Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

EV vs IC - cost per KWH at teh wheels


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#1 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 07 August 2022 - 12:03

Like most people my home energy bils and my fuel costs have risen rapidly and An EV becomes more tempting with petrol at £1.80 per litre

 

However, looking at my energy bill I pay 7.37 pence per KWH for gas and 29.4 pence per KWH for electricity. so four  times as much. Now sort of that I understand as some UK power stations burn natural gas and you pay for the power station plus transmission losses higher than gas line to your house , or you are paying for recent wind farm investment costs not yet  written off.

 

Now in the UK petrol at £1.80 per litre about 50% is tax so a litre is around 90 pence pre-tax, - the correct economic way of measuring it. I think petrol has 8.8 KWH per litre so buying petrol I pay 10 pence per KWH versus 29 pence for my home electric.

 

Obviously, the losses in an EV are very, very low vs an IC engine but if I assume 35% wheel efficiency for my IC car the cost of petrol is 28p per KWH at the wheels  - i.e virtually the same as electric charging cost at home for an EV.

 

I know that isa very crude calculation and, and not surprisingly, the UK government is planning to switch car fuel taxes to some sort of milage based tax on al cars including EV's. At £26B fuel tax per year they can’t afford not to.

 

Am I doing something wrong with my calculations or is the real cost of EV home charging in UK basically the same as tee real cost of fuel for an IC car?


Edited by mariner, 07 August 2022 - 12:11.


Advertisement

#2 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 07 August 2022 - 12:41

You are close in the calcs;  the rule of thumb is that EVs are 3x more efficient than ICEs, so if you can buy your petrol kWhs for a 1/3rd of what you are paying for electricity then you break even.

 

But what matters to me, as a consumer, is the cash I pay for my energy.  The "real cost" is what I pay, and how much of it is taxation is not controllable (or optional!) and therefore not worth factoring into my calculations.  I note that you appear to have taken tax off the petrol in your calculation but not off your electricity, which does not seem fair.    Real cost is always debatable: before tax, before profit, before infrastructure investment, before loss-leading, etc?  Can you really compare like for like at any level other than what you pay as a consumer?

 

Also note that there are tariffs available which are beneficial to an EV owner;  your 29p could fall to 5p, for instance.



#3 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 07 August 2022 - 13:21

Smitten , thanks for your info.

 

Both my electricity  and petrol costs are pre tax so the  comparison is a correct economic one. Of course cash price matters but the UK government has confirmed it will transfer auto usage taxes from fuel to mileage  so as to keep its £26B income from car transport. 

 

How and when is undecided but by 2025 a a sensible person would look at pre tax costs if they expect to keep the car for more than 5 years or so.

 

I know off peak rates are available  but I doubt it would fall to 5p as they must charge marginal production cost plus some sensible fixed cost recovery. Also as all cars go EV the of peak demand will rise and so will the charges.

 

Interestingly one family in my street has gone solar panel on the roof to charge up their new EV. As they both work from home that makes a lot of sense as the car sits on the drive collecting solar generated power all day. 

I don't think solar roof panels would work as well if they went out to work since the car would be absent during the highest solar r generation period.



#4 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 07 August 2022 - 16:44

I don't think road pricing is likely to happen that quickly; the ineptitude of the government and civil service will happily prevent the implementation of that for at least a decade. I also suspect they won't give a corresponding reduction to the duties on fossil fuels so there is a good chance they'll get a double dip off those sticking with petrol. And the hauliers will go bat-**** crazy at the concept anyway which will add to the delay in any implementation.  But they could (and probably will) increase VED for EVs sooner than that.

 

EDF are currently offering 4.5p/kWh and Octopus Go are 7.5p/kWh so these tariffs are (currently) available even in today's market.



#5 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 07 August 2022 - 19:05

Youa re quite corect, Octopus doan of peak at 7.5p /kwh however teh associated day rate is 40p/KWH versus the 29p above so maybe two suppliers!



#6 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 07 August 2022 - 20:38

It depends how much of your consumption you can, or are willing, to move to the cheap hours. Being on E7 I've been doing that for years anyway!

