest sense.
To summarize, in the exaggerated first case, where everything went fine and was entertaining, you witnessed a good event involving racing cars, while in the second you witnessed a boring event which was actually a race. Since it’s not going to always be that the event is better than the race and the race will always have a higher probability to produce actual auto racing, I prefer the latter.
Motogp is the best example, even if they don’t have spec bikes or tyres, the racing is much better than in F1.

[PayasYouRace]

It depends of what you think makes an event “better”. Just as an example, an event with pit stops for fuel and tyres, different tyre suppliers, and cars resulting of completely free development may produce a close finish and some position changes during the event, while another with spec cars and tyres and no pit stops may produce a procession. But the probability of the latter creating racing (cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track) will always be higher. A pass in the pit or by a much lighter car or a car with much newer or better tyres isn’t racing in the purest sense.
To summarize, in the exaggerated first case, where everything went fine and was entertaining, you witnessed a good event involving racing cars, while in the second you witnessed a boring event which was actually a race. Since it’s not going to always be that the event is better than the race and the race will always have a higher probability to produce actual auto racing, I prefer the latter.
Motogp is the best example, even if they don’t have spec bikes or tyres, the racing is much better than in F1.

What you’ve described as racing, “cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track” is hardest when the cars are as similar as possible. You need variables to enable the cars to really engage on track. To get actual racing on track, you need cars with different strengths and weaknesses and preferable at different times of the race.

[F1 Mike]

MotoGP is better racing because of the tyre variables. Even riders at the front can often have a different combination of front and rear to others around them.
We don't really have much variation in F1. Most of the front runners will go for the same tyres at the same part of the race, and usually only those further back or top cars out of position will take a gamble with something different.

If there's another tyre supplier there would be more variables

[Myrvold]

The European Rally Championship has 4 brands.
Pirelli, Michelin, Hankook and MRF.

[Gravelngrass]

What you’ve described as racing, “cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track” is hardest when the cars are as similar as possible. You need variables to enable the cars to really engage on track. To get actual racing on track, you need cars with different strengths and weaknesses and preferable at different times of the race.

It’s hardest maybe, but it’s the most real. It’s just a matter of getting the mix right and the drivers will take care of the rest. The negligence or purposeful failure of, for example, F1 to create the right conditions to maximize the probability of actual racing happening on track, is probably why they have had to add additional elements throughout the years. What now is DRS and mandatory use of compounds, in the past was refueling and tyre changes (with caveats)…
The strengths and weaknesses you mention should not be artificially created, but achieved by drivers and setups basically. A better tyre manager will have an advantage without the need of changing tyres, for example…
As said, this is not utopia. It’s happening today in a different series with great results even though it’s a different type of vehicle.

Edited by Gravelngrass, 06 June 2024 - 13:07.

[Hati]

I’ve always said more variables make racing better. Less variables lead to more predictable processions.

 

Problem with tire wars is that you roll the dice pre season and if you get wrong supplier you can kiss your season good bye, regardless of how good your car is. There was a picture that showed how uneven victories were between different tyre manufacturers during war years. Difference in tires is so big that it's same as saying to one team "you can use one liter engine this year" and for other team "you can use a three liter engine".

[Sterzo]

What you’ve described as racing, “cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track” is hardest when the cars are as similar as possible. You need variables to enable the cars to really engage on track. To get actual racing on track, you need cars with different strengths and weaknesses and preferable at different times of the race.

Yet the categories which give that fierce racing are one-make Caterhams and Minis, plus Formula Ford where the differences between the cars are very small.

[MikeTekRacing]

Problem with tire wars is that you roll the dice pre season and if you get wrong supplier you can kiss your season good bye, regardless of how good your car is. There was a picture that showed how uneven victories were between different tyre manufacturers during war years. Difference in tires is so big that it's same as saying to one team "you can use one liter engine this year" and for other team "you can use a three liter engine".

i can't believe this is something people want. Half of the grid on wrong tyres...in an F1 where sometimes P1-P16 is under a second in Q1.

Adding random variables doesn't make racing better. It makes racing pointless for the ones that receive the wrong tyres when dice are rolled

[MikeTekRacing]

What you’ve described as racing, “cars under equal conditions really engaging in actual racing on track” is hardest when the cars are as similar as possible. You need variables to enable the cars to really engage on track. To get actual racing on track, you need cars with different strengths and weaknesses and preferable at different times of the race.

 

 

the variables that are outside of team's control and can impact performance the most are not really something that add good things.

 

imagine the current grid where you only give softs to some teams, mediums to others and hard to others. For the whole weekend, that's all they can use.

That's exactly how a tyre war looks like

[PayasYouRace]

the variables that are outside of team's control and can impact performance the most are not really something that add good things.

 

imagine the current grid where you only give softs to some teams, mediums to others and hard to others. For the whole weekend, that's all they can use.

That's exactly how a tyre war looks like

I remember what tyre wars were like. That’s why I’m against them.