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#1 brands77

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 14:25

Looking at the Moto2 class today, we have 4 chassis makers - Kalex, KTM, MV Augusta and NTS. We've lost Suter, TSR and FTR since the introduction of the class. The KTM and MV Augustas look very similar and the Kalex and NTS look similar too. We have a spec engine, which although I am pleased is a Triumph, means it is almost a spec bike class these days. Moto3 is worse with just 2 bikes Honda and KTM/Husqvarna/Gas Gas.


I know the 250cc class used to get criticised for being TZ dominated in the 70 and 80s, but even there were Kawasakis, Morbidellis/MBAs, Harley Davidsons, the Elf Pariesiennes, Defi and the myriad of Rotax powered machines, in the 90s we had Honda, Yamaha, Aprilia/Gilera, Suzuki and TSR Hondas. There were huge number of different frame makers and lots of innovations, in the engine configurations you had parallel twins, in line twins, V twins, reverse cylinder parallel twins - pretty much every layout was used (ok I can't remember a boxer/flat twin engine being used). You had different bikes popping up for their home rounds and different riders dropping in and out of the championship, and they were often very competitive/winners, especially for the Japanese and US rounds.


The 125cc were even better and you got home built specials like Gert Bender's bikes and Harald Bartol's bikes to name just two.


It was interesting to look at the bikes as well as to watch the racing.


I just can't get excited by Moto2 and Moto3 now and I for one was always more interested in the 250s and 125cc than the 500s in the 70s/80s and 90s, they seemed far more accessible. Hell I even rode a TZR250 reverse cylinder, RGV Gamma and RD125LC on the road, which I thought were the dogs******** because they were true race replicas.


What can we do to make the classes more interesting and to make them more accessible so we can get more makes in, more riders and especially riders from outside of Spain? I'm not biased against Spanish riders, but Spain and Italy seem to be the only countries where sponsors are willing to pay the big bucks to finance riders and teams and so why would they not sponsor their own? Moto2 and Moto3 were supposed to make the "junior" classes more accessible, but it looks to me as if it has had the opposite effect.


Maybe if we had a claiming rule like the AMA used to have where for a certain sum of money any rider can stump up the cash and claim the winning bike and buy it. I remember when one of the American privateer riders Bob Bailey claimed John Coopers works BSA for $10k. That would certainly cap costs!


I know it's been mentioned before here as well, but 2 strokes would also significantly reduce costs and I am pretty sure that modern day 2 strokes are just as environmentally friendly as the 4 strokes.


I would just like to see more interesting bikes, and by more interesting I don't mean more wings or appendages on them.




#2 Dewie

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 14:49

Bloody hell man your hard to please.

   We have never had such close racing, at times we have half a second covering the top 20 or so bikes in qualifying, and when was the last time anyone got lapped 

#3 brands77

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 15:06

Yes, agree, I like the closeness of the racing, MotoGP is closer too - gone are the days when Agostini would lap there entire field (actually that was before my time). But for me the sport is also about the bikes and I like the technical side of it. Looking at the different bikes for me was almost as interesting as watching the races. I just don't get that side of it now.


These might be 500c examples, but I didn't mind that the BSL was crap, it was interesting to look at afterwards. The Elf's never won anything but they were great, as was the Fior. You wouldn't be able to get anything like Katayama's 3 cylinder 350 Yamaha now. In the 250cc there may have been loads of TZ Yamahas, but there were Spondon frames, Bakker frames, Cobas frames, Armstrong carbon frames, Waddon monoques and the list goes on.


I think we can still get really close racing, because the riders are now much closer in skills than before, and also we can get the technical variation too.

Edited by brands77, 31 August 2022 - 15:11.

#4 tonyed

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 17:03

Totally agree with Brands77.

Todays racing might be close but it is artificially close with silly little 250cc 55bhp Moto3 engines which should be confined to kids racing.

Moto2 is about as exciting as watching paint dry and MotoGP is all about tyres.

4 strokes should be confined to cars - bikes are ideally suited to 2 strokes, but that is not what Honda wanted and look at the 'Evil Empire' now. Couldn't design a shoe box worth the name.

Basically, as said, a few manufacturers (see badge engineering thread)

No innovation, apart from ridiculous wings and even more ridiculous squatting chassis's. 

What does it all lead too. Some of the most hideous road bikes ever manufactured from practically all the big players. Monstrous heaps of crap I wouldn't insult a skip with. 

But that is modernity, isn't it, where everything looks the same, risk is frowned upon, the masses subjugated, the lunatics running the asylum. The descent of man in full tilt  :down:

Lets face it once the money men take over the games over, it's just business from then on.

There was a site some years back called 'GP eye candy' or something like that. Had hundreds of photos of the mechanics working on the bikes at GPs. The machines stripped down between each session, great stuff.

What do we see now. Some spotty yoofs with lap tops, looking at 'data', 'mechanics' (probably called 'race engineers') polishing the screen. Press officers doing what the press do best, embellishing and distorting facts. Chefs preparing chicken and pasta for the masses of other team staff and VIPs (very idle people). 'F' all to do with racing. 

All looks and smells a bit like F1 now  :wave:  

Yes I am an old fart (72) who raced bikes back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Great days and I am probably looking back through rose tinted lenses but todays racing with MOTOGP struggling to put 22 bikes on the grid is beginning to look like the beginning of the end.

I have no doubt that the withdrawal of Suzuki won't be the last factory leaving the ship. Too expensive and too hyped, but compared with football still encouragingly sane.

I have to decide whether to run a factory GP team next year (obviously I have to purchase a factory as well) or buy a tattooed 'Carlos Kickaball' with a silly haircut and an even more ridiculous Brazilian name like 'Donki' for 70 million who wants 300 grand a week just to kick a ball who by this time in two years I won't be able to offload to a struggling second division club. :rolleyes:  Choices, choices  :smoking:

Like we have museums of old race bikes does football have museums of old footballers - Oh yes sorry there is one, it's called 'Sky Sports'  :p   


I am working on an AI race suit, fully programable. You program it by downloading the talent of your favorite racer in fully digital format which my company 'AI Race Skins' clones from the rider of your choice. Just put it on, zip it up, mount your machine and suddenly you ride just like 'Fabio Quartararo' or 'Mark Marquez' or 'Johan Zarco'.

The 'Marquez' and 'Zarco' models you purchase in quantities of 5 to cater for the inevitable multiple crashes experienced with these models. 

The Moto3 versions also comes with a special AI helmet which renders the brain inoperable for added authenticity.  :up:

Edited by tonyed, 01 September 2022 - 10:16.