With my BEV, my home consumption has gone up ~12% (about 9k miles/year mainly charged at home), so even with a higher day rate the maths can still be in your favour.

#7 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 08 August 2022 - 02:38

That British electricity is expensive: BC Hydro's top tier rate is just over 14 Canadian cents per kWh. So a Tesla twin motor car would "officially" cost $2.33 charged at home for 100 km; my smart diesel can make 35 km on that amount of fuel. But, the capital cost has been written off for the 16 year old car, so as an ownership prospect, it's far, FAR cheaper to run. Plus it's a convertible. 



#8 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 08 August 2022 - 08:08

Yeah, the economics of car ownership has always been that a reliable older car has a lower TCO than a new one. (putting aside those rare examples which appreciate immediately).

 

And if you think our electricity is expensive, you should see the price of our petrol! 



#9 djr900

djr900
  • Member

  • 145 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 08 August 2022 - 12:58

So if home charging is barely cheaper than using petrol/diesel, how does the price compare if you only used public chargers ?

I seem to remember a Guy Martin TV programme where he used an EV for a road trip, and the cost of fast charging was quite a bit more than doing the same trip in a similar petrol car.

Not only more expensive, but several hours added to the journey time.

#10 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 08 August 2022 - 13:26

So if home charging is barely cheaper than using petrol/diesel, how does the price compare if you only used public chargers ?

I seem to remember a Guy Martin TV programme where he used an EV for a road trip, and the cost of fast charging was quite a bit more than doing the same trip in a similar petrol car.

Not only more expensive, but several hours added to the journey time.

Home charging is only a similar price to petrol/diesel if you ignore fuel taxation.  Factor in taxation and EVs are significantly cheaper to run.  In a year of ownership, the fuel cost to me of running a BEV has been 7.5p/mile.

 

Away from home charging takes several guises and costs range from 0p (parts of Scotland for instance, plus some supermarkets, workplace car parks) to about 70p.  And introductory offers and manufacturer deals can keep the prices down.  But when chargeable, the rule of thumb is that the faster the charger, the more you pay per kWh.

 

If total time for a trip which is beyond the range of your EV is highly important to you then yes, you'll currently be better with an ICE.  However, my anecdotal experience is that stopping for 30 or 40 mins in a trip of 300 miles is not an inconvenience and little different from the amount of stationary time in the same journey in an ICE.  YMMV.


Edited by smitten, 08 August 2022 - 13:26.


#11 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,603 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 08 August 2022 - 13:28

That British electricity is expensive: BC Hydro's top tier rate is just over 14 Canadian cents per kWh. So a Tesla twin motor car would "officially" cost $2.33 charged at home for 100 km; my smart diesel can make 35 km on that amount of fuel. But, the capital cost has been written off for the 16 year old car, so as an ownership prospect, it's far, FAR cheaper to run. Plus it's a convertible. 

 

A tiny car for two versus a family sedan?  A Smart works only in the city environs, which means you're belching that $#!^ into the air we breath.  Do you keep the top down following Cummins and dump trucks?


Edited by Nathan, 08 August 2022 - 13:30.


#12 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 08 August 2022 - 19:29

Only in the city you say? I don't even live in a city. It's a commuter car for me - 27 km of open 4 lane country highway to another town where I work two days a week.  But it's also been used on numerous road trips: Toronto to Vancouver Island, Vancouver Island to California and back, Rocky Mountains and points east (Drumheller) several times. Also been lapping on the Vancouver Island Motorsport Circuit racetrack.

 

Since our three kids have flown the coop, the Mercedes isn't used very much.

 

Around here there are a lot of convertibles - probably 2% or more of all cars. The top is down for months at a time.



#13 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 08 August 2022 - 22:29

This is a good topic - and I think before buying an EV people should research the electricity cost in their area/country - because there is quite a spread out there.

 

Over about 9,000 miles my Tesla averages 320Wh/mile. Multiply that by your electricity cost and compare it with gas and see where it takes you



#14 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 69,005 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 August 2022 - 01:14

I had a beer so suddenly I can't do math. My bill in Wisconsin says $0.11118kwh. How much would you pay per Tesla mile?

