94 replies to this topic

[Collombin]

Topic of the season! Great job.

Thank you, but don't you mean the off-season? The season doesn't start until the end of next week.

[milestone 11]

Right, that majes it more reasonable, but still - six seconds?
Although thinking about it, I’d assume that not all riders are pushing 100% towards the end of the final lap - and of course the lap is very long, so perhaps it’s not as wild as it seems at first sight?

Depends entirely on the race's dynamics. The current lap record, set in '18 was a tremendous battle between Peter Hickman and Dean Harrison, Deano was in the lead going into the final lap and Hicky had to pull out all the stops to beat him to the line. '92 saw a battle between Steve Hislop and Carl Fogarty which is consldered one of the greatest of all time. Hizzy was 6 secs up going into the last lap which Foggy cut to 4 on the last lap, setting a lap record in the process which stood for many years. And of course, the Hailwood/Agostini battles are legendary.

Edited by milestone 11, 14 July 2022 - 07:52.

[FortiFord]

Would be interested in seeing the points standing for 08/09

[milestone 11]

Would be interested in seeing the points standing for 08/09

Vettel wins it by 4 points, (mental arithmetic).

[RedRabbit]

Vettel wins it by 4 points, (mental arithmetic).

It actually reinforces what a weak campaign 2008 was by all the drivers.

[MJB5990]

It actually reinforces what a weak campaign 2008 was by all the drivers.

 

I think it shows the enormity of the rule change in 2009. Bare in mind, Vettel switched teams between 08/09 aswell.

[Collombin]

Would be interested in seeing the points standing for 08/09

Subject to the usual disclaimers (not least being able to read my own tiny writing) I seemed to have come up with

VET 77
MAS 71
BUT 68
ALO 61
HAM 59

Most seasons I didn't need to check that many different drivers.

[milestone 11]

Subject to the usual disclaimers (not least being able to read my own tiny writing) I seemed to have come up with
VET 77
MAS 71
BUT 68
ALO 61
HAM 59
Most seasons I didn't need to check that many different drivers.

Am I misinterpreting the season? i'd counted Ger '08- Ger '09 inc. as being the season. (Button 73)

Edited by milestone 11, 14 July 2022 - 11:05.

[Collombin]

Am I misinterpreting the season? i'd counted Ger '08- Ger '09 inc. as being the season.

No, that's correct.

[milestone 11]

No, that's correct.

Does Button not have 73 if that's the case?

[Collombin]

Does Button not have 73 if that's the case?

Not that I can tell, he just had the 68 from 2009 didn't he?

[Ivanhoe]

Not that I can tell, he just had the 68 from 2009 didn't he?

I also come to 73 (all in 2009)

[Collombin]

Malaysia 2009 was half points.

You guys had me worried there for a bit.

[milestone 11]

Malaysia 2009 was half points.
You guys had me worried there for a bit.

Oooh there's a thing. Thanks Collombin. Vettel didn't score, full points would have switched them. Wow!

Edit,
Of course not, that's bollocks m11!!!!

Edited by milestone 11, 14 July 2022 - 12:53.

[milestone 11]

Not that I can tell, he just had the 68 from 2009 didn't he?

Slapped wrist for me.

[Beri]

I have been wondering.. how would the CAS Championships have fared if the point count would have been the top 6 only 10 to 1 point system for all seasons.... (Im too lazy to do this right now with a cold beer in my hand)

[JRodrigues]

 

Raikkonen might have had a good chance for 12/13

 

 

 

 

I was very wrong 

 

Sebastian Vettel 257

Fernando Alonso 243

Kimi Räikkönen 222

Mark Webber 160

Lewis Hamilton 159

Edited by JRodrigues, 14 July 2022 - 13:14.

[Collombin]

Hmm. I had Vettel as a runaway winner for 12/13 with well over 300 points. I didn't even bother checking anyone else because it was so obviously a Seb title.