 

My '89 Saab averaged 22.38mpg at my last fill-up, and at the time local prices were $3.99 a gallon.



#15 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 7,464 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 09 August 2022 - 03:41

320 Wh/mile = 0.32 kWh/mile x $0.11118/kWh = $0.0356/mile = 3.6c/mile

 

22.38 m/gal = 1/22.38 gal/m = 0.0447 gal/m x $3.99/gal = $0.178/mile = 17.8c/mile


Edited by gruntguru, 09 August 2022 - 03:42.


#16 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 19,443 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 09 August 2022 - 07:35

Home charging is only a similar price to petrol/diesel if you ignore fuel taxation.  Factor in taxation and EVs are significantly cheaper to run.  In a year of ownership, the fuel cost to me of running a BEV has been 7.5p/mile.

 

Away from home charging takes several guises and costs range from 0p (parts of Scotland for instance, plus some supermarkets, workplace car parks) to about 70p.  And introductory offers and manufacturer deals can keep the prices down.  But when chargeable, the rule of thumb is that the faster the charger, the more you pay per kWh.

 

If total time for a trip which is beyond the range of your EV is highly important to you then yes, you'll currently be better with an ICE.  However, my anecdotal experience is that stopping for 30 or 40 mins in a trip of 300 miles is not an inconvenience and little different from the amount of stationary time in the same journey in an ICE.  YMMV.

If you are working with a fixed income, you might not bother about the delay. If you are paid by the clock, things might look very different. Especially if your EV is part of your work. What will happen is that for delivery services, prices will rise to compensate for the recharging time.  Also some countries add a recycling costs to the cars. This needs also some consideration.
 

For me the bottom line is to avoid using the car/bike ICE or EV if I don't need to. However I found out even that has consequences. My car repair shop men recently complained about it. The net result is that so they can survive financially they have to up their prices for what they charge. Too many odds and variables IMO.

 

Recently someone showed me a picture.of a stranded EV because it was running out of juice. Next to that car was an ICE pickup truck with a fuel powered generator that had a special converter plugged into that EV  to charge it's battery. To me it was the perfect image of the pros and cons. It's not as simple to calculate the long term costs for either vehicle.



#17 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 09 August 2022 - 08:09

If you are working with a fixed income, you might not bother about the delay. If you are paid by the clock, things might look very different. Especially if your EV is part of your work. What will happen is that for delivery services, prices will rise to compensate for the recharging time.  Also some countries add a recycling costs to the cars. This needs also some consideration.

They are different use cases though, and we were initially discussing domestic usage.  If I'm driving 200+ miles in one trip I'm almost certainly going to need to take a comfort stop anyway.  If I combine that with charging then there is no real time loss.

 

Local delivery services, and taxis, are increasingly using EVs because of the benefits they can achieve.  But they are services that don't need to recharge during the day or can recharge during mandated work breaks. 

 

The mistake which I think is often made by people on both sides of the argument is that there is one size fits all.  Your individual use case will direct you to what is best for you. 



#18 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,165 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 09 August 2022 - 09:42

This isn't exactly EV but it saves opening a new post.

 

Scottish Power in the UK, actually a Spanish company (!) has anounced plans to build a non fossil hydrogen plant at the huge Felixstowe container port.in Eastern England.

 

https://www.theguard...port-felixstowe

 

Most of the UK's very large wind farms are located off the local coasts and their night time output isn't fully used t so it may make economic  sense. Also it is a big transport hub for ships, trains and trucks , the trucks and trains  will typically return to Felixstowe frequently so maybe you can go hydrogen for heavy transport using just this one plant.



#19 GreenMachine

GreenMachine
  • Member

  • 2,111 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 09 August 2022 - 11:22

... or they transport the stuff to other places.



Advertisement

#20 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 09 August 2022 - 16:43

Gasoline prices have taxes which are (nominally) used to pay for roads. This is not presently reflected in the price of charging an EV, but it's inevitable that it will be.



#21 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 09 August 2022 - 16:44


 

The mistake which I think is often made by people on both sides of the argument is that there is one size fits all.  Your individual use case will direct you to what is best for you. 

The horror.



#22 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,168 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 09 August 2022 - 21:05

There's a lot of taxpayer money around that can be used by companies to greenwash their main interests by investigating green hydrogen. There have been some genuine advances, but the main problems still exist, erosion/poisoning of expensive rare earth electrodes, and storage and transport of the liquid H2. I'm ignoring the relatively low round trip efficiency. One solution to the storage transport issue is to turn it into ammonia and then into fertilizer, the production of which at the moment turns natural gas into CO2 in significant amounts globally.



#23 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,603 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 August 2022 - 21:19

"What will happen is that for delivery services, prices will rise to compensate for the recharging time. "

 

Highway transport will remain diesel for some time.  For in city delivery, I and Amazon doubt many exceed the Rivian's range in a day of delivering.  Over an 8 hour shift you have to average 20mph.  Can you do that in large metro cities mid day while stopping to make deliveries?

 

Only in the city you say? I don't even live in a city. It's a commuter car for me 

 

Well, to each their own, but it makes the comparison of sedans to tiny cars even less comparable.  Very, very few look at a Smart car and say "yes, that's my highway car".  I suspect those who do have to, or don't want to make the investment to go more practical.  It's like using a Cummins Dodge to putter around town.
 


Edited by Nathan, 09 August 2022 - 21:30.


#24 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 10 August 2022 - 19:43

It's actually the opposite of the huge truck in the city, if cost and carbon footprint is a factor.



#25 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 10 August 2022 - 20:45

what's counter intuitive when moving from ICE to EV is the swap in efficient running.

ICE engines are SO BAD at idling that we are used to getting the best mpg on highway running - although that's where the most power is needed to move the car fast.

EVs are incredibly more efficient in the city vs highway so range becomes a direct factor almost of speed and incline.


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 10 August 2022 - 20:46.


#26 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 10 August 2022 - 21:35

Diesels do go hyper lean when idling.....but have lots of particulates. So do DI gasoline engines.



#27 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 10 August 2022 - 21:52

hyper lean is still nowhere close to 0...

and it's not just idleing. Going 1mph, start stopping in traffic. lots of wasted energy for every touch of the brake pedal


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 10 August 2022 - 21:52.


#28 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 7,464 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 12 August 2022 - 01:46

Hyper lean idling doesn't mean hyper fuel reduction - its just more air.



#29 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 16 August 2022 - 02:38

It means less fuel than a similar gasoline engine would be using at idle, all other things being equal.



#30 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 7,464 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 August 2022 - 04:28

Perhaps 5%.



#31 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 16 August 2022 - 16:00

It means less fuel than a similar gasoline engine would be using at idle, all other things being equal.

still a huge number compared to the 0 of the electric 

my point was this fact makes us believe cars use less fuel at highway speeds. And it's wrong, gas engines just waste a lot of energy idleing 



#32 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 16 August 2022 - 18:40

At what point do we include the loss of Eastern Europe into the cost of charging one's car? Green Europe has hobbled the stability of their internal energy production to the point where Russian oil is their only viable option to avoid crisis. Great job, guys...you put yourself in this position. Now the Russians have you by the short & curlies and you're surprised they don't play nice? What did you think was going to happen? Crack a history book sometime, maybe.

 

The Ukrainian harvest will be dicky-doo this year and food prices are going to go up. In some places, food could get scarce. Wow, what could that possibly lead to? Have there ever been famine in that part of the world in the past? Yes, and those previous flirtations with genocide, The Volga Famine and the Holodomor were legislated into existence in an attempt to control the local population by a disconnected collectivist government in an attempt to usher in a new era of utopia (sound familiar?). Likewise, whatever problems we are going to see this winter are products of similar legislation. It's not a change in climate which has precipitated these coming losses in crop production and social unrest, it is the entirely predicable and preventable fall-out from the self-neutering climate change legislation which is the culprit. Further on the food front, draconian fertilizer laws are causing farming problems and protests in Sri Lanka, Holland and Canada. Can we not all see the issue here? At present, the prescription is worse than the disease. This is what I was talking about when mentioning unintended consequences of CC legislation previously. Nature abhors a vacuum; quit creating them.