[eab]

Hmm. I had Vettel as a runaway winner for 12/13 with well over 300 points. I didn't even bother checking anyone else because it was so obviously a Seb title.

Definitely. At least, If I'm not mistaken, the season starts in HUN and ends in HUN, making it 10 races in each calendar year. Mental addition gave me 343 pts, beautifully divided in 171 and 172, making VET the top scorer in each half year.

Edited by eab, 14 July 2022 - 20:34.

[FortiFord]

Subject to the usual disclaimers (not least being able to read my own tiny writing) I seemed to have come up with

VET 77
MAS 71
BUT 68
ALO 61
HAM 59

Most seasons I didn't need to check that many different drivers.

 

Poor Kubica! Didn't even make the top 5. I didn't realise that he scored only 2 points in the first half of 2009. 

[FortiFord]

@Collombin

 

How do you handle seasons like 09/10 where there is points system change? Are 2010 scores re-weighted to account for the fact that they're worth 100-150% more than 2009 scores?

[Michael Ferner]

Does the CAS Championship Commission consider changing the general framework to a July 1 to June 30 year? Retrospectively?

[Collombin]

@Collombin

How do you handle seasons like 09/10 where there is points system change? Are 2010 scores re-weighted to account for the fact that they're worth 100-150% more than 2009 scores?

No, and this was the only CAS season where the change was so dramatic that it could realistically make one half of a season's results too heavily weighted.

However, as I mentioned earlier there was no real controversy in the 09/10 season because fortunately the same driver won both individual halves anyway, thus a messy situation was avoided.

[Collombin]

Does the CAS Championship Commission consider changing the general framework to a July 1 to June 30 year? Retrospectively?

All new proposals are thoroughly discussed by the committee before being rejected.

I think this one is a bit easier to calculate than most though (contrast with redoing the whole thing with different point systems, the CAS Hard Work Phobia Director is still locked in the toilet after that suggestion), so may be considered.

Incidentally, some CAS seasons have uneven halves (eg the 20/21 season is 17 races but with an 8:11 split across the WDC seasons). That's just a function of how the midpoints are established, and I don't think it's a problem as such. The real life 1975 WDC had an 8:6 split I think, despite Wikipedia claiming it was 7:7.

Edited by Collombin, 15 July 2022 - 10:15.

[Michael Ferner]

I will kick off the Jul-Jun variant with a few standings (using a 51 % best results formula, and calling it J2J for a catchier name):

 

End year (best of all races)

1950 (3 of 5) Farina 22, Fagioli 18, Fangio 17

1951 (3 of 5) Farina 20, Fangio 19 (20), Fagioli 10

1952 (5 of 8) Ascari 31, Fangio 27, González 27

1953 (5 of 9) Ascari 45 (69.5), Farina 27, Villoresi 21

1954 (5 of 8) Fangio 38.5 (46), Farina 30 (32), Ascari 22

1955 (6 of 11) Fangio 51 (67), Hawthorn 23, González 22*

1956 (4 of 6) Fangio 23, Moss 21, Behra 13

1957 (4 of 7) Fangio 34 (41), Behra 18, Moss 17 (18)

1958 (6 of 10) Moss 41, Fangio 33, Hawthorn 26 (28)

1959 (5 of 9) Hawthorn 35, Moss 25, Brooks 22

 

 

* I avoided the fractional nightmare of the FL point at the British GP and gave it to Moss instead, who was the first to record that lap time (and also recorded it most often amongst the seven)

 

 

End year (best of all races)
1960 (6 of 11) Brabham 35, Moss 34.5, McLaren 34.5
1961 (5 of 8) Brabham 28, P. Hill 28, von Trips 23 (24)
1962 (5 of 8) P. Hill 29 (33), G. Hill 19, McLaren 19
1963 (6 of 10) Clark 48, G. Hill 45, McLaren 28 (33)
1964 (6 of 10) Clark 54 (67), G. Hill 35 (40), Ginther 29 (34)
1965 (5 of 9) Clark 38, Surtees 36 (47), G. Hill 34 (38)
1966 (5 of 8) G. Hill 31 (34), Clark 27, Stewart 26
1967 (6 of 11) Brabham 48 (49), Hulme 31 (34), Clark 25
1968 (7 of 12) Hulme 41 (45), Brabham 41, Clark 40
1969 (6 of 11) Stewart 49 (51), G. Hill 39, Hulme 31 (34)

Graham Hill can breathe easily again!