 

You might be a little cold, a little dark, a little hungry and a little concerned about the army driving in your direction, but at least you can sleep with the peace of mind that comes with knowing you produce the bare minimal carbon footprint (while your 'leaders' fly the world in their personal jets).



#33 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 16 August 2022 - 19:36

At what point do we include the loss of Eastern Europe into the cost of charging one's car? Green Europe has hobbled the stability of their internal energy production to the point where Russian oil is their only viable option to avoid crisis. Great job, guys...you put yourself in this position. Now the Russians have you by the short & curlies and you're surprised they don't play nice? What did you think was going to happen? Crack a history book sometime, maybe.

 

The Ukrainian harvest will be dicky-doo this year and food prices are going to go up. In some places, food could get scarce. Wow, what could that possibly lead to? Have there ever been famine in that part of the world in the past? Yes, and those previous flirtations with genocide, The Volga Famine and the Holodomor were legislated into existence in an attempt to control the local population by a disconnected collectivist government in an attempt to usher in a new era of utopia (sound familiar?). Likewise, whatever problems we are going to see this winter are products of similar legislation. It's not a change in climate which has precipitated these coming losses in crop production and social unrest, it is the entirely predicable and preventable fall-out from the self-neutering climate change legislation which is the culprit. Further on the food front, draconian fertilizer laws are causing farming problems and protests in Sri Lanka, Holland and Canada. Can we not all see the issue here? At present, the prescription is worse than the disease. This is what I was talking about when mentioning unintended consequences of CC legislation previously. Nature abhors a vacuum; quit creating them.

 

You might be a little cold, a little dark, a little hungry and a little concerned about the army driving in your direction, but at least you can sleep with the peace of mind that comes with knowing you produce the bare minimal carbon footprint (while your 'leaders' fly the world in their personal jets).

You may just as well ask if the use of fossil fuel is the cause of the current pan-European drought, and what that is going to do to crops and food prices.  

 

We cannot change the past, but we can keep trying to find better ways for the future.



#34 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 17 August 2022 - 17:16

You may just as well ask if the use of fossil fuel is the cause of the current pan-European drought, and what that is going to do to crops and food prices.  

 

We cannot change the past, but we can keep trying to find better ways for the future.

No, that's not an equivalent claim. Politicians will go further and blame damned near anything they can on Climate Change. It has evolved into the catch-all, Kevin Bacon, boogey-man of the day. Literally any social ill can be linked in 6 degrees or less.

 

There is no direct path between climate change and the present period of dry weather. These weather patterns are not historically novel. It is possible, in retrospect, we might see patterns that suggest climate change contributed to the present weather, but even that will always be a tenuous claim. The claim that Europe has weakened their position economically and geo-politically in an attempt to reduce climate change emissions is self-evident. Can there be any debate on this point?

 

My argument the entire time is that the we need to be very selective about what we choose to sacrifice in the present in our attempt to produce a better future. Germany sacrificing nuclear energy for the Greens is assinine in a geo-political sense, but they did it none the less. The Germans have the predilection for a certain single-mindedness in action, and they've put it on full display here by hobbling their own national security to appease Ra. Putin actually told them his plans 15 years ago and it's pretty clear he hasn't changed his mind. Now Germany is pushing out the closing of their few remaining nuke plants and burning coal. The Greens are in power, though, so they won't change their path. This display of weakness will not go unnoticed.

 

Keep in mind, folks, Putin is the side-show. The 500 pound (kilo?) gorilla of Asia is merely spectating (while burning lots of coal and cheap Russian oil).

 

We, as every generation, are faced with all sorts of challenges. We need to do what we can to leave the best planet possible, but we have to maintain an reasonable social structure in the process or it's all for naught. To the extent that we can make progress on climate change goals, we should. We also need to address many, many other pollution issues. For instance, the Indian Ocean is one big ball of polluted plastic. The West has made it a little game to ignore the fact that whole bottom side of Asia uses that ocean as it's toilet. We can't say anything, though, because of the British Empire or some such bollocks. Regardless, it's just one of a myriad of problems which need addressed and we're basically ignoring everything while tilting at the single windmill of a Xi-esque "Climate Change Zero" policy.