 

 

1970 (7 of 12) Stewart 52 (55), Rindt 40, Ickx 38

1971 (7 of 12) Ickx 52 (55), Regazzoni 38, Stewart 30

1972 (7 of 12) Stewart 50, Fittipaldi 42, Cevert 32

1973 (8 of 14) Fittipaldi 66 (74), Stewart 66 (72), Hulme 35 (39)

1974 (9 of 16) Peterson 52, Fittipaldi 44 (45), Stewart 32

1975 (8 of 15) Lauda 45 (46), Fittipaldi 45, Reutemann 45 (48)

1976 (7 of 13) Lauda 60 (78.5), Hunt 32 (34), Scheckter 28

1977 (9 of 17) Hunt 61, Scheckter 53 (58), Lauda 47

1978 (9 of 17) Lauda 61 (66), Andretti 60, Reutemann 37

1979 (8 of 15) Scheckter 49 (51), Reutemann 46 (51), Andretti 40

 

Peterson is J2J World Champion!!

 

... and Reutemann loses two of his three again, the first in an incredible three-way tie break: Lauda with three wins and two seconds over Fitti (two wins and four seconds) and Lole (two wins and two seconds)!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 July 2022 - 13:34.

[RedRabbit]

How many variants of the CAS are needed before Alonso finally gets his coveted 3rd title? 😂

[Collombin]

How many variants of the CAS are needed before Alonso finally gets his coveted 3rd title? 😂

I think all these changes under the J2J system in the early years are largely a function of so many WDC seasons being heavily loaded into the Jul-Dec half of the calendar, I would bet on the differences being less dramatic once races get more evenly distributed throughout the year. But we wait with bated breath......

Edited by Collombin, 15 July 2022 - 13:36.

[Collombin]

1975 (8 of 15) Lauda 45 (46), Fittipaldi 45, Reutemann 45 (48)

.. and Reutemann loses two of his three again, the first in an incredible three-way tie break: Lauda with three wins and two seconds over Fitti (two wins and four seconds) and Lole (two wins and two seconds)!

Poor Lole. It looks like he would have won if the shortened Spanish GP had awarded full points.

[Michael Ferner]

An overview of the first 2.95 decades of the J2J World Championships: Farina takes one from Fangio, SCM one from NGH and Peterson one from Fittipaldi to make for two extremely popular new faces on the J2J Bored-Ferner-Trophy. On the other hand, Surtees loses his to Clark, Rindt to Ickx (another new face) and Andretti to Lauda, so that there are 17 J2J champions for that time period, compared to only 16 CAS and 17 FIA  winners. Continuing with the top three J2J finishers:

 

1980 (8 of 15) Jones 64 (67), Arnoux 40, Villeneuve 36

1981 (8 of 14) Jones 60 (67), Reutemann 52 (70), Piquet 51

1982 (9 of 16) Prost 57, Watson 51 (53), Piquet 39

1983 (9 of 16) Tambay 47 (52), Prost 46, Rosberg 46 (52)

1984 (8 of 15) Prost 56.5 (62.5), Piquet 50, Arnoux 45 (49)

1985 (8 of 14) Prost 58, Lauda 51, Alboreto 47 (52)

1986 (9 of 17) Prost 67 (87), Senna 59 (65), Mansell 54 (55)

1987 (8 of 14) Prost 58 (63), Piquet 57 (68), Mansell 52 (55)

1988 (9 of 17) Prost 64 (69), Piquet 59 (69), Senna 59 (66)

1989 (9 of 16) Senna 78 (88), Prost 69 (89), Boutsen 29

 

 

... and Reutemann loses his third CAS championship, also , while Piquet loses all three of his FIA titles! Two of them go to Jones and Prost, while new face Tambay repeats his surprise CAS championship under J2J sanction, very narrowly preventing a near total Prost rout of the eighties!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 15 July 2022 - 15:10.