Quit trying to solve complex problems using a single variable.


Edited by Fat Boy, 17 August 2022 - 17:18.


#35 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,603 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 18 August 2022 - 23:17

You may just as well ask if the use of fossil fuel is the cause of the current pan-European drought, and what that is going to do to crops and food prices.  

 

Europe never had a drought before?  If it becomes continuous - even regular- the question becomes valid.  Otherwise, it's totally ignorant to how weather works let alone history.  The turn of the 14th century Europe seen consistent droughts for a handful of years.  Why? Animal husbandry run amuck? UK has averaged one per decade for centuries.  It frequently happened to farmers around my region before cars ever became common.  It can, you know, naturally happen too...


Edited by Nathan, 18 August 2022 - 23:41.


#36 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 19 August 2022 - 05:50

Europe never had a drought before?  If it becomes continuous - even regular- the question becomes valid.  Otherwise, it's totally ignorant to how weather works let alone history.  The turn of the 14th century Europe seen consistent droughts for a handful of years.  Why? Animal husbandry run amuck? UK has averaged one per decade for centuries.  It frequently happened to farmers around my region before cars ever became common.  It can, you know, naturally happen too...


Denying the scientific consensus on climate change, man's apparent effect upon that, and the climate trends we are currently seeing would appear to be a little blinkered.


Edited by smitten, 19 August 2022 - 05:53.


#37 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 5,603 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 19 August 2022 - 14:19

IT ISN'T DENYING.

 

You people are ridiculous.  If someone doesn't believe all the spew then they are auto denier.  Again, you have to be really ignorant to pin one season of drought solely on human caused climate change because there are thick books detailing similar, worse, and at times more frequent periods of drought around the globe during times when we were not pumping out CO2 past breathing and raising a few animals.
 

So, yes, humans are making it worse, but to be the cause? Get real.  Be more realistic and say humans probably made this a worse drought than nature would have otherwise dished out.



#38 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 7,464 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 19 August 2022 - 22:52

Cool graphic.



#39 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 19 August 2022 - 23:07

Denying the scientific consensus on climate change, blah, blah, blah

JFC. Why even bother?



Advertisement

#40 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,168 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 20 August 2022 - 06:09

Pity it didn't start in the Holocene Optimum.



#41 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 10,651 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 27 August 2022 - 02:41

Gasoline prices have taxes which are (nominally) used to pay for roads. This is not presently reflected in the price of charging an EV, but it's inevitable that it will be.

Correct, you dont think governments are going to do without all that tax. A lot that goes to general revenue.

Blind Freddy can see that but it seems EV owners cannot.

And since our electricity here in Oz that is supposedly going to get cheaper with renewables increases in price faster than that they say it will reduce it makes electricity a luxury. 

The assett rich and cash poor people in our society are freezing in winter and cooking in summer because of said pricing. Yours truly is an example,, I am tight with money, the reason I have some but rug up literally watching TV at night and use two quilts to keep warm at night.  And may run the AC on the hottest nights unlike many that never seem to turn it off then wear a jumper!!

As for EVs,, when I can drive in comfort across Australia with 15 min stops every 6-700km to refuel I may consider. Until then,,, well it will never happen. And dont forget those maintenance costs on EVs,, it seems 3 times more expensive than going to your local Ford etc dealer. And there will not be one in every town either. 



#42 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 27 August 2022 - 08:18

As for EVs,, when I can drive in comfort across Australia with 15 min stops every 6-700km to refuel I may consider. Until then,,, well it will never happen.


Yeah, if that is genuinely your use case then you are better burning dinosaurs. Interestingly, the surveys seem to show that non-EV owners think that sort of range is needed, but surveys of EV owners suggest that it really isn't useful in the real world. I'm impressed with your bladder control to go 5-7 hrs without stopping!
 

And dont forget those maintenance costs on EVs,, it seems 3 times more expensive than going to your local Ford etc dealer. And there will not be one in every town either.


I'm not sure where you get that data from? Fewer mechanicals parts, less consumables, etc. And it's not like a modern ICE has an absence of costly electronics.