[Michael Ferner]

Dropped scores are a thing of the past, as J2J moves into the nineties:

 

1990 (16) Prost 75, Senna 64, Mansell 42

1991 (16) Senna 91, Prost 61, Piquet 47

1992 (17) Mansell 115, Senna 70, Patrese 61

1993 (16) Senna 74, Mansell 52, Prost 47

1994 (15) Schumacher 88, Hill 70, Prost 52

1995 (16) Hill 97, Schumacher 72, Berger 45

1996 (20) Hill 103, Schumacher 92, Coulthard 54

1997 (15) Schumacher 80, Villeneuve 73, Alesi 37

1998 (17) Schumacher 75*, Häkkinen 67, Villeneuve 59, Coulthard 55

1999 (15) Häkkinen 90, Schumacher 74, Irvine 48

 

 

* the J2J board followed the FIA lead and excluded Schumacher from the standings due to his conduct at Jerez

[Collombin]

* the J2J board followed the FIA lead and excluded Schumacher from the standings due to his conduct at Jerez

The CAS committee considered this but figured it was too early in the season to be a completely cynical attempt to secure a title and so grudgingly let him off with a slap on the wrist. Not all that different to the FIA punishment in effect......

Edited by Collombin, 15 July 2022 - 15:54.

[Rediscoveryx]

The CAS committee considered this but figured it was too early in the season to be a completely cynical attempt to secure a title and so grudgingly let him off with a slap on the wrist. Not all that different to the FIA punishment in effect......

Good call. Knowing that Williams would lose factory-Renault support for the second half of the season it would of course make little sense to assume any professional foul on the part of Schumacher.

[Michael Ferner]

2000 (17) Coulthard 70, Schumacher 68, Häkkinen 68

2001 (18) Schumacher 120, Coulthard 83, Häkkinen 66

2002 (17) Schumacher 131, Barrichello 56, R. Schumacher 54

2003 (17) Schumacher 126, Barrichello 88, Räikkönen 64

2004 (16) Schumacher 115, Barrichello 90, Montoya 67

2005 (18) Schumacher 102, Alonso 93, Räikkönen 74

2006 (19) Alonso 158, Räikkönen 114, Schumacher 87

2007 (16) Alonso 98, Massa 91, Hamilton 58

2008 (18) Räikkönen 121, Massa 103, Hamilton 89

2009 (18) Hamilton 69, Vettel 69, Massa 65

2010 (18) Hamilton 167, Vettel 160, Button 152

2011 (18) Vettel 327, Webber 248, Alonso 241

2012 (19) Vettel 291, Alonso 281, Webber 240

2013 (20) Vettel 328, Alonso 278, Räikkönen 232

2014 (19) Vettel 325, Rosberg 254, Hamilton 236

2015 (19) Hamilton 417, Rosberg 311, Vettel 227

2016 (19) Hamilton 329, Rosberg 304, Vettel 254

2017 (21) Hamilton 402, Ricciardo 270, Vettel 269

2018 (20) Hamilton 369, Vettel 295, Bottas 280

2019 (22) Hamilton 460, Bottas 321, Vettel 312

2020 (12) Hamilton 216, Bottas 160, Leclerc 159

2021 (25) Hamilton 485, Verstappen 370, Bottas 297

2022 (23) Verstappen 414.5, Hamilton 326.5, Leclerc 227

[Collombin]

2000 (17) Coulthard 70, Schumacher 68, Häkkinen 68

Makes Schumacher's bizarre tactics of helping Irvine out in Malaysia seem absurd. What on earth was he thinking? Cost him a title.