#43 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,168 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 28 August 2022 - 00:41

I'm impressed by the amount of time drivers from some countries seem prepared to waste not driving when on long road trips. I regularly used to drive Glasgow to Norwich in my Mini in 7 hours, one stop for juice and a pee, 10 minutes max. These days we drive to the north of Sydney, 1000 km, 10-11 hours perhaps including a slightly civilised lunch or picnic and one stop for juice.


Edited by Greg Locock, 28 August 2022 - 00:52.


#44 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 14,724 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 28 August 2022 - 03:52

Same, on a mille bornes trip, dicking around is not part of my plan.



#45 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,518 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 29 August 2022 - 16:53

I'm impressed by the amount of time drivers from some countries seem prepared to waste not driving when on long road trips. I regularly used to drive Glasgow to Norwich in my Mini in 7 hours, one stop for juice and a pee, 10 minutes max. These days we drive to the north of Sydney, 1000 km, 10-11 hours perhaps including a slightly civilised lunch or picnic and one stop for juice.

It depends. If I'm on my way going *to* wherever (generally a racetrack), then I'm all business. Driving home, I stop whenever the pain hits. There's no need to kill yourself for nothing. The driving/flying break-even point for me is around 8 hours. On my last (~10-hour drive) trip, I flew, but the truck beat me home because of my route/layovers.

I'm more of a black tea drinker instead of juice. Steep to taste.



#46 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,370 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 30 August 2022 - 11:43

And dont forget those maintenance costs on EVs,, it seems 3 times more expensive than going to your local Ford etc dealer. And there will not be one in every town either. 

EV servicing came up on an earlier thread here. Apparently, you don't need to service a Tesla much -- a squirt of lube on the door hinges and seat rails, check up for the air conditioning, ignore everything electrical for years. Maintenance for the mechanical brakes is unnecessary but you might seek an inspection for peace of mind.

 

I don't entirely swallow the spin but I do believe that the EV stuff does not require regular servicing. Apart from swapping out major units, there is not a lot possible.

 

I'm impressed by the amount of time drivers from some countries seem prepared to waste not driving when on long road trips. I regularly used to drive Glasgow to Norwich in my Mini in 7 hours, one stop for juice and a pee, 10 minutes max. 

For those unfamiliar with UK geography, 20% of that journey is busy roads south, 60% is highway driving and 20% is on roads where you can discover why NFN is more than a doctor's acronym.

 

When I was young, I made similar trips. The thing about them is that you're usually knackered when you come to the trickiest part.

 

Who were you visiting in Glasgow, Greg? Albion Motors for Lotus axles   ;).

 

NFN: https://en.wikipedia...mal_for_Norfolk



#47 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,168 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 30 August 2022 - 22:14

Nah, parents. 



#48 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 9,596 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 30 August 2022 - 22:49

 

As for EVs,, when I can drive in comfort across Australia with 15 min stops every 6-700km to refuel I may consider. Until then,,, well it will never happen. And dont forget those maintenance costs on EVs,, it seems 3 times more expensive than going to your local Ford etc dealer. And there will not be one in every town either. 

6-700kms without stopping for breaks is not good for you. But even if it is, that's a corner case for the majority of users

 

regarding maintenance - please tell me you are joking?

what maintenance? there is nothing to do on it other than air filters. No oil, no transmissions, not belts to change. 

Brakes get a lot more mileage.

 

And before someone says "but the battery" - that's estimated to be a problem on my car between 3-500,000 miles. 
That's way beyond the lifetime of an average car



#49 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,168 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 31 August 2022 - 23:59

Since we were talking about cost per kWh at the wheel, one energy agency in the UK is forecasting 117.5 p/kWh in April next year.



#50 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,409 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 September 2022 - 09:02

Since we were talking about cost per kWh at the wheel, one energy agency in the UK is forecasting 117.5 p/kWh in April next year.

I live in the hope that, like petrol rationing during Suez, the new-normal will still end up closer to the old-normal than what we are experiencing right now.  Interestingly, the charger operators have not been putting up their prices are quickly as domestic suppliers; I can still charge for 30p /kWh on some networks which will soon be cheaper than my domestic tariff.