[Atreiu]

Nice work all around. So many WDCs won and lost make it clear how valuable it is for drivers to be opportunistic and take command. A lot changes from one year to the next.

[Alan Lewis]

...the Bored-Ferner-Trophy.

Now that is genius.

[messy]

Poor Kubica! Didn't even make the top 5. I didn't realise that he scored only 2 points in the first half of 2009.

I'd imagine Kubica gets much more from 07/08? The second half of 08 tailed off and that BMW Sauber in 09 was as quick as it was beautiful.

[noikeee]

The 08/09 championship is funky but serves as a reminder that Vettel was a genuinely talented and super exciting prospect at that time.

There's been some revisionism over the last few years that he just wasn't that good. There is a degree of truth in this - perhaps he was never quite to the level of Hamilton and Alonso and was flattered by the Newey Red Bulls, and always had poor racecraft - but you don't do what he was doing at that early stage without some serious talent as well.

[HighwayStar]

I'd imagine Kubica gets much more from 07/08? The second half of 08 tailed off and that BMW Sauber in 09 was as quick as it was beautiful.

 

Yes, Kubica scored 46 points in the first nine races of 2008 but scored just 29 in the last nine of that season. The opposite was true for Fernando Alonso, who scored just 13 points in the opening half of the season but 48 in the second half, this meant he scored as many points in the final two races as he did in the first nine. Kubica's results in the 2007 season were more evenly balanced, in fact he scored the exact same number of points (17) in the first eight races as he did in the last eight, albeit with the caveat that he missed the US GP after his heavy accident in Canada. If you include the British GP in the first half of the season, his 2007 campaign becomes a split of 22-17, which means he scored 63 points in 2007/08, approximately double his tally of 31 in 2008/09.

Edited by HighwayStar, 16 July 2022 - 13:38.

[George Costanza]

I am surprised about 1994/1995 and 1997/1998. But great stuff.

[Claymore25]

The 08/09 championship is funky but serves as a reminder that Vettel was a genuinely talented and super exciting prospect at that time.

There's been some revisionism over the last few years that he just wasn't that good. There is a degree of truth in this - perhaps he was never quite to the level of Hamilton and Alonso and was flattered by the Newey Red Bulls, and always had poor racecraft - but you don't do what he was doing at that early stage without some serious talent as well.

 

The first paragraph is spot on.

 

The second it's where I don't agree, specially the Newey part. People said as if the rest of drivers built their cars. Since you mention Hamilton I can aid that without Mercedes he will be not different than Villeneuve or Hill. and that would be super unfair to him too. His mistakes are amplified because agenda and his virtues are always downplayed except by his few fans and certain drivers.

[PlatenGlass]

I am surprised about 1994/1995 and 1997/1998. But great stuff.

What is there to surprised with about 97/98? It had to be Schumacher didn't it? The common factor in both title battles.

[Collombin]

OP updated to reflect the conclusion of the season.

Final table
1 Verstappen (Red Bull) 527
2 Perez (Red Bull) 325
3 Hamilton (Mercedes) 264
4 Russell (Mercedes) 237
5 Leclerc (Ferrari) 218
6 Sainz (Ferrari) 200
7 Alonso (Alpine / Aston Martin) 191

The formal trophy presentation will be in the fish and chip shop in Newport Pagnell High Street tonight at 7pm. Despite several increasingly desperate phone messages being left, Verstappen has yet to actually confirm attendance but given the importance of the occasion (not to mention the winning taste/value combination of their sausage butties), it's basically a sure thing he'll be there.

Next year's ceremony will be in Croydon on the grounds that it's unlikely to be a problem anymore.

[PayasYouRace]

I’ll have a cod and chips and mushy peas.

[AustinF1]

At first glance I saw "Cut and Shoot", and thought ":Where am I?". I used to live near a little town in Texas that goes by that name.